I'd say the Merged Zamasu in the manga is about on par with Merged Zamasu in the anime upon first appearance, maybe when he had the Halo behind his back. This oneAvatarReiko wrote:How does Manga Merged Zamasu compared to his anime counterpart?
It's kind of a hot topic at the moment and it really depends on who you ask. Given their fight and visual cues you could place Gohan anywhere from "about equal to SS2 Goku" to "equal to SSB Goku".RandomGuy96 wrote:So what's the story these days? Ultimate Gohan ~ SSB Goku?
Yep. Magazine previews also noted "Gohan displays enough power to hold his own against Goku, showing that he's grown stronger than ever before". He's definitely getting there, regardless if you like the hand wavy-ness of the plot or not. After what they did with Future Trunks I'm not surprised in the least.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Given the narration, the previous episode's dialogue and storyboard, and the previous episode's footage of Gohan taking on SSB/KK Goku being overlayed with said narration, it's a reasonable assumption to make that Gohan is at the very least approaching SSB Goku's level.RandomGuy96 wrote:So what's the story these days? Ultimate Gohan ~ SSB Goku?
Maybe place him a bit lower, but definitely approaching that realm.
It's not like I'm against it aprioristically, but there are plenty of counter-arguments to be considered. Gohan stated also that he was fully powered right before he faced SS2 Goku: are we supposed to believe he showed his full power and then started fighting at 1/1000 of his true strength? Also, why would Goku go SS2 after seeing Gohan's full might already? If Gohan wanted to fight Goku "seriously" couldn't he have cornered him immediately by raising his ki?Kagari wrote:Yep. Magazine previews also noted "Gohan displays enough power to hold his own against Goku, showing that he's grown stronger than ever before". He's definitely getting there, regardless if you like the hand wavy-ness of the plot or not. After what they did with Future Trunks I'm not surprised in the least.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Given the narration, the previous episode's dialogue and storyboard, and the previous episode's footage of Gohan taking on SSB/KK Goku being overlayed with said narration, it's a reasonable assumption to make that Gohan is at the very least approaching SSB Goku's level.RandomGuy96 wrote:So what's the story these days? Ultimate Gohan ~ SSB Goku?
Maybe place him a bit lower, but definitely approaching that realm.
Leaving aside the whole "he trained one night = he's a bazillion times stronger", I could just state again that it doesn't "absolutely any sense" to claim something amounts to "true power" if he's hiding a nearly unfathomable amount of ki in reserve. Or how it also doesn't make much sense to lie about his full power in the beginning; it appeared like he wanted to test himself against Goku's ultimate form, and showing such an enormous gap in their powers would have at least acted as an incentive for his father to fight at full strength.ZombieVito wrote:It makes absolutely no sense for Gohan to say again "Here's my full power" if he was fighting SSJ2 Goku at max.
He's SSB tier. People need to get over it already.
★ ~ƬΉΣ ӨПΣ ЩΉӨ ЩIᄂᄂ ΣПDЦЯΣ~ ★The problem with this line of thought is that it looks and feels like Gohan was just yet to tap into his former Buu saga power in all forms, not just in his "Ultimate" state. It's pretty evident when you watch the episode: Piccolo trashes Super Saiyan Gohan around and reprimands him because he's unable to evoke his "original power"; it's only much later in the fight that he asks Gohan to fight seriously and adds that Gohan also possessed another and more powerful form.supercat wrote:
Base Gohan / RoF Piccolo were both probably MSSJ tier, while Gohan's then SSJ form was probably a few notches short of his Buu saga Ultimate incarnation.
ZombieVito wrote:It makes absolutely no sense for Gohan to say again "Here's my full power" if he was fighting SSJ2 Goku at max.
He's SSB tier. People need to get over it already.
I'd say this is kind of overrating episode 88's Ultimate Gohan. The implication from Goku & Piccolo seemed to be that Gohan has been weaker than Ultimate Gohan in Super, up until episode 88. I'd say SSJ2 Gohan (88) is still weaker than Super Boo, while Piccolo is approaching that level.supercat wrote:17, Gohan, Frieza, and one might even argue, Piccolo are all presumably leagues above any form of Buu at this point. Why would Goku go SSB just to fight with a fraction of his power? Times have changed, the Buu saga's finest are mere fodders at this point.
Tagoma going on about Base Gohan being the strongest out of the group likely holds more validity than people are giving credit for. Verbal recognition of one's power is usually there to give some transparency to otherwise ambiguous power scales. With that in mind, I would say the following power scale isn't all that farfetched.
Ultimate Gohan (vs Goku) > > Ultimate Gohan (vs Piccolo) > / = Piccolo (current unweighted) > SSJ2 Gohan (vs Piccolo) > / = Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc) > Piccolo (current weighted) > Super Buu > SSJ Gohan (vs Piccolo) > Tagoma > Base Gohan > Piccolo (RoF)
Base Gohan / RoF Piccolo were both probably MSSJ tier, while Gohan's then SSJ form was probably a few notches short of his Buu saga Ultimate incarnation.
★ ~ƬΉΣ ӨПΣ ЩΉӨ ЩIᄂᄂ ΣПDЦЯΣ~ ★Base Gohan having the lead in power actually makes the most sense from multiple standpoints in my opinion. Keeping that in mind, if Base Gohan was notably stronger than Piccolo (who presumably should be around a Cell Jr), then going SSJ should at least place him above some of the weaker forms of Buu.LowRyder2005 wrote:The problem with this line of thought is that it looks and feels like Gohan was just yet to tap into his former Buu saga power in all forms, not just in his "Ultimate" state. It's pretty evident when you watch the episode: Piccolo trashes Super Saiyan Gohan around and reprimands him because he's unable to evoke his "original power"; it's only much later in the fight that he asks Gohan to fight seriously and adds that Gohan also possessed another and more powerful form.supercat wrote:
Base Gohan / RoF Piccolo were both probably MSSJ tier, while Gohan's then SSJ form was probably a few notches short of his Buu saga Ultimate incarnation.
Gohan also hasn't any "real" feat in base to speak of during ROF: the weighted Piccolo fights Tagoma and loses in a heartbeat. Some minutes later an angered Gohan then takes on a Tagoma-Ginyu who is barely caring and is casually overwhelmed. The enemy characters labeling him as the strongest of the group can be justified in many ways; in-universe I have a much easier time guessing that Gohan was either able to use only a fraction of his Ultimate power in base (which puts him above Piccolo but below his regular Super Saiyan form, I guess; I mean, he reportedly can't tap into his full power, but maybe he could use just some of it?). We also know he's not been training recently and that even before discovering that, in both iterations, Krillin feels safe because even if they don't have Goku and Vegeta around "(they) have at least Majin Buu" on the team.
That or, more probably, Gohan was in base but the characters in question were somehow able to guess he had a huge pool of power hidden within him. Not exactly as straightforward but not even unprecendented, given that Dabra and Babidi were somehow deducing that the three adult Saiyans dwarfed Piccolo in power during the Buu saga without ever witnessing Goku's and Vegeta's powers.
That day of training with Krillin must have really been something.Beyond wrote:In the back of everyone minds needs to be the possibility that 18 will "hax" her way up to 17 tier just because. I truly believe this is going to happen.
If 17 can get that strong just by ranging the shit outta some park, then I don't see why 18 wouldn't at least be close to him when she is shown to be training and sparring on-screen with an actual competent martial artist.Beyond wrote:In the back of everyone minds needs to be the possibility that 18 will "hax" her way up to 17 tier just because. I truly believe this is going to happen.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.
Thank you for your critiques; you make good points. I redid my entire power scaling using significantly more conservative numbers (and with Frieza at 120 mill) and triple checked my work with the manga feats and statements, and I ended up with Full Power Fat Buu being 6-7*Super Perfect Cell, and Ultimate Gohan being in the neighborhood of 1000 times base as a multiplier. If we assume SSB is only 2-3 times stronger than Ultimate, that makes SSB 5-7.5 times stronger than SS3, which is extremely disappointing, but goes right along with what the show has been showing us. That being said, this assumes 3 things: that current Ultimate shares the same multiplier that it used to, that base Gohan=base Goku, and that SSB is indeed only 2-3 times Ultimate, which is dubious.dragon boss z wrote:There are too many flaws with Frieza having a power level of 200 million. For example that goes against his 50% power being 60 mil, and he wasn't injured when he went 50%.avasatu wrote:No worries. Here is the video from Chuck, and I believe Seth has addressed it in his Discord chat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUNbuHeRRnk&t=7sDBZ Macky wrote: I apologize, I didn't mean to come off as condescending. I have no problem with Freeza being 200m at "Max power" but I don't see why you have to make shit up for it. As far as I am aware, there is no such entry that puts Freeza above 120m and says that he lost power because of the Spirit Bomb. I don't remember Seth making a video about this, can you share the link?
In all honesty, it's one of the less controversial, or at least least impactful things in my scaling. My saying Dabura is 1/1000th of max Fat Buu is more hand wavy, as well as me high balling current base Gohan's ultimate multiplier.
And are you actually saying Fat Buu is 1000 times stronger than Dabura? He was maybe 10x stronger than him.
Did you see Dbz Super Ep91? The announcer already stated gohan rivaled goku in strength. This was further stated when Toei Purposely showed the gohan/goku fight when goku went blue and barely any other parts of that fight. Its confirmd gohan is blue level...rather it be a very weak ssb level he is still in fact ssb power in strength.TheSaiyanGod wrote:This is contradictory to my see,Or at least Black was wrong.ZombieVito wrote:Vegeta got that strong because of anger, Black said it.BWri wrote: I just can't see RoSaT doing that much for Vegeta. He definitely got stronger, but a 60% increase seems insane for a solo training session, especially when he doesn't think three years of training with Goku will result in much difference.
Besides Vegeta needs to be stronger than a powered up version of SSR Black that was stronger than angered Goku that was stronger than SSR Black that kicked their ass.
It became clear that Vegeta got stronger due to his training, including in the NEP Goku says to show the results of his training to Black.
For me it does not make sense to be a Rage Boost, since everything indicated that he really got stronger
It may be that now, his Ultimate form is not able to give such a boost in his power, as it was in the Boo Saga. After all, Goku was much weaker than Gohan in that Saga.dragonball0900 wrote:I think a way to interpret Gohan's current strenght is going by how big of a boost his Ultimate form is. We know from the Buu saga that the Ultimate form was a big increase, even bigger than the SSJ3. Going by their match in base forms, both Goku and Gohan seemed pretty equal. If they were equal in base forms, then in SSJ and SSJ2 they would be equal. However, since Ultimate form is < SSJ3, then Ultimate Gohan is obviously far stronger than SSJ2 Goku.
How can we compare Ultimate Gohan with SSJB Goku? Well, the boost of SSJB we know is far stronger than the Ultimate form, therefore Goku in SSJB was far stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but far weaker than Ultimate Gohan in both his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.
But Goku clearly showed to be able to face Gohan only in the form of SSJ2, which already means enough thing. At most he would be stronger than Goku SSJ3.
The base form of Goku having Gotenks SSJ3 level now got kind of weird. After all, how could Gohan, who barely endured Piccolo in SSJ2, have such an increase in base form?
The only reason would be to consider the state '' Beyond god '' even though it has never been mentioned in the anime.
Ya I agree with Fat Buu being around that range compared to Cell.avasatu wrote:
Thank you for your critiques; you make good points. I redid my entire power scaling using significantly more conservative numbers (and with Frieza at 120 mill) and triple checked my work with the manga feats and statements, and I ended up with Full Power Fat Buu being 6-7*Super Perfect Cell, and Ultimate Gohan being in the neighborhood of 1000 times base as a multiplier. If we assume SSB is only 2-3 times stronger than Ultimate, that makes SSB 5-7.5 times stronger than SS3, which is extremely disappointing, but goes right along with what the show has been showing us. That being said, this assumes 3 things: that current Ultimate shares the same multiplier that it used to, that base Gohan=base Goku, and that SSB is indeed only 2-3 times Ultimate, which is dubious.
I'm sure that was stated for a reason....no matter what some of you guys feeel about the fight. this is clear indiciation of gohans power level.Cabba wrote:Thanks appreciate it, i took my time thinking to post it and even while posting i thought of new possibilities which is why that post is all over the place. I wanted to post as many possibilities (reasonable) that i could think, so many of them complement each other.TheSaiyanGod wrote: Really, this is an impressive explanation, it makes sense.
I think it makes sense, that by transforming into SSB, energy begins to escape from your body in an incredible way.
Is so much energy, that to contain it inside the body is something that can cause it to break, which would already indicate why the Power Boost that gave Goku so great.
Not to mention that by sealing this energy, it can also leak, because it is extremely difficult to control within the body that amount of Ki struggling.
Basically, Vegeta has tried to minimize SSB weaknesses in a way other than Goku, a way in which he does not totally eliminate those weaknesses, even though he may be able to fight 100% for a short time.
While Goku found a way to dominate the SSB completely, without weaknesses, being able to be used constantly
I just think this would imply that the form has a much higher energy expenditure than the SSJ3, which I do not think. After all, we saw Vegeta turning into SSB against Black SSJ without hesitation, and fighting him for a long time
After reading the latest chapter what i think Vegeta does is release small explosive burst of energy and switch back to SSG, this is all done in a split second. The amount of energy released is small/contained enough that his body is able to quickly regenerate/recover while on SSG
Vegeta is known to take fights seriously from the get go and finish enemies fast, which is why he went SSB against SSJ2 black
I used to think of it in terms of energy expenditure (SS3, Golden Freeza) too before this chapter, in the u6 arc manga Goku comments made it appear as though SSB consumed a shit ton of energy. But now with this new chapter i think its got to do more with the type of energy blue is and how it leaks, to fully control it you have to seal it. Once you complete SSB you can fight 100% without the drawbacks of Golden Freeza/SS3 but right now it puts a tremendous strain on the body which is why Goku said it was too early to try. All this feels very reminiscent of the first time Goku used Kaioken in the U6 arc, how the strain was too hard on his body and it was a incomplete technique
The whole containing/sealing also its very similar to when they contained their energy inside them on that other dimensional place and felt the power of the GodsYep yep, not to mention Vegeta seems to have taken note from Gokus book of relaxing/chilling when the time is due- On previous episodes he was seen casually around the house, perhaps its like whiss said what Vegeta needed is time off to relax from training and gain new perspectiveTheSaiyanGod wrote: Vegeta can stay there for over two months.
Is relative to the amount of power that he can have. He aims to overcome Goku, so his training will be much more intense, based on his rival (not to mention that there is little time left for the tournament, so he has to stay longer Strong fast).
With the power gains we're having in this Saga, it would not be surprising for Vegeta to get much stronger
Elder Kaioshin offering the Mystic ritual to goku was interesting as wellwolflonnie wrote:Some interesting tidbits in this episode:
- Gohan was stated to have a power that "rivals Goku's", by the narrator. So it's more likely, to him, to be around SSG/SSB levels.
- U6 was stated to be, from the Grand Priest, a rival to U7. Not just Hit. So Cabba & co., in the U6 tournament, must have been indeed very strong.
Well see how Gohan performs in the tournament, narrator usually makes broad statements
I'm hoping Cabba will be stronger than before
That would be really sweetBullza wrote:I'd like to them do something with Vegeta. In the anime it seems that no matter how strong he gets, Goku will always be stronger because of the Kaioken and the ability to increase his power multiple fold at a moment's notice.
I have no idea what they could do but it'd be nice if he had some kind of answer of his own for Kaioken.
One scenario which would be really cool is if Gokus secret transformation/trump card actually is complete SSB. Imagine Goku fighting Jiren and pulling it off then out of the blue another super powerful enemy appears and Vegeta goes ahead pulling off SSB surprising Goku saying something like, did you think you were the only one who keeps secrets kakarot?
