alakazam^ wrote:It's funny you have to point out you have the right to state your opinion and that I'm doing the same because I never said otherwise, it's not something I'm not aware of. What I said is that you have no real arguments to call him lazy and that's true because opinions aren't facts and the argument of 90's fans being bashed hold no water in this context. His art style changed. His mentality changed. His standards changed.
Do I really need to know if he went into English websites looking for Dragon Ball art? The man didn't want to have anything to do with Dragon Ball for decades and the fact he had no idea Dragon Ball was still this popular says a lot.
What do I care if people thought hair colors were stupid? What do I care if they got called stupid and unoriginal? I didn't do it, I don't know those people and my mind isn't made up by what others say. I've already noticed you have issues with people bashing 90's fans for something and loving it when Toriyama does it, but guess what? The ones who bashed probably still do and these aren't the same people loving what Toriyama does. It's exactly what you point out when the topic is Gohan or Piccolo.
dbzfan7 wrote:Again all I am seeing is someone pissed off I called him lazy on the design of blue. Get a damn grip. You have no proof either. As I said these are based on observations. So quit being so butthurt about my observation.
Yeah well, if this is the quality of conversation you want to have, I'm gonna step down. If you can't handle people criticizing what you say (even though you said many times people are allowed to complain lol) on a public forum, you should do something about it.
Your opinion is I don't know, you don't know, but you're wrong. Yeah, real good conversation there. Thanks.
I never said he went to english websites. There's a WHOLE other fandom in japan didn't you know? I find it highly unlikely he hasn't seen any fan art. But I am not saying that swayed him in anyway. My big point is recolours even on this very forum were hated. I even suggest before blue was a thing that maybe everyone should have a different SSJ God look/colour. It was shot down immediately as some power rangers garbage. Yet now all the sudden it's amazing that it's happening?
Something you don't even know. I've been around. Many many places. The hate in the early day was massive for recolours. Anyone who did it is accused of being lazy or unimaginative. There are some people who still see that, but the majority I've seen suddenly approve because LOLZ TORIYAMA IS BAE!
If your contribution is "You can have your opinion that has no support just like mine, but you're wrong." Then yeah don't bother. It's a nice double standard to have where both sides go off observation with no support, but that other guy is wrong cause dammit how dare he go against my definition of lazy. I don't think Toriyama is overall lazy, but he definitely has lazy moments just like anyone else. He busted his butt making the manga. He busted his butt making the script of BOG. I don't think much thought was put into SSJB and some other things, especially considering how we barely know much of it and some history that was skimmed by.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I think it's a bit unfair to assume Toriyama was lazy on that one, since we don't know what Toriyama went through during the process of creation of Super Saiyan Blue. We don't know if he considered many ideas and ended up liking a hair recolor and a slight skinny body more. The animators added a eletrical aura and possibly overlooked the body shape. At least for me, it feels different. I wouldn't say original, but different. Seeing what he did with Super Saiyan God though, I can understand the sentiment.
Hugo Boss wrote:I think it's a bit unfair to assume Toriyama was lazy on that one, since we don't know what Toriyama went through during the process of creation of Super Saiyan Blue. We don't know if he considered many ideas and ended up liking a hair recolor and a slight skinny body more. The animators added a eletrical aura and possibly overlooked the body shape. At least for me, it feels different. I wouldn't say original, but different. Seeing what he did with Super Saiyan God though, I can understand the sentiment.
I'm not saying I'm right and he's a lazy bum. I think this was merely a lazy design, and he could do better. I used to hate more on SSJ God, but after seeing SSJB, it at least tried something while staying simple. I'm also bugged by how "official" suddenly makes bad ideas, good ideas. I can't say everyone thought the same way about these design choices back then, but I find it quite something when merely 3 years ago an idea I thought might be cool to differentiate SSJ God was called dumb, but now it's not cause it actually happened in a sense. I've seen him do better, and I believe he could do better. Even his art style I think devolved over the years. I don't think he's an overall lazy person, hell no. But this was really uninspired and feels like an easy way out. More so when the lore behind it is barely existent.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm not saying I'm right and he's a lazy bum. I think this was merely a lazy design, and he could do better. I used to hate more on SSJ God, but after seeing SSJB, it at least tried something while staying simple. I'm also bugged by how "official" suddenly makes bad ideas, good ideas. I can't say everyone thought the same way about these design choices back then, but I find it quite something when merely 3 years ago an idea I thought might be cool to differentiate SSJ God was called dumb, but now it's not cause it actually happened in a sense. I've seen him do better, and I believe he could do better. Even his art style I think devolved over the years. I don't think he's an overall lazy person, hell no. But this was really uninspired and feels like an easy way out. More so when the lore behind it is barely existent.
No no, I got your point. Personally, I don't think "official" always translates into a good idea. For example, I relutantly accepted Freeza's revival and his golden form doesn't please me as much as I wanted, but I usually try to be okay with it. I work in an office where we just create ideas from scratch to offer to newcomers entrepreneurs. We priorize simplicity over complexity, so the client can understand. Sometimes we have a big headache during the process of creation, specially when the client is not giving us any feedback. When we receive "bad news", it's kinda frustating, because we went through a lot of trouble to elaborate "x" project to that "x" person. I may be softening a bit the subject and perhaps I'm talking about something completely different, but I hope I made my point across.
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm not saying I'm right and he's a lazy bum. I think this was merely a lazy design, and he could do better. I used to hate more on SSJ God, but after seeing SSJB, it at least tried something while staying simple. I'm also bugged by how "official" suddenly makes bad ideas, good ideas. I can't say everyone thought the same way about these design choices back then, but I find it quite something when merely 3 years ago an idea I thought might be cool to differentiate SSJ God was called dumb, but now it's not cause it actually happened in a sense. I've seen him do better, and I believe he could do better. Even his art style I think devolved over the years. I don't think he's an overall lazy person, hell no. But this was really uninspired and feels like an easy way out. More so when the lore behind it is barely existent.
No no, I got your point. Personally, I don't think "official" always translates into a good idea. For example, I relutantly accepted Freeza's revival and his golden form doesn't please me as much as I wanted, but I usually try to be okay with it. I work in an office where we just create ideas from scratch to offer to newcomers entrepreneurs. We priorize simplicity over complexity, so the client can understand. Sometimes we have a big headache during the process of creation, specially when the client is not giving us any feedback. When we receive "bad news", it's kinda frustating, because we went through a lot of trouble to elaborate "x" project to that "x" person. I may be softening a bit the subject and perhaps I'm talking about something completely different, but I hope I made my point across.
Even with SSJ God, which I don't hate nearly as much anymore, I kinda theorize that once something is official, there's nothing that can be done. Look at the people in the DBM threat who hate the new Cold look. If that were official I'm sure it would still be hated, but eventually it would grow on people. It'd grow because there's no pretending or ignoring it. Fanwork is easy to dismiss. But dismissing something official is hard when it won't go away. I've seen the opinions on Episode of Bardock remain bad because it's a what if so it can be disregarded. With Minus, some people still hate it, but it's grown on a lot of people anyways since that is now THE backstory. I feel a cope mechanism is used with something official to alleviate any pain, while with something that can be ignored, usually has the same opinion that goes strong.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
kinisking wrote:
Lol watch another show if you want someone scary. Goku just isn't that type of character. Never has been
Tell me about it...
Goku was never a saint or a typical good guy!
Seriously? An oozaru picture and a standard SSJ3 face?
These forms show that the more power Goku ends up drawing the more ruthless he becomes even in his personality. I think that was something he even stated himself.
kinisking wrote:
Lol watch another show if you want someone scary. Goku just isn't that type of character. Never has been
Tell me about it...
Goku was never a saint or a typical good guy!
Lol Goku hasn't gone oozaru since dragonball. SS3 isn't scary. Where's the first one from? And goku isnt a typical good guy but he's by no means scary
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
dbzfan7 wrote:I'm not saying I'm right and he's a lazy bum. I think this was merely a lazy design, and he could do better. I used to hate more on SSJ God, but after seeing SSJB, it at least tried something while staying simple. I'm also bugged by how "official" suddenly makes bad ideas, good ideas. I can't say everyone thought the same way about these design choices back then, but I find it quite something when merely 3 years ago an idea I thought might be cool to differentiate SSJ God was called dumb, but now it's not cause it actually happened in a sense. I've seen him do better, and I believe he could do better. Even his art style I think devolved over the years. I don't think he's an overall lazy person, hell no. But this was really uninspired and feels like an easy way out. More so when the lore behind it is barely existent.
No no, I got your point. Personally, I don't think "official" always translates into a good idea. For example, I relutantly accepted Freeza's revival and his golden form doesn't please me as much as I wanted, but I usually try to be okay with it. I work in an office where we just create ideas from scratch to offer to newcomers entrepreneurs. We priorize simplicity over complexity, so the client can understand. Sometimes we have a big headache during the process of creation, specially when the client is not giving us any feedback. When we receive "bad news", it's kinda frustating, because we went through a lot of trouble to elaborate "x" project to that "x" person. I may be softening a bit the subject and perhaps I'm talking about something completely different, but I hope I made my point across.
Even with SSJ God, which I don't hate nearly as much anymore, I kinda theorize that once something is official, there's nothing that can be done. Look at the people in the DBM threat who hate the new Cold look. If that were official I'm sure it would still be hated, but eventually it would grow on people. It'd grow because there's no pretending or ignoring it. Fanwork is easy to dismiss. But dismissing something official is hard when it won't go away. I've seen the opinions on Episode of Bardock remain bad because it's a what if so it can be disregarded. With Minus, some people still hate it, but it's grown on a lot of people anyways since that is now THE backstory. I feel a cope mechanism is used with something official to alleviate any pain, while with something that can be ignored, usually has the same opinion that goes strong.
People hated GT even when it was ambiguous on whether or not it was canon. People hate on adult gohan. People hate on super. I still see a lot of hate for minus. People hate on a lot of things that's canon. Maybe it's just that people actually like ssj god and the rest?
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
dbzfan7 wrote:Even with SSJ God, which I don't hate nearly as much anymore, I kinda theorize that once something is official, there's nothing that can be done. Look at the people in the DBM threat who hate the new Cold look. If that were official I'm sure it would still be hated, but eventually it would grow on people. It'd grow because there's no pretending or ignoring it. Fanwork is easy to dismiss. But dismissing something official is hard when it won't go away. I've seen the opinions on Episode of Bardock remain bad because it's a what if so it can be disregarded. With Minus, some people still hate it, but it's grown on a lot of people anyways since that is now THE backstory. I feel a cope mechanism is used with something official to alleviate any pain, while with something that can be ignored, usually has the same opinion that goes strong.
People hated GT even when it was ambiguous on whether or not it was canon. People hate on adult gohan. People hate on super. I still see a lot of hate for minus. People hate on a lot of things that's canon. Maybe it's just that people actually like ssj god and the rest?
It was pretty mixed if not well liked back when it was the new thing when I was watching it. It was voted above the original Dragon Ball for a reason. It wasn't til way later til it garnered severe hate. There is not severe hate for Adult Gohan. Don't know where that comes from. The only hate I noticed was for some when they try to treat SSJ2 Gohan as the actual Gohan, when it's not how he normally acts. I don't see a lot of Minus hate no more as time like everything else made people seemingly accept it over time. Most of the hate from Super comes from the animation above everything else, or it retelling events people knew of. Otherwise people are pretty good with the current arc so far, with a little bumpy road at the beginning of it.
Some people do like SSJ God and the rest. No denying that. Some hate it to. I've see those ideas back then that everyone thought was dumb, but suddenly is now cool because it ascended into the actual series. Can't count the number of people who photoshop a different colour of Goku, and get an eye roll.
VejituhTheWarriorGuy wrote:Or you guys could just accept his opinion and stop white knighting Toriyama.
Nah that can't be done. Death to the infidel.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7, I think the problem is with the word lazy, if you traded the word with another, for example unimaginative. I doubt your opinion would be commented on, since is valid except for that word. Lazy is attacking the artist character and not commenting his art. Lazy is an insult, maybe it's more serious to me because we're from different cultures and there's a cultural gap.
But to me calling someone lazy is an insult if you can't prove it.
LightBing wrote:dbzfan7, I think the problem is with the word lazy, if you traded the word with another, for example unimaginative. I doubt your opinion would be commented on, since is valid except for that word. Lazy is attacking the artist character and not commenting his art. Lazy is an insult, maybe it's more serious to me because we're from different cultures and there's a cultural gap.
But to me calling someone lazy is an insult if you can't prove it.
I can agree with this. I did use uninspired too, but you're right. I guess lazy is being taken too seriously. I'm lazy. Toriyama has openly admitted to some lazy moments. I guess it's another case of different definitions again. I had this kind of discussion a while back where someone else didn't like how I defined something. I suppose I can just use uninspired. I wouldn't say thoughtless since there is some thought, even if it doesn't look like a whole lot.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
You know its his opinion right if he feels like its lazy then let it be i don't see a big deal out of this while i like bluper saiyans tori Could've done much better than something that can be seen in deviant art.
Reminder that Toriyama was drawing Dragon Ball originally as a largely black and white manga. He never really had the opportunity to make new forms that took advantage of changing colors (other than changing once to remove shading). There were never different forms that had different hues from one another, which also weren't black.
This recent material is Toriyama's first opportunity, really, to do this sort of design work, since it's largely been made for anime material.
The new forms are certainly minimalistic, but Toriyama's taking advantage of a certain medium for conveying change for the first time.
Zephyr wrote:Reminder that Toriyama was drawing Dragon Ball originally as a largely black and white manga. He never really had the opportunity to make new forms that took advantage of changing colors (other than changing once to remove shading). There were never different forms that had different hues from one another, which also weren't black.
This recent material is Toriyama's first opportunity, really, to do this sort of design work, since it's largely been made for anime material.
The new forms are certainly minimalistic, but Toriyama's taking advantage of a certain medium for conveying change for the first time.
Doesn't matter to me whether he had the opportunity back then or not. Nor if he had the idea back then or not. Though now lot's and lot's of photoshoppers should never ever get shit ever again . Whether it's Greyku, Greenku, or Rainbowku.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zephyr wrote:Reminder that Toriyama was drawing Dragon Ball originally as a largely black and white manga. He never really had the opportunity to make new forms that took advantage of changing colors (other than changing once to remove shading). There were never different forms that had different hues from one another, which also weren't black.
This recent material is Toriyama's first opportunity, really, to do this sort of design work, since it's largely been made for anime material.
The new forms are certainly minimalistic, but Toriyama's taking advantage of a certain medium for conveying change for the first time.
Doesn't matter to me whether he had the opportunity back then or not. Nor if he had the idea back then or not. Though now lot's and lot's of photoshoppers should never ever get shit ever again . Whether it's Greyku, Greenku, or Rainbowku.
Honestly, I don't mind as much what the design is as long as the explanation for why it looks like that works. For instance, Ultimate Gohan is basically regular Gohan with serious eyes. However, this works because we know that Gohan has gotten a huge power boost and is now full of confidence. SS Blue is basically just SS but blue, but we know that it's supposed to be SS with God Ki added so personally I think it works just fine. Plus give it some credit. The aura does have a very different look to it compared to regular SS and there is some interesting extra stuff added to how works too like how it has better ki control or something stupid like that. The thing about most of the fan art is that the majority of people who made it just gave Gohan green hair and said that it was SS 5 or something without giving it any proper explanation as to why it's green at all.
Also, at this point I kind of feel like you're just beating a dead horse. I mean you've been saying this over and over again since the Resurrection F movie came out. I don't know about others, but to me it's getting a bit annoying. You make great points on a lot of things, but a lot of times you kind of come across as a cynical asshole no offense. I mean this horse beating has gotten so old that me telling you you're beating a dead horse is now me beating a dead horse.
Also, it really bugs me how you think that people are so stupid that they just mindlessly like something just because it's canon. I find it insulting and very rude. I like SS Blue but I guess I only like it because it's canon.
. Whether it's Greyku, Greenku, or Rainbowku.