Unpopular DB opinions

[The Dark Knight]

What I find funny about GT and Super's placement in the timeline is that Toei initially wanted to set GT before the end of Z, but it was Toriyama who suggested setting it after in order to avoid their creativity being limited. Everything that worked about GT (mainly the changes to the status quo) would not have happened had it been set before the end of Z

[Hellspawn28]

I believe any feat before the RRA saga should not be taken too seriously as Dragon Ball was written as a gag manga. I always felt like Roshi blowing up the moon in DB was played for laughs. With the idea of "First he blew up a mountain and now the moon! How wacky is that lol!" as the series was still being written as mainly a gag manga.

Dragon Ball became more seriously when you had characters like Tao Pai Pai show up.

[WittyUsername]

I believe any feat before the RRA saga should not be taken too seriously as Dragon Ball was written as a gag manga. I always felt like Roshi blowing up the moon in DB was played for laughs. With the idea of "First he blew up a mountain and now the moon! How wacky is that lol!" as the series was still being written as mainly a gag manga.

Dragon Ball became more seriously when you had characters like Tao Pai Pai show up.

Dragon Ball “feats” in general shouldn’t be taken too seriously, but good luck telling that to the power-scalers.

[Hellspawn28]

Piccolo Daimao's strongest attack can wipe out only a city and Piccolo's strongest attack only wipe out an island, but Roshi is weaker than those two.

[Alruneia]

It might not be an exact match for an unpopular opinion, but I'm just gonna put this thought here: Trying to tap into the "adventure vibes of early Dragon Ball" is always a mistake. As in it didn't even work in early Dragon Ball itself. I'm leaning a bit on a reply VegettoEX made to a Reddit thread once where he brought up a couple of relevant interviews when I say this. Link to the full thing here, but I'll grab some excerpts:

Originally, we started Dragon Ball as a kind of road movie based upon Journey to the West but the ranking started to gradually decline. So we discussed about why this type of story wasn't resonating with readers and why we aren't doing well in the rankings. The conclusion we came to was that Goku, the protagonist, was not strong enough. That he didn't resonate with the readers very well. From there, we discussed a great deal about what Goku should be like. The answer was that Goku wants to get stronger and stronger. [...] In addition, to show how Goku became stronger we had a big tournament in the story. After all this, the ranking shot back up to the top again.

Even after the success of the first tournament in the story, we both thought at that point that Dragon Ball was not a strong manga. Something was missing. Again, we had lots of meetings and discussions. We then realized that we didn't have a good villain. [...] From there, we thought about what makes a good villain, what would a really evil villain be like. So I went through all the evil people I could think of from global history and introduced those to Toriyama. [...] From that, Piccolo was created.

This is all coming from Torishima, the one and only, but I think it helps prove my point. Early Dragon Ball wasn't working out, and Toriyama was pushed to pivot away from it, first to a way bigger focus on martial arts and fighting, and then over to the big villain-based story arcs that start with King Piccolo and continue until Buu. And then I guess Toei somehow missed this lesson, or forgot it by the time they started making GT? They should've known that the search for the Black Star Dragon Balls wasn't going to be popular. Even if they hadn't turned Goku into a kid, I still think GT would've been just as unpopular as it is today because they started it with that adventure story that called back to early Dragon Ball.
The Funi dub turned the first episodes of GT into "lost episodes" in order to skip them for a reason.
In the "modern" era of Dragon Ball, early Dragon Ball's struggle with finding success has definitely been forgotten. Toriyama's Dragon Ball gets treated as a whole rather than as 519 chapters released over the course of 10 years, and of course it's been a massive success as a whole, so the nuance of early Dragon Ball almost failing gets totally lost. So Toei/Shueisha/etc. started getting Toriyama's approval for, and involvement in, most modern Dragon Ball projects, because "Toriyama = Success" or something like that. Seemed to be working out well for Super, right? And then there was Daima. Toriyama was claimed to be heavily involved, and yet people barely even talk about Daima anymore. Why? Did the magic of Toriyama's name run out because he passed away? No way. Is it because it turned Goku and co. into kids just like GT? I doubt it. I think it's because Daima gave us another adventure story that called back to early Dragon Ball. It just doesn't work.

[The Dark Knight]

It might not be an exact match for an unpopular opinion, but I'm just gonna put this thought here: Trying to tap into the "adventure vibes of early Dragon Ball" is always a mistake. Early Dragon Ball wasn't working out, and Toriyama was pushed to pivot away from it, first to a way bigger focus on martial arts and fighting, and then over to the big villain-based story arcs that start with King Piccolo and continue until Buu. And then I guess Toei somehow missed this lesson, or forgot it by the time they started making GT? They should've known that the search for the Black Star Dragon Balls wasn't going to be popular. And then there was Daima. Toriyama was claimed to be heavily involved, and yet people barely even talk about Daima anymore. Why? I think it's because Daima gave us another adventure story that called back to early Dragon Ball. It just doesn't work.

I don't think GT and Daima (to a lesser extent) failed because they were adventure stories; they failed because they weren't good, plain and simple. The concept of visiting different planets has always been a fan favorite idea for years, the problem is that GT took us to the most unimaginative places you could think of. The Demon Realm was another fan favorite place fans wanted to explore for years, only to be treated to yet another unimaginative place. The Pilaf and Red Ribbon arcs may not have been the best received by fans at the time but no one can say the locations we visited were boring.

I remember watching both for the first time and always looking forward to where Goku and the gang would end up next; Toriyama's world building for those two arcs puts everything GT and Daima did to absolute shame. Muscle Tower, the Pirate cave, Mount Frypan, Pilaf's Castle, Korin's Land, etc. were all places bursting with life and imagination. On the flip side we have the money planet in GT... and Mini Namek in Daima...

Another issue that faced both GT and Daima was the pacing; they never let us stay in one location to appreciate it because they were constantly rushing to the next thing; this was never an issue in the original DB & Z. The Red Ribbon arc was 58 chapters and 49 episodes long; they took the time to actually explore these places. In DB, we spent 8 episodes in and around Muscle Tower, which was a very small village on earth. In GT, we spent that same number of episodes on 3-4 PLANETS. For a closer example, Z spent around 65 episodes on Namek. What's the rush ? How do you expect people to care about your adventure when you yourself clearly don't and just want to get it over with ?

"GT and Daima failed due to a lack of big fights" is what I always read, and to that I say no, that wasn't the reason. The Pilaf and Red Ribbon arcs also didn't have big fights every 5 minutes, but they still had shit happening. What was going on in Daima ? we were either watching Goku and friends walk around doing nothing, or flying around in their ship doing even less. What was going on in GT ? we were either watching Goku and friends sneaking around for...some reason, or...dancing . Do you see the problem that these two shows faced ? Goku's mini adventure in the Pirate Cave was far more interesting than anything GT and Daima ever did.

Here's the sad truth not many fans want to admit; Toriyama just wasn't a good writer anymore by the time he came back to the franchise, and the same applies to the writers working with him compared to those who worked with him in the past; same applies to the writers on GT.

[SupremeKai25]

I think that I vastly prefer the "large-scale, world-ending apocalypse" type stories instead of small-scale adventures, so I hope future stories will continue to give me what I want: a bad guy invading the Earth, threatening to destroy it, and large-scale stakes.

If Toriyama wanted to keep the door open for more "adventure" tales, then he shouldn't have introduced instant transmission or Nahare's Kai Kai that instantly nullifies any adventure. What's the point of an adventure when you can teleport from planet A to planet B in an instant? Nahare does't even need "coordinates" to use his teleportation.

GT wanted to be another "adventure" story, but it pivoted really quickly to a large-scale, end-of-the-world type conflict after like episode 20. And I feel like Daima was a nothing-burger.

EDIT - I just googled "why didn't Goku use Instant Transmission more often in GT?" and it's apparently because he got turned into a kid. You see the problem and why these stories are lame? To make the "adventure" work, GT had to nerf and cripple Goku so that he doesn't instantly resolve the plot, because the writers knew that Instant Transmission makes adventure worthless, because Goku can just "poof" into any planet he wants. What's the point of an adventure when you need to nerf your main character and make him lamer and weaker?

And for what? Just to go back to DBZ-style end of the world stories after less than 1/3 of the show.

[super michael]

I think that I vastly prefer the "large-scale, world-ending apocalypse" type stories instead of small-scale adventures, so I hope future stories will continue to give me what I want: a bad guy invading the Earth, threatening to destroy it, and large-scale stakes.

If Toriyama wanted to keep the door open for more "adventure" tales, then he shouldn't have introduced instant transmission or Nahare's Kai Kai that instantly nullifies any adventure. What's the point of an adventure when you can teleport from planet A to planet B in an instant? Nahare does't even need "coordinates" to use his teleportation.

GT wanted to be another "adventure" story, but it pivoted really quickly to a large-scale, end-of-the-world type conflict after like episode 20. And I feel like Daima was a nothing-burger.

EDIT - I just googled "why didn't Goku use Instant Transmission more often in GT?" and it's apparently because he got turned into a kid. You see the problem and why these stories are lame? To make the "adventure" work, GT had to nerf and cripple Goku so that he doesn't instantly resolve the plot, because the writers knew that Instant Transmission makes adventure worthless, because Goku can just "poof" into any planet he wants. What's the point of an adventure when you need to nerf your main character and make him lamer and weaker?

And for what? Just to go back to DBZ-style end of the world stories after less than 1/3 of the show.

In GT episode 4 Goku did try to use IT to teleport to the space ship, but it kept failing and teleporting Goku to the wrong location. Trunks says it must be the effects of the Dragon Ball turning Goku into a kid.

When Goku gains SSJ4 against Bebi Vegeta, he can use IT without any problem in his SSJ4. After Bebi Vegeta defeat he had to use IT in his SSJ4 to teleport everyone on earth before the earth exploded, however when he tried to rescue Piccolo and the kid he reverted back to his base form unable to use IT. Piccolo gave his ki to Goku, which allowed Goku to use IT in his base form without fail.

The earth blew up on episode 40 in GT.

[kiarasuraru]

There's also the matter of timing, I feel.
If they made a fabled ADOBENCHA Slice of Life hijinks thing while the franchise has a healthy output, as another one more thing to enjoy, I think it would be much much better received.
It's a matter of the cast too. You know where ADOBENCHA would actually work out? How about we actually finally send out Vegeta to U6 Salada to chill there and we explore the U6 Saiyan society? Tired point, but Daima? Send Goten and Trunks instead.
But in the current absolute state of the franchise? It could be the greatest SoL of all time that would make KyoAni at its peak cry bitter tears of jealousy and it would still be badly received because the majority of the fanbase wants the franchise to fucking move on with its life and escape this eternal limbo it's been for like half a decade or something I don't even know anymore.

It might not be an exact match for an unpopular opinion, but I'm just gonna put this thought here: Trying to tap into the "adventure vibes of early Dragon Ball" is always a mistake. Early Dragon Ball wasn't working out, and Toriyama was pushed to pivot away from it, first to a way bigger focus on martial arts and fighting, and then over to the big villain-based story arcs that start with King Piccolo and continue until Buu. And then I guess Toei somehow missed this lesson, or forgot it by the time they started making GT? They should've known that the search for the Black Star Dragon Balls wasn't going to be popular. And then there was Daima. Toriyama was claimed to be heavily involved, and yet people barely even talk about Daima anymore. Why? I think it's because Daima gave us another adventure story that called back to early Dragon Ball. It just doesn't work.

I don't think GT and Daima (to a lesser extent) failed because they were adventure stories; they failed because they weren't good, plain and simple. The concept of visiting different planets has always been a fan favorite idea for years, the problem is that GT took us to the most unimaginative places you could think of. The Demon Realm was another fan favorite place fans wanted to explore for years, only to be treated to yet another unimaginative place. The Pilaf and Red Ribbon arcs may not have been the best received by fans at the time but no one can say the locations we visited were boring.

I remember watching both for the first time and always looking forward to where Goku and the gang would end up next; Toriyama's world building for those two arcs puts everything GT and Daima did to absolute shame. Muscle Tower, the Pirate cave, Mount Frypan, Pilaf's Castle, Korin's Land, etc. were all places bursting with life and imagination. On the flip side we have the money planet in GT... and Mini Namek in Daima...

Another issue that faced both GT and Daima was the pacing; they never let us stay in one location to appreciate it because they were constantly rushing to the next thing; this was never an issue in the original DB & Z. The Red Ribbon arc was 58 chapters and 49 episodes long; they took the time to actually explore these places. In DB, we spent 8 episodes in and around Muscle Tower, which was a very small village on earth. In GT, we spent that same number of episodes on 3-4 PLANETS. For a closer example, Z spent around 65 episodes on Namek. What's the rush ? How do you expect people to care about your adventure when you yourself clearly don't and just want to get it over with ?

"GT and Daima failed due to a lack of big fights" is what I always read, and to that I say no, that wasn't the reason. The Pilaf and Red Ribbon arcs also didn't have big fights every 5 minutes, but they still had shit happening. What was going on in Daima ? we were either watching Goku and friends walk around doing nothing, or flying around in their ship doing even less. What was going on in GT ? we were either watching Goku and friends sneaking around for...some reason, or...dancing . Do you see the problem that these two shows faced ? Goku's mini adventure in the Pirate Cave was far more interesting than anything GT and Daima ever did.

Here's the sad truth not many fans want to admit; Toriyama just wasn't a good writer anymore by the time he came back to the franchise, and the same applies to the writers working with him compared to those who worked with him in the past; same applies to the writers on GT.

But really, all of this.
Badly written, terrible timing, unfitting casts. How can it catch fire like that? And I'll be honest, I swear like 50%, and that's lowballing it, praising the oh so fabled ADOBENCHA haven't touched OG even once. I'm always baffled whenever I hear someone say that Daima was "just like OG", or good lord, even worse, they say its just like Dragon Quest. Just what the fuck I am reading?

[Noah]

I prefer the original Dragon Ball that started in 1989 had its golden age in the 90s and ended with GT for me that whole Dragon Ball universe from the 90s was my Dragon Ball the true Dragon Ball but i like Kai Daima and Super i feel like the new Dragon Ball that started in Kai and Super was just made to make more money i think the Dragon Ball story it was perfectly finished in GT i prefer the old Vegeta the proud Saiyan to how Vegeta is portrayed in Super i prefer the original Bardock to the Bardock of Super i prefer the original Broly to the Broly of Super i like GT more as a sequel to Z than Super i like Super i enjoy it and i will watch the new content but the true Dragon Ball for me is the old Dragon Ball that ended with GT in the 90s

I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, honestly. I agree with most of what you said, although I'll admit I might be a bit biased since we all tend to look more fondly on the stuff we grew up with or watched first.

That said, I do agree that GT works better as a sequel to Z than Super does. At the same time, if we're judging them purely by how entertaining they are, I'd say Super is easily better than GT. It could've been even better too if it didn't have such rough art and animation at the beginning, along with some really poor characterization of characters we all love. Sometimes they barely even felt like themselves and came across more like parodies of their own characters, which, of course, really impacted my enjoyment of the show.

[WittyUsername]

When it comes to adventure stories in Dragon Ball, the Red Ribbon Army arc is easily considered the gold standard, but even then, it’s nowhere near as popular as the DBZ arcs or even Piccolo Daimao.

When it comes to Daima, I suppose the idea was that it would essentially be Toriyama’s personal spin on the initial premise of GT, while also celebrating the 40th anniversary of the franchise, but considering that the brand appears to have pivoted back to Super, it seems fair to say that Daima failed to leave much of an impression.

[The Dark Knight]

When it comes to Daima, I suppose the idea was that it would essentially be Toriyama’s personal spin on the initial premise of GT, while also celebrating the 40th anniversary of the franchise, but considering that the brand appears to have pivoted back to Super, it seems fair to say that Daima failed to leave much of an impression.

Of course it failed to leave an impression; they were so rushed to get out of there that by the time people caught on, the adventure was already over. The biggest thing holding Modern Dragon Ball back is its unwillingness to actually commit to anything, to gradually develop anything, to build up to anything, etc. it's always about getting to the next thing as quick as possible.

Character development once too multiple arcs to go through; Piccolo and Vegeta took 4 arcs each to reform into the good guys we know today. Beerus ? completely reformed by the end of his movie. Why not take the time to instead build to Beerus becoming a good guy; why rush through it in one story ? Same thing with Glorio and Arensu; one minute they're bad guys, but the next they're on the heroes' side.

The duration of the arcs was never an issue before, as the Red Ribbon, Namek, Cell, & Buu were all given between 49 and 92 episodes to properly tell their stories; nothing was rushed. Did they get slow at times ? sure, but I'd take a story that covers things too well over a story that ends up skipping certain parts. Imagine how much more impactful the Zamasu arc would've been if we got to spend time with him as an actual good guy, then watch him slowly switch over to the other side as time went on; that's how you tell a proper story.

The transformations are another issue in modern DB; they just pop out of nowhere without any build up or anticipation; Piccolo was given TWO in a row in a single movie. Ssj1 was teased in episode 66 before being reached by Goku in episode 95; Ssj2 was teased in episode 145 before being reaching by Gohan in episode 184, with everything in-between being trial and error by the characters to reach it; Once Goku and Vegeta declared in episode 205 that they were entering the tournament to test the results of their 7 years of training, we had to wait until episode 229 to see Vegeta's new power, and 245 to see Goku's.

[SupremeKai25]

When it comes to Daima, I suppose the idea was that it would essentially be Toriyama’s personal spin on the initial premise of GT, while also celebrating the 40th anniversary of the franchise, but considering that the brand appears to have pivoted back to Super, it seems fair to say that Daima failed to leave much of an impression.

Character development once too multiple arcs to go through; Piccolo and Vegeta took 4 arcs each to reform into the good guys we know today. Beerus ? completely reformed by the end of his movie. Why not take the time to instead build to Beerus becoming a good guy; why rush through it in one story ? Same thing with Glorio and Arensu; one minute they're bad guys, but the next they're on the heroes' side.

Beerus was never a bad guy, so this is a false equivalence. There is a difference between an evil mortal conqueror and a neutral god/force of nature whose job is to destroy things and so isn't actually evil.

Vegeta and Piccolo vs. Beerus are not supposed to be the same archetype of antagonist. Vegito and Piccolo were evil mortal villains. Beerus is a neutral force of nature/god.

Imagine how much more impactful the Zamasu arc would've been if we got to spend time with him as an actual good guy, then watch him slowly switch over to the other side as time went on; that's how you tell a proper story.

Considering how Goku Black and Zamasu are among the most popular of Toriyama's villains, I guess most people found his story impactful.

Never mind the fact that Zamasu is already one of the most unique villains Toriyama's created, by virtue of having some kind of supremacist or racist ideology that drives him, vs. most of the older villains who were just comically evil monsters. Zamasu is realistic and people like Zamasu exist IRL and in our history (Toriyama even designed Black/Zamasu's pants and boots to look like the Austrian painter guy), but I'm sure you'll never run into some weird bug thing that sucks people with a tail or some weird gum monster who turns people into chocolate.

Toriyama even said Zamasu's the most psychologically complex villain he's worked on (source: my signature).

[Kid Buu]

Just finished Daima, and I really enjoyed it and I preferred it over Super.

[The Dark Knight]

Vegeta and Piccolo vs. Beerus are not supposed to be the same archetype of antagonist. Vegeta and Piccolo were evil mortal villains. Beerus is a neutral force of nature/god.

Beerus switched pretty quickly from being neutral to siding with the heroes when possible; I think that shift should have been more gradual.

Considering how Goku Black and Zamasu are among the most popular of Toriyama's villains, I guess most people found his story impactful. Zamasu is already one of the most unique villains Toriyama's created, by virtue of having some kind of supremacist or racist ideology that drives him, vs. most of the older villains who were just comically evil monsters.

Now imagine how much more impactful he would've been had we actually seen him gradually lose his mind and descend into darkness. This would be a type of character we never got before, as instead of starting out with a villain and watching him become a good guy, we'd be starting out with a good guy and watching him become a bad one. Instead of rehashing the Future Trunks story line from Z, we'd instead go to universe 10 and help Zamasu try to stop some kind of evil (like the premise of the Buu arc) from enacting a plan to wipe out all mortals (0 mortal plan), but instead of seeing it through, he shifts his view points and instead starts working with said villain and even takes over his plans once defeated. The problem with the Black arc and Super in general is that the arcs were generally too short to do anything innovative like this; everyone involved was too worried about what comes next instead of focusing on the here and now.

I'm sure you'll never run into some weird bug thing that sucks people with a tail or some weird gum monster who turns people into chocolate.

Cell and Buu are good arcs period, whether by DB standards or Shonen standards in general, while the Zamasu arc is just good by Super's standards, which isn't exactly a high bar to reach. If you try to compare Zamasu to any arc from the original manga, or even worse, any arc from other Jump series, it completely falls flat on its face.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegeta and Piccolo vs. Beerus are not supposed to be the same archetype of antagonist. Vegeta and Piccolo were evil mortal villains. Beerus is a neutral force of nature/god.

Beerus switched pretty quickly from being neutral to siding with the heroes when possible; I think that shift should have been more gradual.

No, he hasn't. He's never helped the heroes out of altruism, and every time he helped them, it was out of convenience. He didn't care about Golden Freeza and let him destroy the world. He also didn't care about Goku Black in the other timeline and said it was their problem. He destroyed Zamasu only cuz they verified that he wanted to kill all the gods in the Present. He didn't care about Broly, and most infamously, he didn't care about Moro and abandoned the Earth to its fate. Beerus has told the earthlings to deal with their own problems numerous times, and if he helps them, it's only out of self-preservation or because they make good food.

Beerus isn't a good person and he's not comparable to Vegeta and Piccolo. He's a neutral force of destruction, a god whose job is to destroy things. He's lived for thousands of millions of years and doesn't care about mortal lives because they operate on a different scale.

Now imagine how much more impactful he would've been had we actually seen him gradually lose his mind and descend into darkness.

We did. Episodes 53-55 of the Super Anime. Three episodes are more than sufficient to flesh out a villain's descent into madness. My Hero Academia did it in half of one episode for All for One and it's the Anime of the Year.

we'd instead go to universe 10 and help Zamasu try to stop some kind of evil (like the premise of the Buu arc) from enacting a plan to wipe out all mortals (0 mortal plan), but instead of seeing it through, he shifts his view points and instead starts working with said villain and even takes over his plans once defeated.

No thank you. I like Zamasu because he is an independent villain who created his plan from scratch. I have no interest in tying him to another villain.

Cell and Buu are good arcs period, whether by DB standards or Shonen standards in general, while the Zamasu arc is just good by Super's standards, which isn't exactly a high bar to reach. If you try to compare Zamasu to any arc from the original manga, or even worse, any arc from other Jump series, it completely falls flat on its face.

I compared the Zamasu saga to those from the original and from other manga and I disagree. I think it's an interesting saga with a gripping plotline, entertaining characters to watch, cool fights, good voice acting, and it's all around an enjoyable expeience. Sure, it's got writing issues, like everything (no work of art is perfect), but I still think it's good and I'm happy I got to watch it. And this goes for most of the story arcs in Super.

Actually, I'm very excited for the anime adaptation of the Moro saga, because I know that they will pick an excellent voice actor for the goat warlock and make this saga so much more enjoyable to experience.

[PhantomSaiyan]

No thank you. I like Zamasu because he is an independent villain who created his plan from scratch. I have no interest in tying him to another villain.

One of the coolest things about him is literally that he teamed up with himself lol so yeah, another villain in the mix would ruin it.

[Scsigs]

Late to the GT discussion, GT didn't fail because they wanted to go back to the action adventure comedy of early DB. THAT was actually a good idea after DB turned into more of a somewhat stationary show where the action comes to the main characters & I genuinely mean that. GT failed for several reasons.
1. Burnout on the franchise after over a decade of the manga & animes being a constant thing. The manga started in 1984 while the first DB anime was '86. The manga ended in 1994 & the anime in '95. With that, there were 2 anime TV shows, 16 movies, 2 TV specials, & a lot of other media.
2. The way the manga & Z ended were an ending to the story. Toriyama was done writing those characters & the world & he wanted you to know it.
3. Unfortunately, the anime writers couldn't tell a lot of interesting stories to save their lives, which even they admitted to themselves.
4. Making Goku a kid again rather than maintain what Toriyama had done for years & have Goku be an adult, with the kid role being taken by new characters.
5. Continuity errors with not only the manga, but also the previous animes.
6. Inconsistent power scaling & logic of the universe (Toriyama also suffered from this at times, to be fair).
7. Bad pacing of the stories.
8. Not that interesting of ideas they DID do or just poor execution of what they had.

This is just MY shortlist, but yeah.