Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

I have a question for people.

Where do we put Kale's canon Legendary Super Saiyan form?

We know that Base form is weaker than SS1 form, which is weaker than an SS2 form, etc. This is just by nature the forms do not give a stronger boost.

Where would you guys put the canon LSS?

I have it as Base < SS1 < LSS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSB

[Cabba]

I know that the Ultimate form is not a transformation.
I consider it a '' state ''.

But she just releases all her hidden power when she uses it. And even without using this '' form '', he was able to rival Goku's base.

In fact, Vegeta did not say that Trunks SSJ2 had a power close to that of Goku SSJ3?
I think he did not say equal or superior

What I'm challenging is the notion that this ultimate state is a all or nothing state in which you need to be at full power. Why cant he use half, a quarter or even 10% of that power? do you know what % of his full power he used while fighting base goku? He even comments while fighting base Goku this isnt even close to my full power, punches Tien and proceeds to power up. See what I'm getting at?
Thats what I'm saying Gohan was already using his so called ultimate power when he fought Goku, he is using all the time, he has full control over his power

We are talking about the manga, and Vegeta did say Trunks transformation was nearly as powerful as SSJ3. This is evidence enough you can be SSJ(2) without going full power in the case of Goku and Trunks sparring

Vegeta's SSJ2 though was much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at least. I'm hesitant to say he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan because even though it appeared that way....recent info makes it seem like he wasn't that strong since the Buu saga. He easily could be though if he's well over fifty times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

What i dont get is why people assume only Vegeta had this ascended SSJ(2) form, the very same manga showed us Trunks use SSJ2 in two different tiers one which is SS2 and the other full power which is close to SSJ3
Goku just chose to not use that super powerful SSJ2 against trunks and for good reason it was way beyond trunks capabilities.

Trunks commented how even with his SS3 tier power he was nothing but fodder against black and while Vegeta SSJ(2) was raining down on Black he said Black was a bit more powerful than before. That alone puts Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 full power on ultimate Gohan tier at least

BTW which recent info are you talking about?

[Ki Breaker]

I have a question for people.

Where do we put Kale's canon Legendary Super Saiyan form?

We know that Base form is weaker than SS1 form, which is weaker than an SS2 form, etc. This is just by nature the forms do not give a stronger boost.

Where would you guys put the canon LSS?

I have it as Base < SS1 < LSS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSB

I will put a freshly unlocked LSS below SS2..
A trained thinned down version around SSB and higher

[Cabba]

I will put a freshly unlocked LSS below SS2..
A trained thinned down version around SSB and higher

I get its all up to the plot to dictate how strong a character or form gets, so anything is possible really
Having said it seems excessive to put this "LSS" on SSG tier let alone SSB and based on what evidence? Brolly himself never showed greater power than SSJ2 in the movies

Its only the video games and unofficial material that hypes him up as some super powerful being

Also thinned down? The nature of the transformation is being bulky

[Ki Breaker]

I will put a freshly unlocked LSS below SS2..
A trained thinned down version around SSB and higher

I get its all up to the plot to dictate how strong a character or form gets, so anything is possible really
Having said it seems excessive to put this "LSS" on SSG tier let alone SSB and based on what evidence? Brolly himself never showed greater power than SSJ2 in the movies

Its only the video games and unofficial material that hypes him up as some super powerful being

Also thinned down? The nature of the transformation is being bulky

I say this based on kale been shown to not have the bulky version in one image, combined the with the spoiler of her being trained after she unlocks LSS and the one of her being around jiren and the magical girl in the official thread..
It seems pretty clear what they are going for here..

Either way, it's not a discussion to have right now if concrete answer is what you are looking for

[Cabba]

I say this based on kale been shown to not have the bulky version in one image, combined the with the spoiler of her being trained after she unlocks LSS and the one of her being around jiren and the magical girl in the official thread..
It seems pretty clear to me what they are going for

Would you mind providing a links for the image, the spoiler and the official thread you mention. I'm legit out of the loop on this one.

By magical girl you mention the one fighting Vegeta SSJ in the opening? Why would her association with this character make her SSB tier?
Training could just mean to control this state in which she loses consciousness, also power doesnt just jump from SSJ2 tier to SSB all of sudden, her training could make her as powerful as Mr. Buu for instance. I fail to see how any of these things hint at God tier level. I would still really appreciate those links though

[Ki Breaker]

I say this based on kale been shown to not have the bulky version in one image, combined the with the spoiler of her being trained after she unlocks LSS and the one of her being around jiren and the magical girl in the official thread..
It seems pretty clear to me what they are going for

Would you mind providing a links for the image, the spoiler and the official thread you mention. I'm legit out of the loop on this one.

By magical girl you mention the one fighting Vegeta SSJ in the opening? Why would her association with this character make her SSB tier?

I am on the phone so checking the official thread for correct page right now is going to be a real pain man..

I can give you my word for the thin image we got with her ,the magical girl and jiren, and of the one of her training after her transformation..
But when the spoiler of her being around jiren came out I wasn't active on kanzenshuu, I only heard it from a user talking about it, so no promises there..

I am still confident she will be one of the top tier players, enough to give current mystic gohan a run for his money

[Simere]

I haven't seen anything about her training with LSSJ or Brianne/Jiren/Kale having comparable levels, but here's the image of the more thin look:

[Cabba]

I am on the phone so checking the official thread for correct page right now is going to be a real pain man..

I can give you my word for the thin image we got with her ,the magical girl and jiren, and of the one of her training after her transformation..
But when the spoiler of her being around jiren came out I wasn't active on kanzenshuu, I only heard it from a user talking about it, so no promises there..

I am still confident she will be one of the top tier players, enough to give current mystic gohan a run for his money

I know what you mean now, i went looking for thread with official on the title, i dont really check those masive threads as I'm limited on time dindt really think cool info like that would be posted there and only there

Now after seeing the pic, here are my thoughts:
The image is just par for the course promo material where they introduce new characters, we seen many of these promo materials featuring different characters. Just because the tree of them are to together that doesn't mean they have the same power. In fact that Brienne character might get trashed by SSJ Vegeta. And the slim version looks like brolly SSJ with the control necklace that kept his power in check remember the one with blue hair he was slim in this state as well. So if anything thats just kale without going into berserk mode, the bulky transformation is still where the real power is at

I dont doubt she is going to be more powerful, but is one thing to fight Mystic Gohan and another entirely to match SSB. The fight between her and Gohan would be something to behold and a perfect match really though i still see gohan coming on top

I havent found the training pic, whenever you get around it would you mind posting it? I think the training will help he control the power more than anything to prevent her going into berserk mode without rational thought

[ChiefWamsutta]

Vegeta's SSJ2 though was much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at least. I'm hesitant to say he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan because even though it appeared that way....recent info makes it seem like he wasn't that strong since the Buu saga. He easily could be though if he's well over fifty times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

What i dont get is why people assume only Vegeta had this ascended SSJ(2) form, the very same manga showed us Trunks use SSJ2 in two different tiers one which is SS2 and the other full power which is close to SSJ3
Goku just chose to not use that super powerful SSJ2 against trunks and for good reason it was way beyond trunks capabilities.

Trunks commented how even with his SS3 tier power he was nothing but fodder against black and while Vegeta SSJ(2) was raining down on Black he said Black was a bit more powerful than before. That alone puts Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 full power on ultimate Gohan tier at least

BTW which recent info are you talking about?

This could be an interesting idea. In Ep. 90, Base Goku and Base Gohan were thought to be equal. Goku could have used a stronger version of SS2 equal to Ultimate Gohan Buu Saga during that portion of the fight. It would match Gohan's power. Then SSBlue Goku was above Ultimate Gohan Full Power. SSB KK Goku was way above and knocked him out.

[Cabba]

Pretty much how i see it, to add to what you said i believe "base gohan" fighting Goku is way stronger than his previous self. He doesnt transform into mystic gohan he IS mystic all the time, Gohan and can control the power he uses
Base Goku was also able to tank Piccolos super charged attack, the same piccolo who beated SSJ2 gohan and took "mystic" by surprise from the back. So that alone is evidence Base Goku was SS2 tier at least while fighting Gohan

BTW it was hinted Gohan got stronger than the majon saga, since piccolo said he could still get stronger. So that fight with SSJ2 likely was on higher level than old ultimate Gohan

[Abra kadabra]

What i dont get is why people assume only Vegeta had this ascended SSJ(2) form, the very same manga showed us Trunks use SSJ2 in two different tiers one which is SS2 and the other full power which is close to SSJ3
Goku just chose to not use that super powerful SSJ2 against trunks and for good reason it was way beyond trunks capabilities.

Trunks commented how even with his SS3 tier power he was nothing but fodder against black and while Vegeta SSJ(2) was raining down on Black he said Black was a bit more powerful than before. That alone puts Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 full power on ultimate Gohan tier at least

BTW which recent info are you talking about?

That's a lot of hoop jumping, assumptions and forcing Goku . Mixing the manga and anime to fit your head cannon. Vegeta's SSJ2 became stronger than SSJ3 goku through a rage boost (that apparently stayed for some reason) and Trunk's as strong as SSJ3 through training. No where is it implied, hinted, shown or told that Goku's SSJ2 is anywhere near Trunks or Vegeta's.

[DBZ Macky]

No where is it implied, hinted, shown or told that Goku's SSJ2 is anywhere near Trunks or Vegeta's.

SS Goku fared off better against Hit than SSB Vegeta did at 10% of his power. In the Manga, of course. SS2 Goku would be close to 20% of SSB going by that (assuming the regular multipliers still apply).

[Cabba]

That's a lot of hoop jumping, assumptions and forcing Goku . Mixing the manga and anime to fit your head cannon. Vegeta's SSJ2 became stronger than SSJ3 goku through a rage boost (that apparently stayed for some reason) and Trunk's as strong as SSJ3 through training. No where is it implied, hinted, shown or told that Goku's SSJ2 is anywhere near Trunks or Vegeta's.

Claiming Vegetas SSJ2 is a rage boost that stayed is more of an assumtion and strecht that anything i said
There is not head cannon here, just the evidence presented in the manga and anime. You also got it confused, in not mixing them but explaining them separately if they converge at some point that's just coincidence

For starters Vegeta does not have the rage SSJ look (bulky body and white eyes) on the black arc
Goku and Vegeta trained together with whiss they raised their Base and SSJ power way past their limits
You are guilty of what you are accusing me off: Jumping to conclusions, just because Goku did not use the more powerful SSJ2 for does not mean he doesn't have it and whats more your are "hoop jumping" (i.e BoGs rage boost that stayed) to justify it

The manga already showed with trunks earlier SSJ2 transformation and then powering it up to SS3 tier, that you have the choice of using vanilla SSJ2 and a more powerful SSJ2 form. This is evidence enough to justify Goku using a vanilla SSJ2 against trunks. The most reasonable explanation is that Goku didn't do this because he didn't think Trunks could handle it. After all Trunks only showed his ascended SS2 form after Goku went SS3

It makes no sense to assume for this isolated case that Vegeta has a more powerful SS2 form that Goku just because of the omission of Goku using it, it is implied they have same training power and progression with Goku being one step ahead

SS Goku fared off better against Hit than SSB Vegeta did at 10% of his power. In the Manga, of course.

This too

[buutenks]

I wouldnt really combine anime with manga. Since they both do their thing differently.

[Hugo Boss]

Where do we put Kale's canon Legendary Super Saiyan form?

She is clearly stronger than SS Cabba and her blast can be deflected by SS2 Caulifla. Since she calmed down before showing more of her power, I don't have a safe bet.

[emperior]

We don't even know if Kale is equal to Caulifla in her base. She probably isn't, Kale should be weaker than Cabba, probably even by a lot and that's why she was so unsecure of herself.
I believe her LSSJ form gives her a greater boost than what Super Saiyan 2 would. It could be a 200x boost, though her power keeps rising (like Broly)

[ChiefWamsutta]

We don't even know if Kale is equal to Caulifla in her base. She probably isn't, Kale should be weaker than Cabba, probably even by a lot and that's why she was so unsecure of herself.
I believe her LSSJ form gives her a greater boost than what Super Saiyan 2 would. It could be a 200x boost, though her power keeps rising (like Broly)

SS2 Caulifla
.
LSS Kale
.
.
SS1 Cabba = SS1 Caulifla
.
.
Base Cabba = Base Caulifla
.
.
Base Kale

NOTE: Cabba and Caulifla are slightly different in power, as they discussed who would be stronger in SS1. For the intent of this I made them equal. The jump to SS2 and LSS was closer, yeah, and looking at it more I could see it being slightly higher than SS2 like at 200 x Base. It definitely is important to note that Kale's Base is much lower than the other two.

[TAF108]

I wouldn't really combine anime with manga. Since they both do their thing differently.

I agree. The continuities are different. You can't really use one to justify or explain something in another. SSJB is in both for example, but they're used far differently and even function differently.

[Bullza]

I like to use the manga when it's convenient. There's been things that have happened in the manga that have been a little questionable and there's been other things people have had questions about it and a few times the manga has answered those questions.

For example in the manga they said that SSJB Vegito is probably stronger than Beerus something that wasn't said in the anime and I remember people talking about whether he was or not back when he appeared.

So I have that as being true for the anime at least until it's contradicted.

Zamasu being weaker than SSJ2 Trunks and Base Black is another one.