Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

I'm still not seeing it at all.

It makes no sense for the base Saiyans to be that strong and then for Freeza to be taken aback by Goku's power jump when he transforms into a SSJB when he'd still be no match for Freeza.

It'd be a transformation that'd taken him from a 6 to a 7?

The gap between base and SSJB was also large enough for Vegeta to still need to transform to fight a weakened Golden Freeza.

There's nothing to suggest Goku regained his SSJG strenght in base. Vegeta never became a God at all yet he was able to keep up with him just due to the intense training.

Also different translations say different things about SSJB. For one being that it is simply a Super Saiyan that has the power of a SSJG. SSJB itself apparently has nothing to do with SSJG.

Vegeta said he had "the power of a God" but not that he was one.

I'd say they just got Super duper strong from all of Whis' training and they somehow got this new Super Saiyan form which just has similiar strenght to SSJG.

Why would Beerus want to take on Base Goku and Base Vegeta, if their power is weaker than SSJG Goku?
Goku and Vegeta most likely do not have SSGSS and if they do I doubt Beerus knows about it now.

[Hugo Boss]

They can still transform into Super Saiyan and Beerus knows that. But even so they are no match for him. After acquiring Super Saiyan Blue they will probably be quite there.

[GodVegetto91]

I'm still not seeing it at all.

It makes no sense for the base Saiyans to be that strong and then for Freeza to be taken aback by Goku's power jump when he transforms into a SSJB when he'd still be no match for Freeza.

It'd be a transformation that'd taken him from a 6 to a 7?

The gap between base and SSJB was also large enough for Vegeta to still need to transform to fight a weakened Golden Freeza.

There's nothing to suggest Goku regained his SSJG strenght in base. Vegeta never became a God at all yet he was able to keep up with him just due to the intense training.

Also different translations say different things about SSJB. For one being that it is simply a Super Saiyan that has the power of a SSJG. SSJB itself apparently has nothing to do with SSJG.

Vegeta said he had "the power of a God" but not that he was one.

I'd say they just got Super duper strong from all of Whis' training and they somehow got this new Super Saiyan form which just has similiar strenght to SSJG.

Well, actually that post of mine was secretly meant for you indeed. Glad you picked up. (Because i know you're a Base Saiyan beyond god is super weak kinda guy)
No i've already explained everything and posted all the evidence. Why is it so hard for you to believe that they're ssj god level?? Battle of gods well over 2 years ago "strongly implied" base Goku got MOST of the god power..
Also.. Vegeta transforming into super saiyan against Freeza doesn't mean anything at all. Since he could've just done it for convinience purposes. That it would be easier to take him out. And also to show Frieza he finally had become one himself. But yeah the power increase seems to be super small. From a 6 to 7.5
Base Goku and Vegeta: 6
SSGSS 7.5
Golden Frieza: 8
Beerus 10
Also about the translations.. The one i posted is the correct one..

Spoiler:

Dragon Team's

But let's take a look at the feats shall we

BoG: Base Goku was keeping more or less up with Beerus for a short while and he even managed to knock him in his gut soo hard.. He went completely berserk!

Super: Base Goku survived(and got back up) from a finger flick blow that was said to be a blow "with all of his mind and heart being put into that one"..
Feat 2. He basically punched an energy ball(combined energy ball of Goku's FP Kamehameha and Beerus' energy ball) which was said by Old Kai to be leathful enough that just getting near it would be enough to wipe you out! And Base Goku litterally Punched it to smithereens!

Also if it helps anything SSGSS has already been confirmed to be above SSG.


And Herms confirmed it aswell.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 6665368576

[Helios518]

They can still transform into Super Saiyan and Beerus knows that. But even so they are no match for him. After acquiring Super Saiyan Blue they will probably be quite there.

If Goku could go regular SSJ and it has god ki, then what's the point of SSGSS? Base God Goku even punched a ki ball and blew it up, there's no way he would be able to do that even in his previous SSJ3 form.

[Hugo Boss]

Perhaps surpassing God's level. Goku punching through the ki ball can be explained with willpower. Shonen animes have a lot of that. If you want to make a big deal of it then you can probably assume Base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku and God.

[Darkron2151]

If Goku could go regular SSJ and it has god ki, then what's the point of SSGSS? Base God Goku even punched a ki ball and blew it up, there's no way he would be able to do that even in his previous SSJ3 form.

It would seem that SSGSS IS the new SSJ for them. IMO,through Whis' training, they've not only further accumulated Godly ki into their Base power, but also gained the ability to sense it themselves and also fight and execute ki manipulation without wasting any of it. With that said training, they've unintentionally evolved the SSJ form into a more power efficient (Whis' training was all about power efficiency, to which Goku even did with SSJ in the Cell Arc, and EVEN GREATER extent now) form and also broke the plateau of power that SSG was, as that was how strong SSJ Goku (Post god) was before the training.

So in short, IMO, if they did take Beerus' challenge, they would've gone SSGSS, then kinda be confused as to why SSJ is now Blue instead of Gold, shrug it off as whatever, and then fight.

[Helios518]

If Goku could go regular SSJ and it has god ki, then what's the point of SSGSS? Base God Goku even punched a ki ball and blew it up, there's no way he would be able to do that even in his previous SSJ3 form.

It would seem that SSGSS IS the new SSJ for them. IMO,through Whis' training, they've not only further accumulated Godly ki into their Base power, but also gained the ability to sense it themselves and also fight and execute ki manipulation without wasting any of it. With that said training, they've unintentionally evolved the SSJ form into a more power efficient (Whis' training was all about power efficiency, to which Goku even did with SSJ in the Cell Arc, and EVEN GREATER extent now) form and also broke the plateau of power that SSG was, as that was how strong SSJ Goku (Post god) was before the training.

So in short, IMO, if they did take Beerus' challenge, they would've gone SSGSS, then kinda be confused as to why SSJ is now Blue instead of Gold, shrug it off as whatever, and then fight.

My version of this is that after Goku went SSJG, SSJ (Post God) became obsolete to the point that it only gives a very small or no boost at all to base form (This is evident in the BoG movie when Goku didn't noticed his power changed until Beerus told him) and is not adapted to god ki. SSGSS is SSJ that is adapted to god ki and because of that it gives a greater boost. This to me makes much more sense than just saying will power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

About Super Saiyan God, Saiyan beyond God, and Super Saiyan Blue:

Spoiler:

• Goku fights the same against Beerus at 100% Super Saiyan God & base (Saiyan beyond God), but better than both after he gets angry & turns into a Super Saiyan. Beerus says that Goku's power didn't decrease significantly after he lost SSG.
• Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Blue is described as "a Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". This could mean that SSB is as strong as SSG, but not necesarily, it only says that SSB has the same kind of power as SSG, not equal battle powers. The above seem to indicate that SSB is actually not as strong as SSG, but SbG is.
• SSG Goku was a 6, while Beerus was a 10. SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together are only strong enough to rival Beerus.

Spoiler:

• Toriyama confirms that after absorbing the power of SSG, Goku no longer needs the SSG form.

Spoiler:

• They state that base Goku has the power of a god, and that SSB exceeds not only legend, but myth. Which seems to imply that he is at SSG level in base, and beyond SSG level in SSB.
• The FnF promotional manga seems to imply that SbG Goku is as strong as SSG Goku.

Spoiler:

• Dragon Ball Heroes call base Goku from FnF as "a Saiyan who has surpassed God".
• In Dragon Ball Z: Dokkan Battle, Whis says that Goku will become stronger than SSG by becoming SSB, and also describes SSB as "a Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" like in the movie, implying that this line does not imply that SSG & SSB are equal forms, only that they have the same kind of power.

Spoiler:

• After SSG Goku reverts to SS, he doesn't notice any power decrease, and Beerus says that his power didn't decrease at all, contradicting BoG, where his power decreased, yet not significantly. Or, the decrease was so insignificant that it wasn't even noticed by Beerus & Goku in Super.
• As SS Goku is struggling with the huge ki ball, he reverts back to base, but gets angry & punches the ball, making it explode. This shows that the difference between base & SS Goku, who is now a Saiyan beyond God, is at least not really big.
• It is stated directly that SSB is stronger than SSG.

Spoiler:

• It is stated directly that SSB is stronger than SSG.

What I get from Toriyama & the movies is this: SbG base Goku is slightly weaker than SSG Goku, and even though Goku can still turn into SSG without the ritual, he no longer needs to do it. SbG SS Goku is barely stronger, if at all, but by doing training, his SS form evolved into SSB, which is a form beyond SSG. The rest (video games, Super, etc) seem to confirm all this, either through further implications, or by through direct statements.

The only things that apparently contradict this are 2 instances in the Super anime. The first is when we see Goku training in his SS form after the fight with Beerus. The second is when Whis & the Oracle fish talk about Goku & Vegeta, and their discussion seems to imply that SS gives a big increase to them. But then again, Toei has been inconsistent before, and we have two instances vs... too many other instances pointing to the other direction.

There is also the fact that people don't like SSG, SbG, and SSB, and by extension Final Form Freeza (FnF), Golden Freeza, and Beerus, be so close is because they don't like the fact that their battle powers have to be too tight. There can still be a significant difference in battle powers without a x2 increase guys.

Correct me if I forgot something, or if I'm wrong somewhere.

[GodVegetto91]

About Super Saiyan God, Saiyan beyond God, and Super Saiyan Blue:

Spoiler:

• Goku fights the same against Beerus at 100% Super Saiyan God & base (Saiyan beyond God), but better than both after he gets angry & turns into a Super Saiyan. Beerus says that Goku's power didn't decrease significantly after he lost SSG.
• Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Blue is described as "a Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". This could mean that SSB is as strong as SSG, but not necesarily, it only says that SSB has the same kind of power as SSG, not equal battle powers. The above seem to indicate that SSB is actually not as strong as SSG, but SbG is.
• SSG Goku was a 6, while Beerus was a 10. SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together are only strong enough to rival Beerus.

Spoiler:

• Toriyama confirms that after absorbing the power of SSG, Goku no longer needs the SSG form.

Spoiler:

• They state that base Goku has the power of a god, and that SSB exceeds not only legend, but myth. Which seems to imply that he is at SSG level in base, and beyond SSG level in SSB.
• The FnF promotional manga seems to imply that SbG Goku is as strong as SSG Goku.

Spoiler:

• Dragon Ball Heroes call base Goku from FnF as "a Saiyan who has surpassed God".
• In Dragon Ball Z: Dokkan Battle, Whis says that Goku will become stronger than SSG by becoming SSB, and also describes SSB as "a Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" like in the movie, implying that this line does not imply that SSG & SSB are equal forms, only that they have the same kind of power.

Spoiler:

• After SSG Goku reverts to SS, he doesn't notice any power decrease, and Beerus says that his power didn't decrease at all, contradicting BoG, where his power decreased, yet not significantly. Or, the decrease was so insignificant that it wasn't even noticed by Beerus & Goku in Super.
• As SS Goku is struggling with the huge ki ball, he reverts back to base, but gets angry & punches the ball, making it explode. This shows that the difference between base & SS Goku, who is now a Saiyan beyond God, is at least not really big.
• It is stated directly that SSB is stronger than SSG.

Spoiler:

• It is stated directly that SSB is stronger than SSG.

What I get from Toriyama & the movies is this: SbG base Goku is slightly weaker than SSG Goku, and even though Goku can still turn into SSG without the ritual, he no longer needs to do it. SbG SS Goku is barely stronger, if at all, but by doing training, his SS form evolved into SSB, which is a form beyond SSG. The rest (video games, Super, etc) seem to confirm all this, either through further implications, or by through direct statements.

The only things that apparently contradict this are 2 instances in the Super anime. The first is when we see Goku training in his SS form after the fight with Beerus. The second is when Whis & the Oracle fish talk about Goku & Vegeta, and their discussion seems to imply that SS gives a big increase to them. But then again, Toei has been inconsistent before, and we have two instances vs... too many other instances pointing to the other direction.

There is also the fact that people don't like SSG, SbG, and SSB, and by extension Final Form Freeza (FnF), Golden Freeza, and Beerus, be so close is because they don't like the fact that their battle powers have to be too tight. There can still be a significant difference in battle powers without a x2 increase guys.

Correct me if I forgot something, or if I'm wrong somewhere.

I want to say this. I wholeheartedly 100% agree with everything you said!
It should (logically) be taken into account that Goku's base got a lot stronger during those 4 months of training with Whis.
So here are my numbers.

SSJ God Goku: 100%
SSJ Post: 100%
Base Post: 90-95% of ssjg

Post 4 months training with Whis closing the gap in base.
Base Goku: 100% of ssjg
Turning super saiyan on top of it and voila! Even stronger.

[Canis_latrans]

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Picclo as of now

[Helios518]

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Picclo as of now

In SSJ, He is as strong as Perfect Cell but I would love to have a reason for me to believe that he's stronger.

[LightBing]

That's about everything DBZGTKOSDH. There's also the Saiyans surviving Beerus sleeping attack, which is said to be unrestrained. If they were weaker than SSG I doubt they would survive.

The only real possible contradiction to Base = SSG is Whis speech, however maybe it isn't. Let me explain: when Whis mentions the "level of the Gods" he can only be referring to Beerus. The analogy would still stand if Base Saiyans are a 6 and Beerus a 10. Going SSJ would alleviate the burden of the training, so it does provide a small boost. SSB is born from fully grasping the God power. It all makes sense if we lean this way.

By the way here's the line:

Spoiler:

Episode 18
Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

So here's what I have:

Goku absorbed the SSG power almost entirely. I have him before training at 5,8. Vegeta gets those 6 months training head-start to catch up with Goku.

After training with Whis, they grow in strength to the point Beerus takes an interest in them. I have them at 6,3 during the Freeza fight. They achieve SSB who pushes them further into 7,6 enough to have the chance of beating Beerus in a tag team. Golden Freeza is around 8,2.

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Picclo as of now

In Base, I have him at his SSJ level during the Cell Games. While SSJ he rises to his Mystic power.

[Darkron2151]

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Piccolo as of now

He's always been better than Piccolo since the Cell Games, despite not training nearly as much. Even without all-access of his Ultimate power, he still can get credibly close as a SSJ, and then is still both shown and stated to be stronger than Piccolo in Base. As for Piccolo, I have him around (or a bit below) Cell Jr. level by the FNF Arc in DBS. Gohan is a fair gap above that in power, as with Tagoma, and then Ginyu (Tagoma) is even higher than that. I have Ginyu around SSJ Goku (Buu Arc) level, which IMO is somewhat below Full Power Perfect Cell level, but Gohan's SSJ would still trump even that IMO.

Numbers:

• Piccolo: 960,000,000
  Cell Jr.: 1,000,000,000
  
  Tagoma: 1,280,000,000
  Ginyu (Tagoma): 2,000,000,000
  
  Perfect Cell (Full Power): 2,400,000,000
  
  Gohan (Base): 1,280,000,000
  Super Saiyan: 32,000,000,000
  Super Saiyan Signal (Full Ultimate Power): 48,000,000,000
  
  Freeza (First Form): 53,000,000,000

[ZombieVito]

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Picclo as of now

I haven't decided yet on concrete numbers but I have this for now:

Freeza: 200,000,000,000
-- Final form: 600,000,000,000

Gohan: 6,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan [Ultimate power]: 150,000,000,000

Ginyu: 120,000,000,000

Gotenks [Super Saiyan]: 15,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000,000,000

Tagoma: 6,000,000,000
Piccolo: 3,000,000,000

For comparison I have Cell at 4,800,000,000 and 7,000,000,000 when he returns. Buuhan sits at 250,000,000,000 as of now.

I might nerf Gohan and Gotenks later on, well see.

[Basaku]

So ultimately SSG ritual can be completly skipped? It's nothing but a shortcut? No sign of Vegeta ever "going red" before he will pop his blue SS form in next 1/2 episodes. I wasn't a fan of SSG, I probably prefer SSB even though I find both to be cheap recolors. But it's gonna be just ironic how a "red form" is used just once and then skipped and forgotten forever for the second time (Kaioken first) in the franchise

[Vice]

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Picclo as of now

I haven't decided yet on concrete numbers but I have this for now:

Freeza: 200,000,000,000
-- Final form: 600,000,000,000

Gohan: 6,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan [Ultimate power]: 150,000,000,000

Ginyu: 120,000,000,000

Gotenks [Super Saiyan]: 15,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000,000,000

Tagoma: 6,000,000,000
Piccolo: 3,000,000,000

For comparison I have Cell at 4,800,000,000 and 7,000,000,000 when he returns. Buuhan sits at 250,000,000,000 as of now.

I might nerf Gohan and Gotenks later on, well see.

I have them at:

Freeza: 450,000,000,000
Final form: 18,000,000,000,000
Golden: 1,200,000,000,000,000

Gohan: 7,000,000,000
Super Saiyan: 350,000,000,000
Enraged: 1,500,000,000,000

Tagoma: 65,000,000,000

Piccolo: 2,100,000,000

Gotenks: 25,000,000,000
Super Saiyan: 1,250,000,000,000

[apex_pretador]

So ultimately SSG ritual can be completly skipped? It's nothing but a shortcut? No sign of Vegeta ever "going red" before he will pop his blue SS form in next 1/2 episodes. I wasn't a fan of SSG, I probably prefer SSB even though I find both to be cheap recolors. But it's gonna be just ironic how a "red form" is used just once and then skipped and forgotten forever for the second time (Kaioken first) in the franchise

I think that SSG ritual holds an important place in whis training. Whis observed the power of SSG and its working, then the training with him allowed them to unlock SSB (SS x SSG).

In your opinions how does current gohan compare to Cell as of now I mean he is vastly superior to Picclo as of now

I doubt he's "vastly" superior to piccolo in base, but I think that he's a little bit weaker than FP cell in base. As a SS, he can 1-shot him.

My idea for super power scaling: Use tagoma scale.
Tagoma post training = 10
Gohan base = 7.5
Weighted piccolo = 7.1
SS gotenks = 18
SS gohan = 30
First form freeza = 45
Final form freeza = 4500
Base gods = 4000-6000
SSG = 40,000
SSB = 60,000
Gold freeza = 65,000
Beerus = 75,000 or more

[Bullza]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that they're ssj god level??

I did initially but then Super changed things. It became clear that Goku is no longer a God since the end of BoG and Vegeta never became a God. Vegeta got as strong as he did in base just by training with Whis.

So however strong they are in base whereas before we assumed it was because they'd absorbed the power of SSJG is in fact just power they've obtained through intense training and they don't have to be as strong as SSJG at all.

That then makes sense to me with the power jumps and reactions when they do transform because his power could jump 2 or 3 times. It doesn't seem right for Goku to turn into a SSJB and Frieza to act all nervous when his power would have only increased by about 20-25%.

I'm not gonna say SSJB isn't stronger than SSJG because I think it would have intended to be but in the Funi dub Goku says he had a taste of something called SSJG and now he could tap into that power on his own. That implies they're around the same as do the comments about SSJB being a type of Super Saiyan with the power of SSJG.

If anything SSJB is on the same level or stronger than SSJG and the base form is a few fold weaker.

I do think their base forms are very powerful though. Vegeta was on par with Goku's base strenght after 6 months of training and by that point they'd reached the level to be able to sense Gods.

[Helios518]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that they're ssj god level??

I did initially but then Super changed things. It became clear that Goku is no longer a God since the end of BoG and Vegeta never became a God. Vegeta got as strong as he did in base just by training with Whis.

So however strong they are in base whereas before we assumed it was because they'd absorbed the power of SSJG is in fact just power they've obtained through intense training and they don't have to be as strong as SSJG at all.

That then makes sense to me with the power jumps and reactions when they do transform because his power could jump 2 or 3 times. It doesn't seem right for Goku to turn into a SSJB and Freeza to act all nervous when his power would have only increased by about 20-25%.

I'm not gonna say SSJB isn't stronger than SSJG because I think it would have intended to be but in the Funi dub Goku says he had a taste of something called SSJG and now he could tap into that power on his own. That implies they're around the same as do the comments about SSJB being a type of Super Saiyan with the power of SSJG.

If anything SSJB is on the same level or stronger than SSJG and the base form is a few fold weaker.

I do think their base forms are very powerful though. Vegeta was on par with Goku's base strenght after 6 months of training and by that point they'd reached the level to be able to sense Gods.

IIRC There was a time after BoG where Goku tries to IT to Whis but couldn't due him being suppressed most of the time, Goku wouldn't even try ITing if he knew he ran out of god ki.

Why are you using the dub when the English subtitles for the same movie say otherwise? Base Goku was beating 4th form Frieza with minor difficulty if Goku got any stronger, he'll be curb stomping Frieza. So of course Frieza would be nervous especially because he can't sense God Ki.

[Bullza]

The Japanese version said a similiar thing, that the form was Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God aka a version of Super Saiyan that has a power level similiar to that of a Super Saiyan God.

Again implying they're roughly the same strenght.

Frieza already knew that Goku was holding power back so it doesn't make sense for him to react the way he did if Goku only went from a 6 to a 7/7.5ish.

It does make sense though if Goku went from a 2-3 up to a 6-7.