Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[JulieYBM]

The "ah, fuck it" attitude has been with Toriyama forever. Just look at what he did with Gohan after the Namek arc. Or always using the Dragon Balls to revive characters. Or making Goten screw around when fighting Majin Buu after seeing his mom killed. Or mass-killing characters and bringing them back to life later with no real drama.

The 2013 film was by no means a cohesive story, but when has Dragon Ball ever been cohesive at bringing story threads together?

[Big Momma]

I'm gonna jump on this train and say I loved that post, Kaiser. Very well said Although I don't think I'm free from criticism as I've probably dropped Toriyama's name way too much lately as a defense

I (especially) don't care about the inconsistencies with GT.

That's another thing I don't get. I've seen a couple people in this thread complain about inconsistencies with GT....but, why? GT isn't Toriyama's story. If there was ever anything that wasn't "canon" in terms of Dragon Ball, GT would be it.

[Lord Beerus]

It's really frustrating to see people in this thread think and act like they know what's better for DragonBall than the industry veteran mangaka who has been writing more stories professionally than most people have ever dreamed of as a hobby.

Whilst your criticisms and personal opinions of his material are of note, they are pretentious at best and utterly disrespectful at worst. They dismiss the attachment and love Akira Toriyama has for his work, it dismisses his own artistic integrity and ability, and it erroneously suggests you know what's better for the series more than he does. A series that belongs to him, a series that he made. Almost everything of what you love and hate about the series came from his mind, in one way or another. So for any of you to act like it's no longer in the best interest of the series for Akira Toriyama to have majority creative control, I think you've completely lost sight of what made it beautiful in the first place.

My favorite parts of DragonBall were never about the fights. Sure, the huge moments of drama were always thrilling, the fights could sometimes be incredibly creative and engaging, and goodness knows he could ramp up the danger. It was the characters, and the moments between them. It was the story, the adventures, the creativity of a wonderfully talented artist with a penchant for poop jokes.

I don't give a damn about SUPER SAIYANS anymore. I don't care about Gohan going Super Saiyan, I don't care about the look of Golden Freeza, I (especially) don't care about the inconsistencies with GT. I'm betting the moment with Kuririn and 18 is going to in fact be an adorable scene, Gohan not being a fighter any more makes perfect sense from a character perspective, Freeza's Hell is utterly perfect with the exception of Momoiro Clover Z's involvement, and no more Super Saiyans is exactly what the series needs at this point, I feel. It took far too much attention away from other characters who couldn't reach the form and has become a stale concept.

Toriyama has never been perfect. We could sit here all day pointing out flaws with the original series. But keep that in mind whilst plenty of you try and act like these movies are breaking from and disrespecting the spirit of the original series, because Battle of Gods felt more like actual DragonBall than any single of the 13 DragonBall Z movies before it, introduced wonderful new characters, gave some established characters wonderful moments, and even with it's flaws still managed to be a fun, engaging experience for most.

This movie could totally blow, of course. But considering the fun I had with Battle of Gods, I'm certainly willing to give this film a chance.

KaiserNeko, once again being awesome and accurate.

Creatively, the recent material is lazy and half-assed.

Not a fan of Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, I see?

[dbzfan7]

I just hope to get across I don't think the movie will be bad at all. I think it will be an enjoyable flick. None of my gripes will overall kill my enjoyment. Even when GT bugged the crap out of me, I still had some enjoyment. I'll get a lot more out of FnF no doubt in comparison, but it doesn't change the fact some things bother me. Hells angels bother me? Just ignore past manga stuff and enjoy the simple gag at hand. Freeza coming back for the 5th damn time? Just enjoy the awesomeness of Nakao. Golden Freeza looks really dumb to me? Well the fights will still be awesome or enjoyable so whatever. Gohan and the others retelling the movie 3 side character shtick? Well that sucks, but still I'm sure the interactions and other battles will make up for that.

I have my issues, but I can put them aside to enjoy the movie. The saying is called suspension of disbelief for a reason.

[Saiga]

The other thing (and maybe this is a banal point, but it still needs saying) is that DB is a franchise that exists to be financially successful. Jump only let Toriyama wrap up Dr. Slump on condition that he start up another series, so that they could hopefully have another Toriyama hit on their hands. That's why DB's around to begin with, and that's why they started making these new movies. By all accounts BoG did pretty well, and early signs are that this next movie may be even more successful. With things going the way they are, why on Earth should the folks at Toei and Shueisha take creative control away from Toriyama? It's worked out pretty well for them so far.

Sure it's probably the most financially sound decision, but fans are not often in favor of that since the best way to make money often comes at the expense of the consumer. It's the same thing as on-disc DLC and pre-order bonuses used to generate more money in games, it's shown to work but is still criticized.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a fan to want what they feel is best for the story and not what is most profitable.

It's really frustrating to see people in this thread think and act like they know what's better for DragonBall than the industry veteran mangaka who has been writing more stories professionally than most people have ever dreamed of as a hobby.

Whilst your criticisms and personal opinions of his material are of note, they are pretentious at best and utterly disrespectful at worst. They dismiss the attachment and love Akira Toriyama has for his work, it dismisses his own artistic integrity and ability, and it erroneously as if you know what's better for the series than he does. A series that belongs to him, a series that he made. Everything you love and hate about the series came from his mind, in one way or another. So for any of you to act like it's no longer in the best interest of the series for Akira Toriyama to have majority creative control, I think you've completely lost sight of what made it beautiful in the first place.

It doesn't matter who Toriyama is or what he has done. There's nothing that elevates him above the fans when it comes to talking about Dragon Ball.

There's absolutely nothing pretentious about thinking things can be done differently, can be done better. Even if something is done by the original author. The fact that I'm a big fan of Toriyama's manga doesn't mean I can't criticize or even outright hate the new material, I don't need to think that Toriyama's involvement is the best thing.

I think it's pretty unfair to say that someone has lost sight of what makes Dragon Ball good because they don't like what the author is currently doing. Everyone will have different preferences and the new material is plainly different to what came before. It shouldn't be too surprising at all that some people can perfectly appreciate older material without liking the newer stuff. Especially if newer material is going back and altering the things fans originally liked, either deliberately or accidentally, and replacing it with something they don't like as much.

Thinking Toriyama's lost his touch isn't disrespectful, not unless criticizing any one person's ability at any given thing is disrespectful.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Marked for deletion.

[sintzu]

Sure it's probably the most financially sound decision, but fans are not often in favor of that since the best way to make money often comes at the expense of the consumer.

9 times out of 10 fans don't know what they're talking about.

If the fans had their way then we wouldn't have gotten Heath Ledger's Joker.
If the fans had their way then we wouldn't have gotten Michael Keaton's Batman.

2 classic movies that wouldn't have happened if the fans got their way.

This new Dragon Ball movie could end up being one of if not the best movie in the series and the beginning of a new era for the series yet if some fans had their way then it wouldn't even exist.

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Well said KaiserNeko

[KaiserNeko]

It doesn't matter who Toriyama is or what he has done. There's nothing that elevates him above the fans when it comes to talking about Dragon Ball.

There's absolutely nothing pretentious about thinking things can be done differently, can be done better. Even if something is done by the original author. The fact that I'm a big fan of Toriyama's manga doesn't mean I can't criticize or even outright hate the new material, I don't need to think that Toriyama's involvement is the best thing.

I think it's pretty unfair to say that someone has lost sight of what makes Dragon Ball good because they don't like what the author is currently doing. Everyone will have different preferences and the new material is plainly different to what came before. It shouldn't be too surprising at all that some people can perfectly appreciate older material without liking the newer stuff. Especially if newer material is going back and altering the things fans originally liked, either deliberately or accidentally, and replacing it with something they don't like as much.

Thinking Toriyama's lost his touch isn't disrespectful, not unless criticizing any one person's ability at any given thing is disrespectful.

I personally believe that who Toriyama is and what he's done matters significantly, but I'll digress on that one.

I'm not saying people aren't allowed criticism. It's when people make statements such as, "He's doing more harm that good." and "He should be kept away from the product at this point, it's dangerous." that come off as offensively misguided to me. A lot of people here keep talking about what he "should do" or "should have done", when really: It's up to him. It's his story, they're his ideas, and ultimately? I love his material for everything that it is, flaws included. I'd rather see something raw, from his heart, than something that's been filtered and distorted. His artistic vision means more to me than my own perceptions, expectations, etc.

Sure, I think he's made mistakes, myself. Outright continuity errors, plot holes, etc. And I don't like a lot of the retconning that much. DB Minus is an example of that. But if that's the angle he wants to take, I'll respect it and hope that the material he puts out will either not use it, or make something good out of it.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Marked for deletion.

[jcogginsa]

I do admit that without heavy retooling I personally would prefer that the movie not exist, or at least that Toriyama weren't in charge of it. Drop the Freeza angle, Jaco's involvement and a few other colossal nitpicks, and the film could be a genuinely intriguing entry. As it stands, it's shaping up to be an epic disaster. Financially, I'm fairly certain that it will do well, but for the moment this whole thing just feels wrong on so many levels.

...And replace it with what? No Frieza and there'd be no plot.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Marked for deletion.

[jcogginsa]

There's barely a plot now. That's basically my point. Battle of Gods goes out of its way to create a new kind of enemy and throw in a multiverse, and what does the next movie do? Let's bring back Freeza with the Dragonballs. Can we get any more fanfic than this?

You can't say a movie can be 'fixed' by chucking out everything about the plot. At that point it's a new movie

[Saiga]

I personally believe that who Toriyama is and what he's done matters significantly, but I'll digress on that one.

I'm not saying people aren't allowed criticism. It's when people make statements such as, "He's doing more harm that good." and "He should be kept away from the product at this point, it's dangerous." that come off as offensively misguided to me. A lot of people here keep talking about what he "should do" or "should have done", when really: It's up to him. It's his story, they're his ideas, and ultimately? I love his material for everything that it is, flaws included. I'd rather see something raw, from his heart, than something that's been filtered and distorted. His artistic vision means more to me than my own perceptions, expectations, etc.

Sure, I think he's made mistakes, myself. Outright continuity errors, plot holes, etc. And I don't like a lot of the retconning that much. DB Minus is an example of that. But if that's the angle he wants to take, I'll respect it and hope that the material he puts out will either not use it, or make something good out of it.

While I understand what you're saying I don't see those comments as being much different from any other criticism. Artistic vision is great and all but I don't think other people having input is going to distort his vision. After all, the manga was a product where Toriyama wasn't allowed to do whatever he wanted, and we have no idea how it would have turned out without it. Editors are more than just a restraint on someone's artistic freedom.

So if Toriyama has more creative control here than he did with the manga, I don't think it's unfair at all for people to think he needs an editor or something similar in order to achieve a similar quality to his original works. We can't know much about the behind the scenes, but everything I've seen does indicate Toriyama's got free reign.

If this is the kind of stuff Toriyama writes wholly on his own, I support him having an editor or team to help him. Especially when there is so much stuff that can be fixed up without stepping on his toes at all. If he had someone to point out small inconsistencies like Mai's age, would that really distort his vision of the series?

You can't say a movie can be 'fixed' by chucking out everything about the plot. At that point it's a new movie

Some things might only be repairable by replacing them completely. Like a punctured car tire.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Marked for deletion.

[jcogginsa]

Then maybe we need a new movie. Let's encounter an enemy who has something new to add to the cornucopia of Dragonball villainy instead of bringing back a guy who ran his course years ago, giving him an absurd, non-sensical powerup that somehow closes an impossible gap and letting him run riot for the sake of fanservice. I like Freeza as much as the next person, but his time should be over and done. Bringing him back this way shows an alarming lack of a better idea.

If you think we need a new movie, more power to you. Say that, don't say your fixing FoF.

Some things might only be repairable by replacing them completely. Like a punctured car tire.

That may fix the car but it doesn't fix the tire

[Saiga]

That may fix the car but it doesn't fix the tire

That's because the tire couldn't be fixed. Leaving the tire on would have only made things worse.

Not all tire punctures are irreparable but I'm just using an example of one that is.

[jcogginsa]

That may fix the car but it doesn't fix the tire

That's because the tire couldn't be fixed. Leaving the tire on would have only made things worse.

Not all tire punctures are irreparable but I'm just using an example of one that is.

And if you replace the tire, don't say you're fixing the tire.

To be clear, if you don't like this movie and don't think it should be made, you're free to have that opinion. But don't call getting rid of the movie or replacing it with an entirely different movie fixing it

[SSJGFrieza]

Everyone takes Dragon Ball too seriously when at it's core it is a gag series. The problem is when it came to Z, it began to take itself a little seriously and everyone started treating it like a serious series but you can probably blame the anime for that.

Dragon Ball is not meant to have good writing or be taken serious, it is just meant to entertain you with some cheap laughs.

Evaluating Dragonball on its writing is like evaluating porn on its plot.

[DBZAOTA482]

Dragon Ball was never a gag series. It was an adventure series with gag elements.

[Big Momma]

Then maybe we need a new movie. Let's encounter an enemy who has something new to add to the cornucopia of Dragonball villainy

That's the thing; we have been getting new things. With Beerus/Whis, SSJG, DB Minus, Jaco....Toriyama has been doing new things. And yet you still don't like any of it. And STILL haven't said whether or not you've read Jaco. I've asked a few times already in multiple threads, and have others ask but still haven't seen an answer yet. It's driving me crazy!

To be clear, if you don't like this movie and don't think it should be made, you're free to have that opinion. But don't call getting rid of the movie or replacing it with an entirely different movie fixing it

I don't think there's really any point in picking apart the way they're wording things in regards to this. You get the point, I'm sure.