Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

I wonder why Goku didn't mention Gohan beating Golden Frieza along with Vegeta as well.

Does that mean he's weaker? If he's a match for current SSJB Goku then he should be drastically stronger.

Maybe that's over thinking it all.

Gohan isn't in Golden Frieza's league.

I share the sentiment myself. It's not conclusive, but I deem it pretty clear the writers still go by the notion that Super Saiyan Blue is a realm of power other fighters did not yet reach. Goku, Vegeta and Golden Freeza are still supposed to be in a class of their own compared to the rest of the team (including #17 and Gohan).

So all the writers probably have slightly to moderately different power scales. We can piece together Toshio's a little bit better we those tweets, but I doubt it means much for anyone else.

I think it means "something" in that it should act as a reminder for people not to take everything too seriously. I've literally many online users here and in other places argue that you had to be in denial or in bad faith to even contemplate the very idea that Yurin's magic had buffed up Roshi, when it was still something that could have been possible in the context of the episode. While who's stronger between Tien and Roshi is ultimately an unresolved dilemma, it still feels a tad extreme that a writer had to step up to (indirectly) remind us it's fine to have differing opinions on such a matter. At least given how the show approached it thus far, that is.

[SansrivaaL]

I feel like this will be the closest we may get with the implication of Goku surpassing Beerus, via having Goku go toe to toe with that mortal who was said to be stronger than his GoD who's won against Beerus in an arm wrestling match, this is all assuming Goku does go toe to toe with that mortal tho.

[SaiyanGod117]

@SaiyanGod117: i think he meant in the tournament. I mean, Gohan will become stronger by partecipating in the fights, thus surpassing A17.

Still dumb. Gaining experience-fine. Gaining power-bad writing, his power level should be already be set as of now.

[Legion]

I think that the mortal is not Jiren.

When Whis talked about that mortal stronger than an Hakaishin, Beerus doesn't seemed worried at all. Beerus was shocked after knowing that Goku was fighting universe 11's second best and now he doesn't care if someone stronger than him fight in the tournament?

And unless Beerus losing to every Hakaishin in an arm wrestling, then Whis/Beerus knows what universe they're talking about. Imo, is someone in the top 4 universe.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think that the mortal is not Jiren.

When Whis talked about that mortal stronger than an Hakaishin, Beerus doesn't seemed worried at all. Beerus was shocked after knowing that Goku was fighting universe 11's second best and now he doesn't care if someone stronger than him fight in the tournament?

And unless Beerus losing to every Hakaishin in an arm wrestling, then Whis/Beerus knows what universe they're talking about. Imo, is someone in the top 4 universe.

Maybe this mortal is a hint towards what's next to come for the series.

I also wonder how much stronger this mortal is than his/her God of Destruction.

[Shinda Forever]

Pride Troopers are like the Ginyu force, a bunch of clowns, i think they will be beaten more easily than most people think and i highly doubt any of them will remain for the next arc.

[Bullza]

Got a few questions for you lot to see if I can narrow down some of the ranking for the different characters.

1. Would we be in agreement that Basil, Lavender and Bergamo, normally, would be slightly below Base Saiyan level?

2. Taking into account Roshi was only as strong as he was shown to be because of Witchcraft then how do you think he rates? Apparently he's weaker than Tien.

3. Is Krillin above Goten and Kid Trunks?

4. Is Piccolo above or below Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

5. Would Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Goku be evenly matched? We previously saw them as equals when they both used Super Saiyan and yet we Super Saiyan 2 Goku go toe to toe with Ultimate Gohan for a while.

6. Is Buu above or below Super Saiyan 2 level?

7. Is current Super Saiyan Blue Goku really above his Kaioken x10 self from the Universe 6 Tournament?

8. Was Trunks after absorbing the spirit bomb more or less powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Got a few questions for you lot to see if I can narrow down some of the ranking for the different characters.

1. Would we be in agreement that Basil, Lavender and Bergamo, normally, would be slightly below Base Saiyan level?

2. Taking into account Roshi was only as strong as he was shown to be because of Witchcraft then how do you think he rates? Apparently he's weaker than Tien.

3. Is Krillin above Goten and Kid Trunks?

4. Is Piccolo above or below Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

5. Would Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Goku be evenly matched? We previously saw them as equals when they both used Super Saiyan and yet we Super Saiyan 2 Goku go toe to toe with Ultimate Gohan for a while.

6. Is Buu above or below Super Saiyan 2 level?

7. Is current Super Saiyan Blue Goku really above his Kaioken x10 self from the Universe 6 Tournament?

8. Was Trunks after absorbing the spirit bomb more or less powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

Alright, I'll bite.

As we see, Bergamo is still considered the strongest out of the Trio De Dangers despite Basil having powered up to rival Buu's power, and is equivalent to Goku. Therefore, I place him at the current base Saiyans' level, equal to Piccolo and Slim Buu and above SS3 Gotenks, but below Ultimate Gohan. For Basil and Lavender, I'd place them at Gohan's original base power level before his recent training with Piccolo, somewhere around the level of Buu Saga SS Goku if his base form being around or above Piccolo's power in RoF is true.

Speaking of Piccolo, Gohan is going toe-to-toe with him in SS2, but Piccolo still managed to knock him out by choking him. I'd say that to be safe, we should place them as equal at that point, but closing in on Ultimate Gohan's original power given how Piccolo took Ultimate Gohan out with his severed arm.

SS2 Gohan before recovering and evolving Ultimate is most definitely not a match for SS2 Goku. When they sparred in SS episodes ago, it was merely to scratch Goku's fighting itch. As we saw a few episodes before this instance, Goku wanted to use SS against KRILLIN of all people, because he likes to use it when he fights. Gohan told him to not hold back, so Goku decided to turn SS and amp up their spar.

Buu is most likely around the level of the current base Saiyans and Piccolo, given how he slimmed down and grew stronger before going to sleep. He was probably as strong as SS2 Gohan pre-Ultimate-recovery a.k.a. as strong as Piccolo and the base Saiyans a.k.a. stronger than SS3 Gotenks but weaker than the original Ultimate Gohan.

Current SSB Goku is NOT above his Kaio-ken-x10 self. He told Hit that the Time-Skip wouldn't work anymore, to which Hit agreed, but it's not made abundantly clear why. We see that Goku only made marginal gains in the arc prior, nothing that screams ten times stronger. I'd chalk that instance up to Goku simply knowing how to counter any level of Time-Skip no matter what now, which is somewhat proven when Goku simply figures out how to break Hit out of his pocket dimension.

Finally, with Future Trunks, he never absorbed the Genkidama energy, merely channeled it into a blade. It wasn't his own power that defeated Merged Zamasu, but that of his friends and loved ones, those he vowed to protect. We see the effectiveness of piercing and cutting techniques in the series, able to hit above their weight class. Apply that to a Genkidama against an evil that may even surpass Pure Buu in terms of wickedness? The fact that Merged Zamasu survived at all is amazing.

[Marlowe89]

Current SSB Goku is NOT above his Kaio-ken-x10 self. He told Hit that the Time-Skip wouldn't work anymore, to which Hit agreed, but it's not made abundantly clear why. We see that Goku only made marginal gains in the arc prior, nothing that screams ten times stronger. I'd chalk that instance up to Goku simply knowing how to counter any level of Time-Skip no matter what now, which is somewhat proven when Goku simply figures out how to break Hit out of his pocket dimension.

Basically this. Goku saying that the standard Time-Skip ability won't work on him could have simply meant that he can counter it now, possibly with Kaioken again; the idea that he became ten times stronger was never implied or stated in the series and was mostly just inferred by people jumping to conclusions about Hit's strength and the intended meaning of Goku's dialogue. A bold claim like that would require direct confirmation, and it just isn't there.

[Bullza]

I'd still wager that SSJB Goku got multiple times stronger than he was back in the U6 saga even if it weren't greater than 10 times.

We'd have to assume that Merged Zamasu as he was upon first appearance was stronger than SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 going by the comments of Vegeta and the Supreme Kai.

Goku wasn't that far off from Merged Zamasu, not far enough away that upon using Kaioken he flattened him immediately​ so he'd have to be comfortably over half as strong as Merged Zamasu. So he'd have to be above a U6 saga SSJB Goku Kaioken x5 I'd say.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Got a few questions for you lot to see if I can narrow down some of the ranking for the different characters.

1. Would we be in agreement that Basil, Lavender and Bergamo, normally, would be slightly below Base Saiyan level?

2. Taking into account Roshi was only as strong as he was shown to be because of Witchcraft then how do you think he rates? Apparently he's weaker than Tien.

3. Is Krillin above Goten and Kid Trunks?

4. Is Piccolo above or below Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

5. Would Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Goku be evenly matched? We previously saw them as equals when they both used Super Saiyan and yet we Super Saiyan 2 Goku go toe to toe with Ultimate Gohan for a while.

6. Is Buu above or below Super Saiyan 2 level?

7. Is current Super Saiyan Blue Goku really above his Kaioken x10 self from the Universe 6 Tournament?

8. Was Trunks after absorbing the spirit bomb more or less powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

1- I'd say Basil is above Majin Vegeta.
He was able to face (even if contained) Mr.Boo, who managed to hold a fight against Kid Boo, even though he was weaker (Vegeta SSJ2 could not even hit him in the manga).
I think Lavender is a bit inferior to Gohan SSJ (probably was weak than in the Android Saga)

Bergamo was at the level (or slightly above) of Goku in base form. He can increase his powers exponentially by taking blows (even if he has more blind spots when he gets bigger), being stopped only by an attack with great power

2-I believe Roshi is above Ginyu. I may be exaggerating, I do not have a dimension of your power without being controlled

3- Do not. Some guides said that Goten and Trunks were stronger than Freeza.
Their normal form would already have to be at least above the third form of the Freeza and I believe that Krillin is not at that level, even because he stopped training (even developing a new technique)

4-Piccolo is much stronger than Gohan SSJ2.
He managed to strangle him easily (without letting go of him) and defeated him easily. And apparently Gohan was stronger (he had trained with Piccolo before the Champa tournament and Piccolo himself said he wanted to see his current power).I think Piccolo may be on the level of Super Perfect Cell

5-Apparently, Goku and Gohan were matched in base form.
But then we saw that Goku only with SSJ2 managed to hold a fight against Ultimate Gohan (much stronger than Gohan SSJ2)
So I believe that Ultimate Gohan = ou > Goku SSJ2 > Goku SSJ> Gohan SSJ> Goku base> Gohan base

6-I already thought that Mr.Boo was stronger than Goku SSJ2 and Majin Vegeta / Vegeta SSJ2 revived, for being able to face Kid Boo better than Vegeta himself (who did not hit any hits). But after training and getting thin, I believe He's much stronger than Vegeta SSJ2, but he may not get to Goku SSJ3 level (we do not know how much Goku held after fighting him)

7-I believe so.
Goku said that Hit's Tokitobashi would not work anymore.
Goku thought of another way to counteract this technique? I find it difficult because they never faced each other again. So I think it's because he got much stronger.

8- I do not think he's stronger than Vegito. He just used the power of all the living people on Earth.
Not to mention that Zamasu was already well weakened after fighting against Vegito

Current SSB Goku is NOT above his Kaio-ken-x10 self. He told Hit that the Time-Skip wouldn't work anymore, to which Hit agreed, but it's not made abundantly clear why. We see that Goku only made marginal gains in the arc prior, nothing that screams ten times stronger. I'd chalk that instance up to Goku simply knowing how to counter any level of Time-Skip no matter what now, which is somewhat proven when Goku simply figures out how to break Hit out of his pocket dimension.

Basically this. Goku saying that the standard Time-Skip ability won't work on him could have simply meant that he can counter it now, possibly with Kaioken again; the idea that he became ten times stronger was never implied or stated in the series and was mostly just inferred by people jumping to conclusions about Hit's strength and the intended meaning of Goku's dialogue. A bold claim like that would require direct confirmation, and it just isn't there.

According to Black himself, Goku would return even stronger.
He did not know RoSaT, so Goku's only way to get stronger was to suffer a Zenkai, since he did not have time to train.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta could not suffer Zenkai because he was not seriously injured as Goku.
In addition to getting stronger during the fights against Black, and there was a passage of time after the end of the MT Saga. Goku was preparing to fight Hit (he who hired the killer) so he must have trained a lot

[Marlowe89]

None of that really has anything to do with my point. Nobody's denying that Goku became stronger.

It's just that the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of those who would make a specific claim like "ten times", and it hasn't been validated in any capacity beyond vague assumptions and possible misinterpretations.

[Cursemark505]

It makes perfect sense for me, I still put Ultimate Gohan at SSJ2 to SSJ3 Goku at best, he is still far below SSJB Goku let alone SSJG.

Whats with all the Gohan underestimation? The narrator specifically said that Gohans power rivaled Goku's and we clearly saw him block attacks and even counter attack on a serious ssjb Goku so what's the deal?

[LowRyder2005]

The thing about Gohan has been tentatively addressed by some on the other side of the fence some pages ago. "Rival" in that context is, basically, already a bold claim: we know that Gohan's power only rivals "a Goku who is not fighting at full power"; Gohan couldn't withstand one blow from SSB + Kaioken Goku, after all. Therefore, if you intend "rival" as "about equal to Goku at his strongest", Gohan isn't that comparable to Goku already. Gohan stubbornly asking Goku to unleash his might would appear in turn to be more of a matter of Vegeta-esque pride than anything else.

To make it short - although it's not really 100% convincing either - it does seem at the very least possible the narration could intend "rivaling" as "rivaling some lesser form of Goku".

There are also other factors in the preceeding episode that may suggest Gohan is only in the realm of Goku's non-godly forms and that need further interposition on the viewer's part to be rationalized.
Like, why does Goku fight Gohan as SS2 and doesn't even seem remotely inclined to go SSB if he has seen Gohan's full power before the fight? Why can't Ultimate Gohan dispose of Super Saiyan 2 Goku with one punch - or at least decisively corner him, if his intent was to make him go Blue - if he his several orders of magnitude above him in power? Again, those could be byproducts of Super's signature wonky writing, but Gohan suddenly been able to land a punch or two on SSB Goku could also be.

I feel like Gohan's power will probably be left up in the air - like usual - unless someone conveniently clarified that Gohan does indeed possess power "rivaling a god's", still, which would provide a handy confirmation.

[Bullza]

The Trio De Dangers are being overrated I think.

The imagination battle showed that Krillin wasn't that pathetically weak when compared to Basil.

Basil is probably comparable on strength to Lavender who matched Gohan at first but then once Gohan started to concentrate he was able to get the upper hand.

Then there's Bergamo who was very close to Base Goku's power.

I'd have just said they were Buu saga Base Saiyan level or so. Like Cabba and probably Caulifla and Kale.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Trio De Dangers are being overrated I think.

The imagination battle showed that Krillin wasn't that pathetically weak when compared to Basil.

Basil is probably comparable on strength to Lavender who matched Gohan at first but then once Gohan started to concentrate he was able to get the upper hand.

Then there's Bergamo who was very close to Base Goku's power.

I'd have just said they were Buu saga Base Saiyan level or so. Like Cabba and probably Caulifla and Kale.

The problem with that is that we see the base Saiyans participating in the Tournament of Power for Universe 7 are all very strong. Cabba and his lot are shown to rival the base Saiyans during the Universe 6/7 Tournament, which were shown to be slightly stronger than they were during RoF, above SS3 Gotenks as the Copy Water Arc showed us.

Even assuming Gohan made no gains whatsoever from RoF, which he quite clearly did, that'd still put him at Piccolo's original level at a minimum without SS. The perception that these base Saiyans, and in turn characters who rival them, are as weak as back in the Buu Saga is patently false.

As well, we see that Krillin also did well in combat against base Goku, whom we KNOW is extremely strong in base form. He used his skill and wits to accomplish his success, which is similar to the image battle he had with Basil in Gohan's and Goku's minds.

Besides Bergamo and powered-up Basil, the Trio De Dangers don't have to be at the level of Majin Buu, but they're definitely not weaker than Freeza's original power.

[buutenks]

I agree with everything which was said.

And I have doubts Goku is 10x stronger than u6 arc. Hit was able to withstand kkx10 ssj blue Goku, but i doubt Hit got many times stronger. Hit didn't got koed because this is fiction and its more flexible. So. Basically Hit is still ssj blue u6 arc level, but his time skip technique improved vastly. And Goku and Vegeta's ssj blue forms got a bit stronger than the u6 arc. Meaning they proly got to be a bit stronger than full power Golden Freeza. Plus I believe after Goku used kkx10 on Hit and punched him in the giant picture of Champs, Goku dropped to regular KK, since his body couldn't maintain kkx10. This is what I think.

[LowRyder2005]

[...] above SS3 Gotenks as the Copy Water Arc showed us. [...]

The Copy Water Arc was still intended to follow a particular plot direction: Goku and Vegeta being not that far off from the Super Saiyan God's level at all times when in base. I don't think it's even questionable at this point that the intention has basically been forgotten, soft-retconned or both these things, if you prefer. Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goku were "comparable" in power when Gohan was weaker than his former self, while Goku is noted to be comparable to a "god" when he goes Super Saiyan Blue and in doing that he surprises the spectators at the exhibition matches. Meaning that he wasn't anywhere near that level before transforming into that form.

There's also Piccolo. While he's stronger than what Gohan remembered, he shouldn't have had the means to become stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, yet alone "Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks multipied 150 times" (alas, the kind of multiplier probably needed to match or surpass a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan remotely comparable to the same Super Saiyan 2 Goku who could beat Gotenks in base form).

I suspect the Toyotaro/Toriyama dynamic indirectly played a part in this; Toei in turn followed the BOG movie implication for a little while, but when the general plotline for the Goku Black arc was established they were probably forced to follow suit.

@Bullza: in general, base Cabba, Lavenda, Basil and the non-amped Bergamo are only called out for being weak or so-so. Lavender especially had trouble with base Gohan when it looked like he was going in for the kill since the beginning. So, yeah, they are most likely supposed to be "weak" even by late Z standards.

[Bullza]

The problem with that is that we see the base Saiyans participating in the Tournament of Power for Universe 7 are all very strong. Cabba and his lot are shown to rival the base Saiyans during the Universe 6/7 Tournament, which were shown to be slightly stronger than they were during RoF, above SS3 Gotenks as the Copy Water Arc showed us.

The Base Saiyans aren't above SSJ3 Gotenks normally though.

During the Universe 6 saga they were all weaker than Piccolo. Cabba in particular was derided for being so weak he shouldn't have been there.

Obviously Krillin wouldn't have put up any kind of fight against Basil or Base Goku if they were that strong. They wouldn't even need to bother to dodge or block any of his attacks.

Krillin shouldn't​be close to Namek Frieza's power so I wouldn't say any of the Trio Dear Dangers were.

[buutenks]

The Base Saiyans aren't above SSJ3 Gotenks normally though.

During the Universe 6 saga they were all weaker than Piccolo. Cabba in particular was derided for being so weak he shouldn't have been there.

Obviously Krillin wouldn't have put up any kind of fight against Basil or Base Goku if they were that strong. They wouldn't even need to bother to dodge or block any of his attacks.

Krillin shouldn't​be close to Namek Frieza's power so I wouldn't say any of the Trio Dear Dangers were.

Yea but base Goku also was able to over power Piccolo charged attack in ep 90. And on top of that Goku fought a fit Mr Buu in base. If base Goku would be as strong as his Buu saga self, then he wouldn't have been able to do all those things. Plus the copy Vegeta thing.

So, most likely the inconsistent one is Krillin.

Also, we don't know if base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in u6 arc. Piccolo's PL in the u6 arc is a mystery.