Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Basako]

That can't work. Vegeta was using SSJB to kick SSJR Goku Black's ass after his training in the ROSAT.

No, that was the SSG and SSB switching strategy. He was obviously not stronger than Black SSR in SSG and I don't think he was in SSB either. But one punch at a time, he exhausted him, taking the victory.

Upa and Puar were not stronger than Drakulaman, neither than Krilin, who was defeated by him. Krilin wasn't weaker than Drakulaman either, but loosing blood exhausted him. Just saying that a victory is not always proof of being stronger.

[Bullza]

It's easier to say that

100% SSJB Vegeta = 100% SSJB Goku > SSJR Black > Normal SSJB Vegeta = Normal SSJB Goku

Of course the normal SSJB has its power drain rapidly. SSJB Goku without the aura is him using 100% of his power while SSJB Vegeta switches forms quickly to do the same. Except Goku's method allows him to use 100% for a prolonged period so it's superior in that regard.

[Lord Beerus]

That can't work. Vegeta was using SSJB to kick SSJR Goku Black's ass after his training in the ROSAT.

No, that was the SSG and SSB switching strategy. He was obviously not stronger than Black SSR in SSG and I don't think he was in SSB either. But one punch at a time, he exhausted him, taking the victory.

Upa and Puar were not stronger than Drakulaman, neither than Krilin, who was defeated by him. Krilin wasn't weaker than Drakulaman either, but loosing blood exhausted him. Just saying that a victory is not always proof of being stronger.

99.999% in Dragon Ball that is the case though. Goku Black wouldn't have gotten beaten around as bad as he did if Vegeta's SSJB at that time wasn't strong enough to do damage to him. That's why he never bothered to attack him as a SSJG. The only reason he used that form was to make sure he didn't burn through the power SSJB gives.

[Marlowe89]

It's easier to say that

100% SSJB Vegeta = 100% SSJB Goku > SSJR Black > Normal SSJB Vegeta = Normal SSJB Goku

Of course the normal SSJB has its power drain rapidly. SSJB Goku without the aura is him using 100% of his power while SSJB Vegeta switches forms quickly to do the same. Except Goku's method allows him to use 100% for a prolonged period so it's superior in that regard.

To add to this, they even have mirroring dialogue to further establish that they were trying to solve the same problem. Goku specifically tells Trunks "Blue's power can't be maintained for long so this is Vegeta's way around that" and two chapters later, Vegeta tells Trunks the exact same thing about Goku.

It had nothing to do with becoming stronger because 100% Blue is already much stronger by default.

[Basako]

99.999% in Dragon Ball that is the case though. Goku Black wouldn't have gotten beaten around as bad as he did if Vegeta's SSJB at that time wasn't strong enough to do damage to him. That's why he never bothered to attack him as a SSJG. The only reason he used that form was to make sure he didn't burn through the power SSJB gives.

Maybe in those little instants in SSB he was stronger than SSR Black, could be, but I'm not gonna put him higher until he finds a way to mantain that some more, because it could cause misunderstandings, like to think Vegeta in regular SSB is stronger. He had to use the switching strategy to win, I don't know how to reflect that in the list.

[Hugo Boss]

99.999% in Dragon Ball that is the case though. Goku Black wouldn't have gotten beaten around as bad as he did if Vegeta's SSJB at that time wasn't strong enough to do damage to him. That's why he never bothered to attack him as a SSJG. The only reason he used that form was to make sure he didn't burn through the power SSJB gives.

Maybe in those little instants in SSB he was stronger than SSR Black, could be, but I'm not gonna put him higher until he finds a way to mantain that some more, because it could cause misunderstandings, like to think Vegeta in regular SSB is stronger. He had to use the switching strategy to win, I don't know how to reflect that in the list.

Just put him between SSR Black and Full Power SSB Goku.

I was reading chapter 23 a while ago and I had the impression Goku and Vegeta were a bit stronger in their SSB forms than their SSG, with Vegeta being a tad behind Goku.

[LightBing]

SSJB Vegeta is weaker than SSJR Goku Black. What Vegeta was doing was grinding him out. Almost the whole chapter fighting and Black was still standing with just a few bruises.

Let's say Black spent 1% for each movement he made, Vegeta would be spending 0,5%, eventually Vegeta would have the upper hand; just an example. It's the same idea as Golden Freeza vs SSJB Goku in the FnF movie.

What irks me in the power scaling of this arc is how little of a boost SSJR is. I mean SSJB Vegeta was even with SSJ Goku Black, the gain was tiny.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSJB Vegeta is weaker than SSJR Goku Black. What Vegeta was doing was grinding him out. Almost the whole chapter fighting and Black was still standing with just a few bruises.

Let's say Black spent 1% for each movement he made, Vegeta would be spending 0,5%, eventually Vegeta would have the upper hand; just an example. It's the same idea as Golden Freeza vs SSJB Goku in the FnF movie.

What irks me in the power scaling of this arc is how little of a boost SSJR is. I mean SSJB Vegeta was even with SSJ Goku Black, the gain was tiny.

At least in the anime, Goku Black only has the SSR transformation on top of a VERY strong base form, plus he only landed the one hit on SSB Vegeta in base, PLUS he likes to take hits because he likes that the pain will make him stronger.

[Bullza]

Black is a little confusing power level wise. His Base strength is hundreds of times stronger than Goku's but there's not nearly as big a difference with his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form. In the manga he's actually weaker than Goku's full strength.

They also never explained why Black's power didn't drain rapidly in that form unlike Goku or Vegeta either.

At a guess I'd say that Black did not unlock all of Goku's power. His SSGSS form was very strong but not to such ridiculous lengths that at full power it begins to drop like a rock.

Perhaps he was one more zenkai away from having all of Goku's power finally usable to him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta SSB was at a disadvantage against Black SSJ in the first fight in the future.

He could not even scratch Black in the second fight if he was not stronger. Even sparing energy and wearing Black little by little, this would simply be useless because he would hardly have reacted to Black's attacks.

That's why I think Vegeta SSB 100%> Black SSJ Rosé = or > Vegeta SSG

[BlueBasilisk]

My impression of Black, at least in the anime, was that he kept Zamasu's power level after swapping bodies with Goku and got progressively stronger the more he fought and adjusted to the body. Zamasu seemed to be somewhere between SS1 and SS2 Goku already so it makes sense that Black would be so much stronger in base and Rose.

[KingKaash]

I don't have time to read through all the pages on here so I apologize if this has been asked already...

But if Majin Buu absorbed Ultimate Gohan now (prior to ToP), would Ultimate Majin Buuhan be stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta?

[Desassina]

DB Super power increases:

SSJ/SSJ God (anime) = SSJ/SSJ Blue 10% (manga) = 10
SSJ Blue (anime) = SSJ God & SSJ Blue (manga) = 100
Kaioken x10 SSJB = Full Power SSJB (manga) = 1000

Goku fought Beerus as a SSJ God and the power was kept with SSJ. We never saw it again in the anime, so we could assume that when Goku is a SSJ, he's using all of SSJG from a stronger base. SSJ2 and SSJ3 build on top of it with 2 and 4 times the power increase in succession until he becomes an 80 - it's still lower than SSJB.

The manga is a little bit harder to explain, but SSJB is always 10% of its full extent (100), either when they power up from base, bringing it to about SSJ, or when they use SSJG for the transition, with the difference being that Goku can use full power on top, and Vegeta the same by transforming briefly. Here's an example:

1. Goku transforms into SSJG (100) and then SSJB (1000), but his power is brought to 10%, so it's the same as the former. He completes his full power and goes back to 1000.
2. Vegeta transforms into SSJB (100), but his power is brought to 10%, until he learns SSJG (100) and briefly transforms before the power is cut so that he can enjoy 1000.

Ultimately, the anime was made simpler by cutting SSJG, and using Kaioken x10. However, Vegeta is left without a power up, so could he use a Blue Oozaru form?

[Bullza]

In the newest chapter of the manga it looks like Goku can do the Hakai technique. It also seemed like Merged Zamasu and Vegeta powered up but it's hard to say what's going on with that.

[Lord Frieza]

Black is a little confusing power level wise. His Base strength is hundreds of times stronger than Goku's but there's not nearly as big a difference with his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form. In the manga he's actually weaker than Goku's full strength.

They also never explained why Black's power didn't drain rapidly in that form unlike Goku or Vegeta either.

At a guess I'd say that Black did not unlock all of Goku's power. His SSGSS form was very strong but not to such ridiculous lengths that at full power it begins to drop like a rock.

Perhaps he was one more zenkai away from having all of Goku's power finally usable to him.

I think anime Black's power states are...

Goku Black - Still mastering Goku's power, dose not have SS forms due to Zamasu's inflaunce, is as powerful as Goku SS3.

Black (Goku's Body Mastered and Super Zenkai Boost) - Significant power increase to the point he can take a beating from SSB.

Super Saiyan Rose - By this point in the anime, Goku and Vegeta seem to have overcome the power drain, Black seems to have done so to. Stronger then average SSB.

SSR and Super Zenkai boost - Surpasses Rage Boosted Goku, then Rage Trunks. Gains his enhanced ki blade. Is surpassed by Vegeta.

Rage Boosted SSR and Super Zenkai Boost - Gains Ki Scythe and clones, power level in comparison to heroes unknown.

[Marlowe89]

Manga spoilers are abound.

Complete Super Saiyan Blue is definitely much stronger than both the anime and manga's versions of normal Super Saiyan Blue. Goku can use Hakai now and almost completely wiped out Merged Zamasu with one attack.

Zamasu survived the ordeal though and apparently has the upper hand now, so I suppose he's ever so slightly stronger. I guess we'll find out more when the full chapter releases.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Manga spoilers are abound.

Complete Super Saiyan Blue is definitely much stronger than both the anime and manga's versions of normal Super Saiyan Blue. Goku can use Hakai now and almost completely wiped out Merged Zamasu with one attack.

Zamasu survived the ordeal though and apparently has the upper hand now, so I suppose he's ever so slightly stronger. I guess we'll find out more when the full chapter releases.

So, in the manga at least, one has to approach the strength of a God of Destruction to be able to use the Hakai technique? Or did Goku just learn it at some point?

[Bullza]

Well I'm not sure if this is a rage boost here for Vegeta

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And I'm not sure if this is any kind of power. In the anime he did have two power ups but in the manga he's just been the same strength up to yet.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Marlowe89]

So, in the manga at least, one has to approach the strength of a God of Destruction to be able to use the Hakai technique? Or did Goku just learn it at some point?

Certain summaries are claiming that he can use the technique by focusing 100% of his power into his fist (disclaimer: I have no idea if this is true), so for Goku I'd assume it's something entirely exclusive to the Complete form. I don't know if it means he's approaching Beerus' strength, especially since it appears that Beerus can use it casually, but it's certainly a sign he's a lot closer to it than before.

On a general note, it's crazy how much more interesting and in-depth the manga has been compared to the anime during this fight. I honestly feel like it'd be almost criminal at this point not to adapt Toyotaro's version of Super into an anime itself someday.

[LowRyder2005]

OAV series with adequate budget, good character models, improved animation and the script of the manga? Ufotable's Fate/stay night-kind-of-quality? Eh, one can dream.