Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Ki Breaker]

Mastered golden freeza is equal to goku who got at least 10 times more powerful after Resurrection F..

Considering that how does mastered Golden Freeza stack against SSR Black?

[buutenks]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

[Ki Breaker]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

How are we reaching this conclusion?

[AvatarReiko]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

How are we reaching this conclusion?

Goku was tanking the destruction energy in his base form.

According to the subs I read... Sidra only gave that dog a portion of the Hakai... that's probably the reason Frieza was able to control it. I think it's safe to assume a 100% hakai from Sidra would've killed Frieza. Still a good feat by Frieza tho.. I'll give him that.

Where did you read this? The subs I read never mentioned that at all and I use horrible subs, which are ripped from Chrunchyroll

I'm calling it. Golden Freeza is going to get wrecked by Jiren!!!

There are 2 logical reason why we would have that line about Goku being evenly matched to improved Golden Frieza. It's either to show how much Frieza has improved or to set a standard to the viewer. So we go into the ToP knowing Frieza and Goku are even, but Jiren stomps Frieza. Then, we as viewers poop are pants because we think Goku is a match to Frieza.

Even if my reasons are off, I still think Jiren will poop on Freeza's face. They need to have Jiren smash someone who the viewer knows is a real threat (goku, vegeta, Freeza, maybe gohan, or even Hit).

Problem is, Goku wasn't exactly going all out in that final clash. He didn't even use KKx10

[Ki Breaker]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

How are we reaching this conclusion?

Goku was tanking the destruction energy in his base form.

He wasn't tanking it, he was trying not to die..
Though I agree his base is significantly stonger than before otherwise he wouldn't survive, it's still not OP worthy

[ZombieVito]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

How are we reaching this conclusion?

Well he survived a Hakai while Zamasu couldn't. There's also the fact that Freeza was surprised Goku couldn't escaped it.

If he is hundreds or thousands of times weaker in base then why was Freeza surprised?

[Ki Breaker]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

How are we reaching this conclusion?

Well he survived a Hakai while Zamasu couldn't. There's also the fact that Freeza was surprised Goku couldn't escaped it.

If he is hundreds or thousands of times weaker in base then why the surprise?

That wasn't a hakai done by god in person..
Sidra was confident he could hakai freeza even after freeza shrugged his ball off..

gods can easily manipulate how much energy they need to destroy a certain person for and give out that much for a hakai..

Sidra misjudged freeza's strength and gave one weak enough to not destroy base goku..

[AvatarReiko]

How are we reaching this conclusion?

Goku was tanking the destruction energy in his base form.

He wasn't tanking it, he was trying not to die..
Though I agree his base is significantly stonger than before otherwise he wouldn't survive, it's still not OP worthy

Either way, he withstood it, which is OP as hell considering that it erases whatever it touches

[SansrivaaL]

Sidra: Take this hakai energy, anyone who gets hit by this wont come out unscathed, they wont go to the other world and their very existence will be destroyed.
Golden Freeza *shrugs it off
Base Goku *survives it
Beerus *blows it off
Talk about hyping himself too much.

[Ki Breaker]

Either way, he withstood it, which is OP as hell considering that it erases whatever it touches

He would be OP if he survived it on his own and came out unscathed..
He didn't survive it on his own berrus had to blow it away, and he was saying what a relief while Looking like shit inside after coming out of it..
Sidra misjudged the amount of energy required here, after that ball Was shrugged off sidra was still confident he can hakai freeza..

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, Freeza underwent several years of mental control in Hell to stay "sane" and not give in to repentance.

Dude has an iron will, I'll give him that. Thanks to said mental concentration, as well as focusing on killing Goku in horrific and violent ways, he learned to control his energy in Golden form, which got rid of his stamina issue and raised his strength.

I'd say that it's a combination of Golden Freeza tapping into more his potential and SSB Goku/Vegeta's gains not being as massive, mathematically, as we thought. Thus, he's only equal to Goku and Vegeta in SSB, not above them. That level of power is also able to contain a God of Destruction's Energy of Destruction with a little bit of effort, but not massive amounts.

Certainly much less compared to base Goku struggling and nearly dying to this energy despite giving it his all.

[LowRyder2005]

Mastered golden freeza is equal to goku who got at least 10 times more powerful after Resurrection F..

Considering that how does mastered Golden Freeza stack against SSR Black?

I haven't seen the episode (yet), but - as many other users already stated - it wasn't established anywhere that Goku was "at least ten times more powerful". It's something fans had tentatively extrapolated as the best solution to justify some narrative occurence.

If anything, if Golden Freeza is still intended to be quite comparable to Goku, that is, the fact outright disproves the notion Goku made colossal leaps in power, with his resiliency to Hit's timeskip in later episodes having more to do with technique and finesse than sheer power. It appears rather doubtful that Freeza wasn't fighting at his 100% at least in the very, very beginning of the big Resurrection F fight. Or before he had lost substantial power due to stamina issues.

[Ki Breaker]

Mastered golden freeza is equal to goku who got at least 10 times more powerful after Resurrection F..

Considering that how does mastered Golden Freeza stack against SSR Black?

I haven't seen the episode (yet), but - as many other users already stated - it wasn't established anywhere that Goku was "at least ten times more powerful". It's something fans had tentatively extrapolated as the best solution to justify some narrative occurence.

If anything, if Golden Freeza is still intended to be quite comparable to Goku, that is, the fact outright disproves the notion Goku made colossal leaps in power, with his resiliency to Hit's timeskip in later episodes having more to do with technique and finesse than sheer power. It appears rather doubtful that Freeza wasn't fighting at his 100% at least in the very, very beginning of the big Resurrection F fight. Or before he had lost substantial power due to stamina issues.

Fair enough, the leaps had been repeated so many times I forgot they weren't as concrete as we were led to think..

[Bullza]

All I'd say is that

Merged Zamasu with the Halo was stronger than SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 and a slightly serious Beerus going by Vegeta's comment.

Goku and Vegeta and so at the same time Trunks, Hit and Golden Frieza are over half as strong as Merged Zamasu.

So Goku, Vegeta and Hit must have got maybe half a dozen times stronger, I don't think that's too farfetched because we know they're much stronger than before.

Frieza has gotten stronger as well. Maybe he was stronger than we originally thought. From what we saw of him, I'd still say at best he was weaker than SSJR Black (Dagger) and now he's improved to the point he's stronger than SSJR Black (Scythe).

SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 = Toppo > Merged Zamasu > SSJB Goku = True Golden Frieza > Hit > SSJR Black (Scythe) > (Scimitar) > (Dagger) > Golden Frieza

[Marlowe89]

I haven't seen the episode (yet), but - as many other users already stated - it wasn't established anywhere that Goku was "at least ten times more powerful". It's something fans had tentatively extrapolated as the best solution to justify some narrative occurence.

If anything, if Golden Freeza is still intended to be quite comparable to Goku, that is, the fact outright disproves the notion Goku made colossal leaps in power, with his resiliency to Hit's timeskip in later episodes having more to do with technique and finesse than sheer power. It appears rather doubtful that Freeza wasn't fighting at his 100% at least in the very, very beginning of the big Resurrection F fight. Or before he had lost substantial power due to stamina issues.

That's about as best as I could have put it.

Ultimately, expressing Goku's gains in multiplication terms (whether it's ten times or even five times) isn't based on anything directly established in the anime, it's based entirely on an extrapolation of events and statements from different points in the anime. It's hardly a conclusive way of gauging things as-is, but it's even less convincing when you consider the fact that Frieza's improvement was attributed more to his stamina management rather than any significant boost in raw power, or the fact that Vegeta clearly stated that training would only provide marginal boosts for himself and Goku at this point in their lives. We know they gradually become stronger as the series progresses, but we're given very little incentive to declare that those boosts are as immense as some might think. Even if there are multiple instances of "I've become stronger" in the series for the same character, it's still not enough to conclude that a character's power has even so much as doubled since the initial run.

People are also underestimating just how massive a two times increase would be at Super Saiyan Blue levels of power, which is corroborated in the anime when Goku dominates almost every opponent he fights when using just the regular Kaioken. It even overpowered Merged Zamasu, who couldn't have been exponentially more powerful than Super Saiyan Rose Black since Black was already stronger than Goku and Vegeta according to the dialogue.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This was really a Hakai of Sidra, intent on killing.

This shows that the technique only works with much lower beings, after all it depends on the power of the user. The difference is that it erases the existence of the opponent, who does not even go to the '' Other World ''

Beerus repelled the ball with a breath, but attacking the distance is easy, for Freeza also destroyed the sphere with a blow, Showing that he, Goku and Vegeta are much closer to the power of a Hakaishin

If Goku did not get much stronger since the Champa tournament, like Hit Tokitobashi (who stopped Goku Kaioken x10) no longer works on Goku SSB?

I see it like this: Goku Kaioken> Vegeta SSB (after training again in RoSaT)> or = Goku SSB = True Golden Freeza = Toppo> ou = Hit> Black

[Desassina]

The way I see it, and to address the manga and anime differences, with symbolic quantities or tiers:

Base Goku was 1 in the Boo saga.
The ritual was made and he's now 1'000 as a SSJG.
He kept that power through SSJ as if it were a normal increase over base.
Goku powers down by how many times he would have increased into SSJ from base (10 fold).
He's 100 times stronger than he was in the Boo saga with a similar transformation or state. SSJG was the trigger.
That means that his powered up forms (SSJ2 and 3) are now stronger than when he transformed into SSJG in Battle of Gods.
In the manga, it has been recovered and presented as a constant power up, beyond that of SSJ2 and 3, so their base doesn't need to change.
SSJ Blue in the manga would go from 10% to Full Power, or 10 times the latter in case SSJG was used before it, which means that SSJ2 and 3 are still below SSJG.

It's obviously speculation, but the only means to keep it leveled with the events, in case we thought that they were too inconsistent.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Goku's base form is OP again, lol.

How are we reaching this conclusion?

Goku was tanking the destruction energy in his base form.

According to the subs I read... Sidra only gave that dog a portion of the Hakai... that's probably the reason Frieza was able to control it. I think it's safe to assume a 100% hakai from Sidra would've killed Frieza. Still a good feat by Frieza tho.. I'll give him that.

Where did you read this? The subs I read never mentioned that at all and I use horrible subs, which are ripped from Chrunchyroll

I'm calling it. Golden Freeza is going to get wrecked by Jiren!!!

There are 2 logical reason why we would have that line about Goku being evenly matched to improved Golden Frieza. It's either to show how much Frieza has improved or to set a standard to the viewer. So we go into the ToP knowing Frieza and Goku are even, but Jiren stomps Frieza. Then, we as viewers poop are pants because we think Goku is a match to Frieza.

Even if my reasons are off, I still think Jiren will poop on Freeza's face. They need to have Jiren smash someone who the viewer knows is a real threat (goku, vegeta, Freeza, maybe gohan, or even Hit).

Problem is, Goku wasn't exactly going all out in that final clash. He didn't even use KKx10

Before giving the dog his energy... Sidra says I'll give you some energy of destruction... the hakai energy sphere wasn't at full strength.... only a portion.

[LowRyder2005]

All I'd say is that

Merged Zamasu with the Halo was stronger than SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 and a slightly serious Beerus going by Vegeta's comment.

Goku and Vegeta and so at the same time Trunks, Hit and Golden Frieza are over half as strong as Merged Zamasu.

So Goku, Vegeta and Hit must have got maybe half a dozen times stronger, I don't think that's too farfetched because we know they're much stronger than before.

Frieza has gotten stronger as well. Maybe he was stronger than we originally thought. From what we saw of him, I'd still say at best he was weaker than SSJR Black (Dagger) and now he's improved to the point he's stronger than SSJR Black (Scythe).

SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 = Toppo > Merged Zamasu > SSJB Goku = True Golden Frieza > Hit > SSJR Black (Scythe) > (Scimitar) > (Dagger) > Golden Frieza

I'd agree with the general picture, at least when addressing the fact that we have Fused Zamas making every explanation a little lopsided.
Then again, it'd be either accepting that Freeza powered up while doing... basically nothing, or that Golden Freeza was theoretically many, many times the power of Blue Goku back in the ROF saga. The problem I perceive with the latter is that such a gap wasn't really addressed when Golden Freeza showed up for the first time: both he and Goku sensed their respective powers and - while Freeza was proven to be stronger - you definitely didn't get the impression he would completely overwhelm Super Saiyan Blue Goku. So you'd basically have to argue Freeza got, in turn, many, many times stronger by doing nothing in Hell instead of just reaching the apparent "serenity" needed to manage his stamina properly.

Going back to Fused Zamas, I think he was intended to be the strongest entity which had appeared in the series that far, stronger than Kaioken * 10 Goku, like you yourself put it. The fights at that point, though, are ridden with so much plot-induced stupidity in favor of visuals and drama - basically a Firelord vs. Spider-Man situation popping out every twenty minutes or so - that this undertone came off much more feebly than intended.

Ultimately, I think I'd have an easier time reconciling it by arguing it was Zamas fighting super-carelessly and getting constantly sucker-punched by this or that character than those very characters and situations (bar Vegito and, I guess, Ikari Trunks with the Earth's genki) posing a real threat to the guy. I mean, if his power was "unfathomable" or beyond comprehension and yet Super Saiyan Blue * 2 Goku could kick him around something wouldn't feel right all the same.
Granted, if you give "proper" weight to the feats in the Zamas arc, it's not like there's really much to quantify Goku's gains or where Current Goku/Merged Zamas/Freeza stood in power; nevertheless, I'd still have a very hard time when entertaining the idea of Freeza becoming "physically" stronger in Hell among all the possibilities presented. I mean, on paper, it doesn't really jibe with the idea he was supposedly imprisoned, incapacitated (or possibly, at this point, "whatever he was supposed to be"?).

[MisteryOne]

So is there any actual implication of how Sidra's power compares to Golden Frieza and Beerus? I have not seen the episode yet.