Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

So is there any actual implication of how Sidra's power compares to Golden Frieza and Beerus? I have not seen the episode yet.

Sidra gives "some" of his Hakai Ki to the Doggo assassin. It's enough to restrain (base) Goku and even Freeza shows visible effort in trying to nullify the attack. Beerus on the other hand, pretty much sneezes the attack away.

We don't know how much of his Ki Sidra used, but it has to be close to his full power, since he was later doubting his ability to destroy Freeza. Not to mention, it seems that he might actually be weaker than SSB Goku judging from his reaction to Goku's Blue form ("How terrifying", he says). Also, Rou states that SSB Goku's power rivals the Gods, possibly referring to Sidra.

Obligatory numbers since this is the power levels thread:
Sidra- 9
Golden Freeza- 9.4
SSB Goku- 9.4
Beerus- 100

[The gr]

So is there any actual implication of how Sidra's power compares to Golden Frieza and Beerus? I have not seen the episode yet.

Sidra gives "some" of his Hakai Ki to the Doggo assassin. It's enough to restrain (base) Goku and even Freeza shows visible effort in trying to nullify the attack. Beerus on the other hand, pretty much sneezes the attack away.

We don't know how much of his Ki Sidra used, but it has to be close to his full power, since he was later doubting his ability to destroy Freeza. Not to mention, it seems that he might actually be weaker than SSB Goku judging from his reaction to Goku's Blue form ("How terrifying", he says). Also, Rou states that SSB Goku's power rivals the Gods, possibly referring to Sidra.

Obligatory numbers since this is the power levels thread:
Sidra- 9
Golden Freeza- 9.4
SSB Goku- 9.4
Beerus- 100

And you forgot to mention, This version of frieza is way stronger than he was in rof,he's been training in hell

[ekrolo2]

So is there any actual implication of how Sidra's power compares to Golden Frieza and Beerus? I have not seen the episode yet.

Sidra gives "some" of his Hakai Ki to the Doggo assassin. It's enough to restrain (base) Goku and even Freeza shows visible effort in trying to nullify the attack. Beerus on the other hand, pretty much sneezes the attack away.

We don't know how much of his Ki Sidra used, but it has to be close to his full power, since he was later doubting his ability to destroy Freeza. Not to mention, it seems that he might actually be weaker than SSB Goku judging from his reaction to Goku's Blue form ("How terrifying", he says). Also, Rou states that SSB Goku's power rivals the Gods, possibly referring to Sidra.

Obligatory numbers since this is the power levels thread:
Sidra- 9
Golden Freeza- 9.4
SSB Goku- 9.4
Beerus- 100

Wow! Goku's almost as strong as Vegeta was during his LOL RAGETA! moment from the first arc

[LowRyder2005]

So is there any actual implication of how Sidra's power compares to Golden Frieza and Beerus? I have not seen the episode yet.

Sidra gives "some" of his Hakai Ki to the Doggo assassin. It's enough to restrain (base) Goku and even Freeza shows visible effort in trying to nullify the attack. Beerus on the other hand, pretty much sneezes the attack away.

We don't know how much of his Ki Sidra used, but it has to be close to his full power, since he was later doubting his ability to destroy Freeza. Not to mention, it seems that he might actually be weaker than SSB Goku judging from his reaction to Goku's Blue form ("How terrifying", he says). Also, Rou states that SSB Goku's power rivals the Gods, possibly referring to Sidra.

Obligatory numbers since this is the power levels thread:
Sidra- 9
Golden Freeza- 9.4
SSB Goku- 9.4
Beerus- 100

And you forgot to mention, This version of frieza is way stronger than he was in rof,he's been training in hell

That's at best a claim, and a bold one, most certainly not something the episode stated or, for that matter, directly implied. Unless you meant that he "trained" as in "meditated to improve his stamina".
Power-wise, it's doubtful he could be "stronger" than the Golden Freeza we saw in ROF at his maximum output. At least at this point in time.

Technically speaking, Freeza's improved power management is more or less like the "mastered" Super Saiyan Blue which appeared in the latest chapters of the manga (with no "cons" to speak of, that is).

[buutenks]

Seems to me from the episode, that Freeza simply mastered his stamina issue. He did not raise his power level. This means that Goku did not get 10x stronger, he got stronger due to fighting Black and Hit, but his gains merely got him on equal footing with Golden Freeza from RoF(who from the moment he went Golden, started to rapidly lose power).

So current power scaling list would be kkxssj blue Goku>Black Rose>/=ssj blue Vegeta>ssj blue Goku=Golden Freeza=Hit(current)>u6 arc ssj blue Goku and Vegeta.

[MisteryOne]

Thanks for the explanations guys. Interesting that there is a Hakaishin probably weaker than Goku.

I'm a bit confused trough, didn't Goku said to Hit that his timeskip was not going to work against him anymore? If he wasn't that much stronger compared to his Champa arc himself, I don't get how it could work on his Kaioken x10 but not on his normal Blue form.

[ekrolo2]

That's at best a claim, and a bold one, most certainly not something the episode stated or, for that matter, directly implied. Unless you meant that he "trained" as in "meditated to improve his stamina".
Power-wise, it's doubtful he could be "stronger" than the Golden Freeza we saw in ROF at his maximum output. At least at this point in time.

Technically speaking, Freeza's improved power management is more or less like the "mastered" Super Saiyan Blue which appeared in the latest chapters of the manga (with no "cons" to speak of, that is).

I don't really see how Freeza can't be more powerful since he's strong enough to knock Goku out with a single punch, a Goku who we know is stronger since his default Blue it too strong for Time Skip to effect now.

[LowRyder2005]

That's at best a claim, and a bold one, most certainly not something the episode stated or, for that matter, directly implied. Unless you meant that he "trained" as in "meditated to improve his stamina".
Power-wise, it's doubtful he could be "stronger" than the Golden Freeza we saw in ROF at his maximum output. At least at this point in time.

Technically speaking, Freeza's improved power management is more or less like the "mastered" Super Saiyan Blue which appeared in the latest chapters of the manga (with no "cons" to speak of, that is).

I don't really see how Freeza can't be more powerful since he's strong enough to knock Goku out with a single punch, a Goku who we know is stronger since his default Blue it too strong for Time Skip to effect now.

The user buutenks above made a post about it, I'd basically vouch for what he said: Golden Freeza should still be below the likes of the "multi" SSB tier, to me. Basically, people SSB + KK Goku, Toppo, Jiren and Fused Zamas. Goku, in turn, was able to compensate the gap between him and a hypothetical "100%" Golden Freeza through training and the subsequent fights, the 100% that we either saw very briefly (if Freeza went all out from the start) or didn't see at all.
Other than that the "100% Golden Freeza" still shouldn't be leaps and bounds above the SSB Goku from back then, at least probably, given the nature of their banter in ROF.

Regarding the Time Skip, my opinion is that it's easier to justify with Goku understanding the technique on a more fundamental level than... well, "bruteforcing" through it, I guess? It sounds less hard to swallow to me than Freeza's ki increasing half a dozen times because he "kept picturing himself in the act of killing Goku" again and again.

This is all in-universe. Out of universe I merely believe that, admitting Toei wanted to gave Freeza such a power-up regardless of the circumstances, they would have been much more clear-cut about it. If they opted for some power-management to solution instead of a statement telling us "I got much stronger" in clear terms, I'd wager it's because even they grasped that a concept such as Freeza training in a cocoon might have been a little too audacious from a narrative standpoint.

[ekrolo2]

The user buutenks above made a post about it, I'd basically vouch for what he said: Golden Freeza should still be below the likes of the "multi" SSB tier, to me. Basically, people SSB + KK Goku, Toppo, Jiren and Fused Zamas. Goku, in turn, was able to compensate the gap between him and a hypothetical "100%" Golden Freeza through training and the subsequent fights, the 100% that we either saw very briefly (if Freeza went all out from the start) or didn't see at all.
Other than that the "100% Golden Freeza" still shouldn't be leaps and bounds above the SSB Goku from back then, at least probably, given the nature of their banter in ROF.

Regarding the Time Skip, my opinion is that it's easier to justify with Goku understanding the technique on a more fundamental level than... well, "bruteforcing" through it, I guess? It sounds less hard to swallow to me than Freeza's ki increasing half a dozen times because he "kept picturing himself in the act of killing Goku" again and again.

I never said he was as strong as Jiren or Toppo but he and Goku both smash one another and knock each other out in Golden and Blue respectively, that implies that they're even and that Freeza is stronger from before by extension of Goku being stronger.

Goku's understanding of Time Skip being a factor would probably mean something to me if brute force wasn't why Hit didn't smash his shit in the last time. He literally powers up more and through sheer power breaks Time Skip, not through any better use of his initial understanding of his mechanics.

[LowRyder2005]

Maybe he could do with "less ki" what he needed to do with "more ki"? Again, not in an "exerting more force" sense, but more like using some force to pick a lock he then knew the combination of against the superior force needed to smash it? I honestly don't know, I suppose I'm trying way too hard to justify Toei's whimsical writing in the first place.

Regardless, it's probably a valid objection, but Freeza getting stronger in the sense of "increasing his ki" while being trapped in a cocoon appears much less convincing to me than Goku breaking the Time Skip through some shenanigans. Understanding Hit's techniques to overcome was still a major theme in those episodes, so that's why I'm lead to justify it that way.

All the more, while discounting my qualms about the intended narrative, I'd still deem significant Freeza going at lenght on how and what he did to improve his energy consumption while neglecting to even remotely mention, supposedly, the most important result: getting a whoppin' dozen of times stronger.

[ssbgoku]

Hello guys, so after watching the latest episode of dragon ball super anime. Golden Frieeza having short but still struggle with containing and controlling part of Sidra destruction's energy, I would point out that:
- Freeza had to restrict power of Sidra's attack when he hit goku(only restrain him) or Goku was powering up to ssb but couldn't transform so his power was between base and ssb power.
- Base goku is still vastly infferior to golden freeza as base goku is 400 times weaker then even current ss3 goku and golden freeza is equal to ssb goku.
- No bullshit god ki essence base goku/vegeta
- Kaioken ssb goku can be threat to even beerus, and suprassing him or killing him with kkx10 ssb.

[Draconic]

I don't really see how Freeza can't be more powerful since he's strong enough to knock Goku out with a single punch, a Goku who we know is stronger since his default Blue it too strong for Time Skip to effect now.

I don't really get why Goku's regular Blue form has to be stronger/as strong as his Kaioken from back at the tournament. He tells Hit his Time Skip won't work on him anymore, but we also know that he can now use Kaioken quite casually. Hit decides not to use the technique, but he also knows how Goku overcame it the last time, so he could assume that's what he'd do now too.
Sure, he also knows the technique is dangerous, but seeing Goku confident like that should be enough to persuade him, especially since he also knows Goku wouldn't have just sat around for all the time between the two fights.

Then, his other killing moves don't really call for something as drastic and, without Time Skip, even back then Goku was quite a notch above Hit in pure strength just with the base Blue form, so if they improved at a similar rate, Goku would still be the stronger one.

Whatever increase Goku had was enough to break the dimension where Hit retreats, but those are two quite different things. The Time Skip skips time, so Goku has to be fast enough to counter it, the Time Dimension is based on the time skipped by the Tokitobashi, so Goku has to be powerful enough to continuously attack Hit long enough for that time to deplete and have him come back to the real world.

Basically, Hit avoids attacks in the Time Dimension, but once those are done he comes back to counter. If he's there when Goku exerts power continuously he's forced to spend time there long enough for that time to run out and the Dimension to break. That doesn't really require the Kaioken.

[ekrolo2]

I don't really see how Freeza can't be more powerful since he's strong enough to knock Goku out with a single punch, a Goku who we know is stronger since his default Blue it too strong for Time Skip to effect now.

I don't really get why Goku's regular Blue form has to be stronger/as strong as his Kaioken from back at the tournament. He tells Hit his Time Skip won't work on him anymore, but we also know that he can now use Kaioken quite casually. Hit decides not to use the technique, but he also knows how Goku overcame it the last time, so he could assume that's what he'd do now too.
Sure, he also knows the technique is dangerous, but seeing Goku confident like that should be enough to persuade him, especially since he also knows Goku wouldn't have just sat around for all the time between the two fights.

Then, his other killing moves don't really call for something as drastic and, without Time Skip, even back then Goku was quite a notch above Hit in pure strength just with the base Blue form, so if they improved at a similar rate, Goku would still be the stronger one.

Whatever increase Goku had was enough to break the dimension where Hit retreats, but those are two quite different things. The Time Skip skips time, so Goku has to be fast enough to counter it, the Time Dimension is based on the time skipped by the Tokitobashi, so Goku has to be powerful enough to continuously attack Hit long enough for that time to deplete and have him come back to the real world.

Basically, Hit avoids attacks in the Time Dimension, but once those are done he comes back to counter. If he's there when Goku exerts power continuously he's forced to spend time there long enough for that time to run out and the Dimension to break. That doesn't really require the Kaioken.

Goku still needs to be powerful enough to break the dimension though. When Hit tries to surround himself in it during Goku's Kamehameha, it's the power behind Goku's attack that breaks through it. Goku needs to be stronger than he was before for his breaking of it later on to work at all.

I don't think Goku just powering up would cut it since Hit could've murdered him during his initial power up to KKX2 but chooses not to.

[Draconic]

I don't really see how Freeza can't be more powerful since he's strong enough to knock Goku out with a single punch, a Goku who we know is stronger since his default Blue it too strong for Time Skip to effect now.

I don't really get why Goku's regular Blue form has to be stronger/as strong as his Kaioken from back at the tournament. He tells Hit his Time Skip won't work on him anymore, but we also know that he can now use Kaioken quite casually. Hit decides not to use the technique, but he also knows how Goku overcame it the last time, so he could assume that's what he'd do now too.
Sure, he also knows the technique is dangerous, but seeing Goku confident like that should be enough to persuade him, especially since he also knows Goku wouldn't have just sat around for all the time between the two fights.

Then, his other killing moves don't really call for something as drastic and, without Time Skip, even back then Goku was quite a notch above Hit in pure strength just with the base Blue form, so if they improved at a similar rate, Goku would still be the stronger one.

Whatever increase Goku had was enough to break the dimension where Hit retreats, but those are two quite different things. The Time Skip skips time, so Goku has to be fast enough to counter it, the Time Dimension is based on the time skipped by the Tokitobashi, so Goku has to be powerful enough to continuously attack Hit long enough for that time to deplete and have him come back to the real world.

Basically, Hit avoids attacks in the Time Dimension, but once those are done he comes back to counter. If he's there when Goku exerts power continuously he's forced to spend time there long enough for that time to run out and the Dimension to break. That doesn't really require the Kaioken.

Goku still needs to be powerful enough to break the dimension though. When Hit tries to surround himself in it during Goku's Kamehameha, it's the power behind Goku's attack that breaks through it. Goku needs to be stronger than he was before for his breaking of it later on to work at all.

I don't think Goku just powering up would cut it since Hit could've murdered him during his initial power up to KKX2 but chooses not to.

But we don't really know how Goku would have fared against the dimension with the power at the tournament. Since even tournament Goku was stronger than tournament Hit, the outcome could have been the same back then as well, albeit on a smaller scale, since both are more powerful now. Techniques are dependent on how strong the user is after all and Hit got stronger too.

The moment they have the conversation about Time Skip not working takes place when Hit "kills" him anyway. In the actual fight, Hit does allow Goku to transform to Blue and by then they both agreed that Time Skip won't work, so Kaioken is off the tables for Goku too.

[ekrolo2]

I don't really get why Goku's regular Blue form has to be stronger/as strong as his Kaioken from back at the tournament. He tells Hit his Time Skip won't work on him anymore, but we also know that he can now use Kaioken quite casually. Hit decides not to use the technique, but he also knows how Goku overcame it the last time, so he could assume that's what he'd do now too.
Sure, he also knows the technique is dangerous, but seeing Goku confident like that should be enough to persuade him, especially since he also knows Goku wouldn't have just sat around for all the time between the two fights.

Then, his other killing moves don't really call for something as drastic and, without Time Skip, even back then Goku was quite a notch above Hit in pure strength just with the base Blue form, so if they improved at a similar rate, Goku would still be the stronger one.

Whatever increase Goku had was enough to break the dimension where Hit retreats, but those are two quite different things. The Time Skip skips time, so Goku has to be fast enough to counter it, the Time Dimension is based on the time skipped by the Tokitobashi, so Goku has to be powerful enough to continuously attack Hit long enough for that time to deplete and have him come back to the real world.

Basically, Hit avoids attacks in the Time Dimension, but once those are done he comes back to counter. If he's there when Goku exerts power continuously he's forced to spend time there long enough for that time to run out and the Dimension to break. That doesn't really require the Kaioken.

Goku still needs to be powerful enough to break the dimension though. When Hit tries to surround himself in it during Goku's Kamehameha, it's the power behind Goku's attack that breaks through it. Goku needs to be stronger than he was before for his breaking of it later on to work at all.

I don't think Goku just powering up would cut it since Hit could've murdered him during his initial power up to KKX2 but chooses not to.

But we don't really know how Goku would have fared against the dimension with the power at the tournament. Since even tournament Goku was stronger than tournament Hit, the outcome could have been the same back then as well, albeit on a smaller scale, since both are more powerful now. Techniques are dependent on how strong the user is after all and Hit got stronger too.

The moment they have the conversation about Time Skip not working takes place when Hit "kills" him anyway. In the actual fight, Hit does allow Goku to transform to Blue and by then they both agreed that Time Skip won't work, so Kaioken is off the tables for Goku too.

We do see how he fares, Hit is in the dimension and using it to hold back to the KK Kamehameha coming his way and then in the episode after said his Time Skip improved enough for him to outright dodge Goku's attack. Just watch the end of 39 and you'll see what I mean.

I guess you could see that as an agreement between them to hold back (which is weird since this is the stage where they're supposed to be cutting loose for fun but whatever) but like I already said, Hit uses the dimension thing and Goku just breaks it by powering up through brute force which is what he tried and failed with his KK Kamehameha from 39.

This implies a fairly big power increase for Goku who's regular KK wasn't able to keep Time Skip from affecting him.

[Marlowe89]

So current power scaling list would be kkxssj blue Goku>Black Rose>/=ssj blue Vegeta>ssj blue Goku=Golden Freeza=Hit(current)>u6 arc ssj blue Goku and Vegeta.

I'd probably put SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza above Hit in terms of raw power, but that's basically the exact order I have as well.

[LowRyder2005]

But we don't really know how Goku would have fared against the dimension with the power at the tournament. Since even tournament Goku was stronger than tournament Hit, the outcome could have been the same back then as well, albeit on a smaller scale, since both are more powerful now. Techniques are dependent on how strong the user is after all and Hit got stronger too.

The moment they have the conversation about Time Skip not working takes place when Hit "kills" him anyway. In the actual fight, Hit does allow Goku to transform to Blue and by then they both agreed that Time Skip won't work, so Kaioken is off the tables for Goku too.

To be honest, I had completely forgotten that one was supposed to be a "Time Dimension" technique and the other one a "Time Skip"; I'm pretty content with this explanation.
Even though it's reasonable to believe they work on the same principle, maybe Super Saiyan Blue Goku could have been unexpectedly able to power out at of it even during the tourney, like you said, with no need of Kaioken. It might potentially be fair to contend the dimension may be more susceptibles to kiais compared to the Time Skip.

[Bullza]

Checking the episode with the subs it seems as though Frieza both learned how to gain control of his form and also just got stronger as well.

As for Sidra, he said that he'd just defeat Frieza if he betrayed them but then the interesting part was Rou saying that it wouldn't be that easy.

Sidra might not be that much stronger than SSJB Goku or Golden Frieza. It'd sort of make sense if Jiren, possibly, is stronger than Belmoud and Beerus. The Top Tier mortals are probably approaching that God of Destruction level now. At least the weaker ones.

Going by what Whis said Jiren might be the only one stronger than a God of Destruction though because he did say "a mortal" as opposed to mortals.

[ZombieVito]

So current power scaling list would be kkxssj blue Goku>Black Rose>/=ssj blue Vegeta>ssj blue Goku=Golden Freeza=Hit(current)>u6 arc ssj blue Goku and Vegeta.

I'd probably put SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza above Hit in terms of raw power, but that's basically the exact order I have as well.

You think Black is still stronger than them?

[Draconic]

We do see how he fares, Hit is in the dimension and using it to hold back to the KK Kamehameha coming his way and then in the episode after said his Time Skip improved enough for him to outright dodge Goku's attack. Just watch the end of 39 and you'll see what I mean.

I guess you could see that as an agreement between them to hold back (which is weird since this is the stage where they're supposed to be cutting loose for fun but whatever) but like I already said, Hit uses the dimension thing and Goku just breaks it by powering up through brute force which is what he tried and failed with his KK Kamehameha from 39.

This implies a fairly big power increase for Goku who's regular KK wasn't able to keep Time Skip from affecting him.

But Hit doesn't use the dimension in episode 39. He just uses Time Skip. When he is in the dimension attacks pass trough him because he's not actually there. Time Skip envelops the opponent, not Hit. They aren't really the same thing.
As Vados explains it, Time Skip skips time. The time skipped is used to create this dimension that Hit can move freely in and out of and that's why he can be seen but not hurt. Hit doesn't move to the dimension during the Kamehameha since he's seen trying to block Goku while he's charging at him. If he were, there would be no need for that. He resorts to skipping time, not moving to the dimension.
During their second fight, Goku destroys that dimension and eventually hurts Hit.

They are two different techniques. Goku uses Kaioken to overcome the skipping of time, in order to be able to react, but the dimension he can't react too because it doesn't affect him, it affects Hit.
I think it's pretty obvious they are two different things, since if Hit had used it before, Goku wouldn't be so surprised when faced with it.

Oh, I'm not saying they agreed to hold back. Just that Time Skip is useless and both know Goku has a way to overcome it, so Hit drops it and uses his better techniques, for which Goku doesn't need Kaioken to overcome.

I mean, yeah, it is a substantial increase in power from the tournament, but I think 10x is a bit far fetched, since the situations Goku was faced with aren't similar enough, at least the way I see it, to warrant it.