"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

SSJBs flaw is just another stance change Toriyama's done, it shouldn't surprise anyone. The anime's just chosen to ignore it most of them time and only bring it up out of convenience whereas the manga's kept it a major factor for better or worse.

I'm really curious to know who's at fault - or more at fault - for the miscommunication. Mr.Toriyama clearly changed his mind regarding the power-scale and SSJB when we entered Super.

Toyotarõ didn't mess up the new normal - Beerus is very far away -, yet Toei did. Even thought for the longest time the manga was ahead of the anime. It's pretty weird.

I much prefer it this way. In Dragon Ball, with each arc Goku just dwarfed the previous villain, the sin of ridiculous power bloating. Fortunately this inst a problem in the Super manga. Beerus still is, like he should be, relevant. God Tier still matters.

The way the movies were going, if we had one or two more, Goku and Vegeta would have definitely surpassed Beerus.

Beerus is still really in a league of his own in the anime, too.

[Dragonballgod19]

SSJBs flaw is just another stance change Toriyama's done, it shouldn't surprise anyone. The anime's just chosen to ignore it most of them time and only bring it up out of convenience whereas the manga's kept it a major factor for better or worse.

I'm really curious to know who's at fault - or more at fault - for the miscommunication. Mr.Toriyama clearly changed his mind regarding the power-scale and SSJB when we entered Super.

Toyotarõ didn't mess up the new normal - Beerus is very far away -, yet Toei did. Even thought for the longest time the manga was ahead of the anime. It's pretty weird.

I much prefer it this way. In Dragon Ball, with each arc Goku just dwarfed the previous villain, the sin of ridiculous power bloating. Fortunately this inst a problem in the Super manga. Beerus still is, like he should be, relevant. God Tier still matters.

The way the movies were going, if we had one or two more, Goku and Vegeta would have definitely surpassed Beerus.

Beerus is still really in a league of his own in the anime, too.

It's kinda ridiculous how strong beerus is in the anime

[LightBing]

SSJBs flaw is just another stance change Toriyama's done, it shouldn't surprise anyone. The anime's just chosen to ignore it most of them time and only bring it up out of convenience whereas the manga's kept it a major factor for better or worse.

I'm really curious to know who's at fault - or more at fault - for the miscommunication. Mr.Toriyama clearly changed his mind regarding the power-scale and SSJB when we entered Super.

Toyotarõ didn't mess up the new normal - Beerus is very far away -, yet Toei did. Even thought for the longest time the manga was ahead of the anime. It's pretty weird.

I much prefer it this way. In Dragon Ball, with each arc Goku just dwarfed the previous villain, the sin of ridiculous power bloating. Fortunately this inst a problem in the Super manga. Beerus still is, like he should be, relevant. God Tier still matters.

The way the movies were going, if we had one or two more, Goku and Vegeta would have definitely surpassed Beerus.

Beerus is still really in a league of his own in the anime, too.

You are correct. As I was writing the post I kept remembering Angry Vegeta being 10% of Beerus and the Hakaishin being nervous regarding Kaioken Goku.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm really curious to know who's at fault - or more at fault - for the miscommunication. Mr.Toriyama clearly changed his mind regarding the power-scale and SSJB when we entered Super.

Toyotarõ didn't mess up the new normal - Beerus is very far away -, yet Toei did. Even thought for the longest time the manga was ahead of the anime. It's pretty weird.

I much prefer it this way. In Dragon Ball, with each arc Goku just dwarfed the previous villain, the sin of ridiculous power bloating. Fortunately this inst a problem in the Super manga. Beerus still is, like he should be, relevant. God Tier still matters.

The way the movies were going, if we had one or two more, Goku and Vegeta would have definitely surpassed Beerus.

Beerus is still really in a league of his own in the anime, too.

You are correct. As I was writing the post I kept remembering Angry Vegeta being 10% of Beerus and the Hakaishin being nervous regarding Kaioken Goku.

Beerus is still much stronger than both Goku and Vegeta in the anime and there hasn't been enough evidence to suggest they've caught up at all. If anything, it's implied more that Goku and Vegeta are closing in on Beerus in the manga even more considering that Kaioshin implies that SSJB Vegetto may be stronger than Beerus when he's fighting Merged Zamasu. And no such comment is made about the power SSJB Vegetto in that regard in the anime.

[ekrolo2]

Beerus is still much stronger than both Goku and Vegeta in the anime and there hasn't been enough evidence to suggest they've caught up at all. If anything, it's implied more that Goku and Vegeta are closing in on Beerus in the manga even more considering that Kaioshin implies that SSJB Vegetto may be stronger than Beerus when he's fighting Merged Zamasu. And no such comment is made about the power SSJB Vegetto in that regard in the anime.

The anime kind of screws one intent of Toriyama's with KK Blue being a thing: Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be roughly on par with one another but with KK, Vegeta's totally outclassed with something as low as Blue KKX2, never mind whatever new form/technique Goku has coming up.

In the manga, with Blue remaining the top tier thing, it's been able to keep this rule in-place while leaving room for future development whereas the anime is screwed unless Vegeta just gets a lot stronger just because or gets KK too.

[OLKv3]

Beerus is still really in a league of his own in the anime, too.

You are correct. As I was writing the post I kept remembering Angry Vegeta being 10% of Beerus and the Hakaishin being nervous regarding Kaioken Goku.

Beerus is still much stronger than both Goku and Vegeta in the anime and there hasn't been enough evidence to suggest they've caught up at all. If anything, it's implied more that Goku and Vegeta are closing in on Beerus in the manga even more considering that Kaioshin implies that SSJB Vegetto may be stronger than Beerus when he's fighting Merged Zamasu. And no such comment is made about the power SSJB Vegetto in that regard in the anime.

In the anime, Merged Zamasu was at "unfathomable" levels of strength and Vegetto matched him, so it's pretty much the same. Also, Vegetto being close to Beerus means absolutely nothing for Goku and Vegeta. You forget how wide the gap between Goku and Vegetto is. It's absolutely insane.
For what it's worth, Xenoverse 2's SSB Vegetto profile says the exact same line that's in the manga about Vegetto being Beerus tier, and that's based on the anime

[OLKv3]

Is this accurate?

[Lord Beerus]

The anime kind of screws one intent of Toriyama's with KK Blue being a thing: Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be roughly on par with one another but with KK, Vegeta's totally outclassed with something as low as Blue KKX2, never mind whatever new form/technique Goku has coming up.

In the manga, with Blue remaining the top tier thing, it's been able to keep this rule in-place while leaving room for future development whereas the anime is screwed unless Vegeta just gets a lot stronger just because or gets KK too.

I'm pretty sure in the Resurrection F arc/movie Whis states that Goku one step ahead of Vegeta. The gap in strength is certainly not sizable in the slightest, but it's very much present.

In the anime, Merged Zamasu was at "unfathomable" levels of strength and Vegetto matched him, so it's pretty much the same. Also, Vegetto being close to Beerus means absolutely nothing for Goku and Vegeta. You forget how wide the gap between Goku and Vegetto is. It's absolutely insane.
For what it's worth, Xenoverse 2's SSB Vegetto profile says the exact same line that's in the manga about Vegetto being Beerus tier, and that's based on the anime

Not exactly. There was no direct hypothetical correlation of Vegetto's strength to that of Beerus. We still have actually no idea of how strong Beerus is at full strength. Whis even states that in the Resurrection F arc/movie that is Goku and Vegeta were to team up they could challenge Beerus. SSJB Vegetto wouldn't be as strong as Kaioshin claims him to be if SSJB Goku and Vegeta individually weren't already very strong to begin with.

Is this accurate?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's.. so-so accurate. Here's how plays it in the Viz translation:

Chapter 15:
Beerus - "Being a God of Destruction is amazing. You rarely have to work and you can sleep for however long you want." "All you gotta do is destroy some unnecessary planets once in a while. It's easy."

Goku - "Forget it. I can't do something horrible like that."

Beerus - "Horrible?"

Chapter 25:
Goku - "Lord Beerus! I'm sorry I called your technique horrible. But I'll be using it now!!" "Destruction!!"

[Zamasu55]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

[Xeztin]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

Perhaps he did off screen?

[The gr]

I'm betting toyotaro is gonna make a gag Page in vol 4 similar to zamas swapped body with monaka with Beerus hakai something and Goku is watching and maybe he will say what a horrible move and he will include a page with the ritual and Goku thinking about mastering his ssb form,toyo planned this all along

[Noah]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

Perhaps he did off screen?

I don't know, I think I would buy it if Whis have taught Goku, I know it was never stated anywhere that Hakai is exclusive to the Gods Of Destruction, but Goku doing such a overpowered technique by just looking once is kinda lame.

[Miracles]

Alright, but, the movie was canon according to Toriyama. Toyataro manga is not the continuation of the manga.

Where did Toriyama state this?
Cause the manga definitely follows BOG and ROF movies.

The manga is not following the movies, it retold BoG, as the anime did, with substantial differences like fighting the whole battle in SSG and other minor ones like taking place in the cruise ship. RoF was skipped, but the same would apply, they are different continuities, different versions of the same main ideas.

The manga is following the manga, we have In-universe evidences like ignoring Gregory, an only anime character. It has been stated as a sequel to Toriyama's Dragon Ball, which was the manga. Also, they are the same medium and Toriyama corrects his work.

https://youtu.be/Ti89i2EZjWE

Toriyama didn't say this. The fandom always giving head cannon to suite their own desires.
It's really getting tiring.

[Namz]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

facepalm

[STH]

Where did Toriyama state this?
Cause the manga definitely follows BOG and ROF movies.

The manga is not following the movies, it retold BoG, as the anime did, with substantial differences like fighting the whole battle in SSG and other minor ones like taking place in the cruise ship. RoF was skipped, but the same would apply, they are different continuities, different versions of the same main ideas.

The manga is following the manga, we have In-universe evidences like ignoring Gregory, an only anime character. It has been stated as a sequel to Toriyama's Dragon Ball, which was the manga. Also, they are the same medium and Toriyama corrects his work.

https://youtu.be/Ti89i2EZjWE

Toriyama didn't say this. The fandom always giving head cannon to suite their own desires.
It's really getting tiring.

I agree

[Zamasu55]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

Perhaps he did off screen?

Yeah, of course.
Great job Toyotaro.

[TheMikado]

The manga is not following the movies, it retold BoG, as the anime did, with substantial differences like fighting the whole battle in SSG and other minor ones like taking place in the cruise ship. RoF was skipped, but the same would apply, they are different continuities, different versions of the same main ideas.

The manga is following the manga, we have In-universe evidences like ignoring Gregory, an only anime character. It has been stated as a sequel to Toriyama's Dragon Ball, which was the manga. Also, they are the same medium and Toriyama corrects his work.

https://youtu.be/Ti89i2EZjWE

Toriyama didn't say this. The fandom always giving head cannon to suite their own desires.
It's really getting tiring.

I agree

All this proves is that the manga is much closer to Toriyamas original manga in terms of substance.

[OLKv3]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

Perhaps he did off screen?

Yeah, of course.
Great job Toyotaro.

I mean, what? The picture and dialogue pretty much confirm Goku saw Beerus do the move a lot offscreen.

[Basako]

Nice.
It's just a shame Goku never saw Beerus do that in the manga.

Perhaps he did off screen?

Yeah, of course.
Great job Toyotaro.

Man, in most cases we didn't know anybody could use a technique until used it in combat. Toyotaro did as Toriyama always did.

Now we know Vegeta and Goku knew about it, they both reference it when Goku goes with it. It was totally fine, this is classic anti manga or Toyotaro attitude over nothing.

[TheMikado]

The anime kind of screws one intent of Toriyama's with KK Blue being a thing: Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be roughly on par with one another but with KK, Vegeta's totally outclassed with something as low as Blue KKX2, never mind whatever new form/technique Goku has coming up.

In the manga, with Blue remaining the top tier thing, it's been able to keep this rule in-place while leaving room for future development whereas the anime is screwed unless Vegeta just gets a lot stronger just because or gets KK too.

I'm pretty sure in the Resurrection F arc/movie Whis states that Goku one step ahead of Vegeta. The gap in strength is certainly not sizable in the slightest, but it's very much present.

In the anime, Merged Zamasu was at "unfathomable" levels of strength and Vegetto matched him, so it's pretty much the same. Also, Vegetto being close to Beerus means absolutely nothing for Goku and Vegeta. You forget how wide the gap between Goku and Vegetto is. It's absolutely insane.
For what it's worth, Xenoverse 2's SSB Vegetto profile says the exact same line that's in the manga about Vegetto being Beerus tier, and that's based on the anime

Not exactly. There was no direct hypothetical correlation of Vegetto's strength to that of Beerus. We still have actually no idea of how strong Beerus is at full strength. Whis even states that in the Resurrection F arc/movie that is Goku and Vegeta were to team up they could challenge Beerus. SSJB Vegetto wouldn't be as strong as Kaioshin claims him to be if SSJB Goku and Vegeta individually weren't already very strong to begin with.

"

The problem with the anime is that you have to try and rectify the 10% SSJ2 Vegeta with SSBxKKx10 with Base Goku vs Beerus. This results in all kinds of weird head canon from the fan base and that doesn't even cover power ambiguity from the universe 7 team, Trunks, or the fact that we think Goku is always holding back to ridiculous levels. The problem is the narrative as written now does not build on or take into account previous information in its own series or even the previous episode.

For context of the above, it would be like Raditz saying Gohan rage boosted to 10% of Freeza's full power at the beginning of Z but the story playing out the same. It wouldn't make any sense narratively and really show a lack of attention to detail and poor writing.

While Toriyama may not have used actual calculators he was very careful in making the power pyramid make sense even retroactively. Even if it did cause some power inflation the narrative still took into account ALL previous events.