Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[omaro34]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

[emperior]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

He obviously is, as he's stronger than SSJ2 Gohan who was on par with his post-Z Sword training self. So more powerful than Super Perfect Cell. Dabura was only on par (and maybe even weaker) with the Perfect Cell Goku remembered.

[Ki Breaker]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

What
Of course he is

[omaro34]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

What
Of course he is

I was hoping this would summon namekiansaiyan from his slumber

[Ki Breaker]

I'm inclined to believe that Piccolo is now stronger than Dabura was back in the Buu arc.

What
Of course he is

I was hoping this would summon namekiansaiyan from his slumber

If that's what you want head over to the official announcement thread and say something along the lines of
"piccolo is gonna get humiliated by a Saiyan, again!"
As of now 39.61℅ of his posts belong in that section..

Or you could just pm him

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say Piccolo is as strong as Slim Buu, whom was relatively even with base Goku. So, above SS3 Gotenks but below Ultimate Gohan.

[Ki Breaker]

I'd say Piccolo is as strong as Slim Buu, whom was relatively even with base Goku. So, above SS3 Gotenks but below Ultimate Gohan.

SS3 Gotenks has become a joke hasn't he..
Everyone and their mothers are getting stronger than him while he is sitting around twiddling his thumbs

[Bullza]

So it is possible then, that Goku was not 100% during his fight with #17? After all, why go Blue with Krillin? Not implying #17 is weak, he could have definitely become much stronger. But.... maybe not on equal terms with Goku Blue.

Well he definitely wasn't 100% because they said that Goku was holding back. Then again they did also say that Android 17 was holding back too.

Based off on another Tweet which said something about how Android 17 could be the third strongest but Gohan and Piccolo were still training, I'd wager a guess that Android 17 was above Good Buu and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

He obviously is, as he's stronger than SSJ2 Gohan who was on par with his post-Z Sword training self. So more powerful than Super Perfect Cell. Dabura was only on par (and maybe even weaker) with the Perfect Cell Goku remembered.

I'm not sure if that's particularly true now. I'd say Dabura was slightly above Super Perfect Cell.

It makes no sense for him to be only as strong as the Perfect Cell that Goku fought for a few reasons but one including the fact that in the Super manga the Super Saiyan Future Trunks who had mastered the Z Sword and who would have been stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu saga, was little match for Dabura.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku Black got stronger too after being beaten down by SSB Vegeta. How did he do so? He harnessed his rage at mortals. You know how else he got stronger? Goku inflicting pain on him. We've never seen anyone get stronger through simply being damaged, so it must not actually work then-- OH WAIT, IT DID.

Anger is a temporary power.

Black just used her to evolve his sword to a Scythe.
It was not a Zenkai.

Whenever Black increases his power, he is shown raising his Ki, with a quote from some character that he got stronger.

In that case, it was temporary. He did not increase his brute power.

So it is possible then, that Goku was not 100% during his fight with #17? After all, why go Blue with Krillin? Not implying #17 is weak, he could have definitely become much stronger. But.... maybe not on equal terms with Goku Blue.

Well he definitely wasn't 100% because they said that Goku was holding back. Then again they did also say that Android 17 was holding back too.

Based off on another Tweet which said something about how Android 17 could be the third strongest but Gohan and Piccolo were still training, I'd wager a guess that Android 17 was above Good Buu and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

He obviously is, as he's stronger than SSJ2 Gohan who was on par with his post-Z Sword training self. So more powerful than Super Perfect Cell. Dabura was only on par (and maybe even weaker) with the Perfect Cell Goku remembered.

I'm not sure if that's particularly true now. I'd say Dabura was slightly above Super Perfect Cell.

It makes no sense for him to be only as strong as the Perfect Cell that Goku fought for a few reasons but one including the fact that in the Super manga the Super Saiyan Future Trunks who had mastered the Z Sword and who would have been stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu saga, was little match for Dabura.

Even with Z-sword training, it did not appear that Trunks had major power ups.

The sword was a legend, so Shin and Kibito (even in the present) thought she would be able to defeat Majin Boo.
Trunks dominated the sword, but it was not enough to defeat Dabura.

Or else Trunks did not have enough power. Even though he was at the level of Goku SSJ (Saga Cell), he would still be inferior to Cell himself and Dabura

[emperior]

I was talking about Gohan... Recently it was shown in episode 88 that Piccolo is above Gohan. In the same episode Gohan brings back his "original power" so he was probably just as strong as he was when he trained with the Z Sword. This means Piccolo must be above Dabura.

[gofishus]

Said I'd never do this. Here's my first attempt at a power scale. Open to critique and debate. I think I can defend 90% of this pretty easily, but I'm curious to find out where people think I'm wrong. For the time being, I'm assuming a single base Goku, with Saiyan beyond god retconned after the Beerus arc. I'm also NOT taking into account any characters who have most likely improved, but who haven't had a showing to display such improvements (ex. Hit).

Purely Attack Potency (Anime only, not considering fighting style, technical arsenal, naivety, or tendencies to slow play):

SSB Vegito
Stable Merged Zamasu
SSB KKx10 Goku
Corrupt Merged Zamasu
SSB KK Goku (still loses to Black)
SSR Black
SSB Vegeta
True Golden Frieza
SSB Goku
Hit
Toppo
Base Black
17
Gohan
Future Trunks
SS3 Goku
SS2 Goku
Piccolo
Future Zamasu
Past Zamasu
SS Goku
Base Goku
Final Form Frieza
18
Krillin

Where is Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Jiren etc?

why is SSB Vegeta higher than SSB Goku?

Shouldn't Gohan be higher given that he unlocked his Ultimate form again?

Where is Tien, Roshi, Yamcha, Goten, Trunks?

Why is Base Black so high.. when he fought on par with SSJ2 Goku at the beginning? actually given that DB tends to throw stronger opponents later in the series, I dont see any evidence that Black would be higher than Toppo.. or even 17

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I was talking about Gohan... Recently it was shown in episode 88 that Piccolo is above Gohan. In the same episode Gohan brings back his "original power" so he was probably just as strong as he was when he trained with the Z Sword. This means Piccolo must be above Dabura.

Not necessarily. Without ignoring RoF, there are a few assumptions to make.

Gohan has been stated to be stronger than ever minus Ultimate, if I recall correctly, and he's been re-training his body accordingly. He can still have a base form stronger than Piccolo's original level if RoF is taken at face value and still be below his original Ultimate level, even factoring in SS2's 100x multiplier.

Piccolo and Slim Buu are definitely at the level of base Goku, Vegeta, and current base Gohan, but as Piccolo's fight with the recently reattained Ultimate Gohan showed, that level of power is still higher than this range, a range which is above SS3 Gotenks.

It really depends on how much stronger Ultimate Gohan was than SS3 Gotenks.

[Bullza]

Even with Z-sword training, it did not appear that Trunks had major power ups.

The sword was a legend, so Shin and Kibito (even in the present) thought she would be able to defeat Majin Boo.
Trunks dominated the sword, but it was not enough to defeat Dabura.

Or else Trunks did not have enough power. Even though he was at the level of Goku SSJ (Saga Cell), he would still be inferior to Cell himself and Dabura

Well Gohan mastered the Z Sword and his power was said to have gone up though Goku did say he wasn't sure if he could beat Buu but he still should have been stronger than Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta.

If Future Trunks also mastered the sword then he should be comparable to Gohan and he was weaker than Dabura.

Which actually does make sense because Goku did say Dabura was as strong as Cell.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Even with Z-sword training, it did not appear that Trunks had major power ups.

The sword was a legend, so Shin and Kibito (even in the present) thought she would be able to defeat Majin Boo.
Trunks dominated the sword, but it was not enough to defeat Dabura.

Or else Trunks did not have enough power. Even though he was at the level of Goku SSJ (Saga Cell), he would still be inferior to Cell himself and Dabura

Well Gohan mastered the Z Sword and his power was said to have gone up though Goku did say he wasn't sure if he could beat Buu but he still should have been stronger than Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta.

If Future Trunks also mastered the sword then he should be comparable to Gohan and he was weaker than Dabura.

Which actually does make sense because Goku did say Dabura was as strong as Cell.

Goku said that Gohan did not seem to be able to defeat Majin Boo.

Gohan also just said that his arms had grown stronger because the sword was heavy.
But he did not appear to have any significant gain in power, since nothing was quoted.

[LowRyder2005]

I'd say Piccolo is as strong as Slim Buu, whom was relatively even with base Goku. So, above SS3 Gotenks but below Ultimate Gohan.

SS3 Gotenks has become a joke hasn't he..
Everyone and their mothers are getting stronger than him while he is sitting around twiddling his thumbs

Well, Gotenks' only "misfortune" was having to fill in for the role of the proverbial punching bag during a time when the writers were following some notions inherited from the movies, which Toriyama himself soft-retconned when the Future Trunks arc started.

If he were to appear again, you'd most likely have people writing him as still equal to some Super Saiyan form of Goku, just like Gohan was.

Gohan has been stated to be stronger than ever minus Ultimate, if I recall correctly, and he's been re-training his body accordingly. He can still have a base form stronger than Piccolo's original level if RoF is taken at face value and still be below his original Ultimate level, even factoring in SS2's 100x multiplier.

That's not completely correct. The Gohan who fought Goku in ep. 95 was stated to finally be at his strongest yet in the relative promotional material; before that, however, you'll only statements that corroborate the idea that Gohan was meant to be well below his trained self, lastly seen in the Buu saga. In that regard, you have promo materials stating that thanks to Piccolo, Gohan was finally regaining his "lost strength".

At bare minimum, it therefore means that Super Saiyan 2 was inferior to the Ultimate Gohan from Z. However, even trying to keep that for the sake of a streamlined theory doesn't work: to contend with a base Goku who can casually dispose of SS3 Gotenks you'd literally have a Gohan who was at least about as strong as his Ultimate self in base (so hundreds [!], if not thousands [!] of times stronger than his Buu arc) already, with his Super Saiyan form being dozens of times stronger than that. Not mentioning, everyone talking about how disappointing, weak or in dire need to tap into his full power he was; which already wouldn't make sense at all, also given that no amount of training in Z could ever get anyone that strong and Gohan doesn't even routinely train.

Base Gohan outperforming Piccolo in ROF is realistically a plothole, or most certainly at least something that's not reflected anymore in the current material. You can't reconcile elements like a Gohan who stopped training while still "in the process of being retrained from scratch" being superior to a base Goku who was above his Z Super Saiyan 3 self, without huge leaps in logic. This basically addressess the Gotenks' issue as well, with the incredibly powerful base form capable of outperforming the Super Saiyans in the show being silently shoved aside by the writers after the Potafeau Arc.
Piccolo, while stronger than what Gohan remembered (we don't know exactly when, though; admitting Piccolo didn't pull any punches on Gohan we may substantiate that Piccolo as the Piccolo from the U6 Arc), would have also literally needed to get hundreds of times stronger in-between the Resurrection F Arc and the current one in order to manhandle Super Saiyan 1/2 Gohan if he was really inferior to Gohan's base. This looks basically borderline impossible, for various in-universe and out-of-universe reasons.

Gohan is really the best way to exemplify why things can't be reconciled with everything that happened with Gotenks and base Goku, and why characters have been softly rebooted to levels (somewhat) similar to their late Z selves. I say somewhat because I still have Goku around four times stronger than his late Buu saga.

[gofishus]

I'd say Piccolo is as strong as Slim Buu, whom was relatively even with base Goku. So, above SS3 Gotenks but below Ultimate Gohan.

SS3 Gotenks has become a joke hasn't he..
Everyone and their mothers are getting stronger than him while he is sitting around twiddling his thumbs

Gotenks' only "misfortune" of having to fill in for the role of the proverbial punching bag during a time when the writers were following some notions inherited from the movies, which Toriyama himself soft-retconned when the Future Trunks arc started.

If he were to appear again, you'd most likely have people writing him as still equal to some Super Saiyan form of Goku, just like Gohan was.

Dont forget that the writers can decide to increase power levels exponentially with very little reason - just like for Frieza, Trunks Master Roshi, Android 17, etc - if they feel like it. If they want Gotenks to be competitive, they can just write in some BS power boost and then he'll be SSB level.

[Marlowe89]

Piccolo and Slim Buu are definitely at the level of base Goku, Vegeta, and current base Gohan, but as Piccolo's fight with the recently reattained Ultimate Gohan showed, that level of power is still higher than this range, a range which is above SS3 Gotenks.

Except Piccolo was shown to be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and there was no indication that Gohan became so much stronger from his training with Piccolo that his base form went above his Super Saiyan 2 form during that match.

That short sparring match between Slim Buu and base Goku wasn't even remotely as serious as the most of the other matches have been during the recruitment period. It wasn't even a test of strength per se, but rather Buu's ability to knock Goku out of the ring.

[ekrolo2]

What's the verdict on who's stronger between Vegeta, Freeza and 17 now?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Piccolo and Slim Buu are definitely at the level of base Goku, Vegeta, and current base Gohan, but as Piccolo's fight with the recently reattained Ultimate Gohan showed, that level of power is still higher than this range, a range which is above SS3 Gotenks.

Except Piccolo was shown to be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and there was no indication that Gohan became so much stronger from his training with Piccolo that his base form went above his Super Saiyan 2 form.

That short sparring match between Slim Buu and base Goku wasn't even remotely as serious as the most of the other matches have been during the recruitment period.

I mostly place them into such ranges for simplicity's sake, and take into account RoF, as well as never obviously retconning characters downward except in the most extreme cases, like SS Goku not being as strong as SSG Goku, Freeza's power differences between forms not being massive anymore, etc.

That way, more streamlined power levels can be created that take out a lot of the guesswork.

[gofishus]

What's the verdict on who's stronger between Vegeta, Freeza and 17 now?

We don't know. None of those characters have shown their true power yet. Vegeta trained a lot since he fought Zamasu. Frieza is obviously more powerful than ROF. 17 says he's hiding his power. No way to tell until the tournament begins.