Gohan vs. Dabura

[Bussani]

Super Saiyan 1 isn't really a similar comparison with the later forms though, since it's the original, and a state the Saiyan had never been accustomed to beforehand. So understandably, they'd have more trouble controlling the transformation initially.

I think once the Saiyan has mastered SSJ1, the forms which succeed it wouldn't be as hard to control after they are unlocked. We've seen Vegeta and Gohan go from their base state straight to Super Saiyan 2 before and Goku even went from base to Super Saiyan 3 instantly.

It's true that Goku seemed to go SSJ3 with ease the later times, but the first time he uses it he says, "Sorry it took a while. I'm not used to it yet." Even though it didn't become a problem or plot-point later on, I think that's enough to show that the later forms do take practice as well.

Also, I don't think going straight from base to a higher form contradicts anything I said in my previous post.

By the way Gohan was acting at the tournament, it appeared like he was more worried about concealing his identity, rather than the actual transformation.

I don't think that makes a difference. Whatever the reason was, he was holding himself back.

So I believe he was already using the SSJ2 state and just needed more power, anger was always something that granted him that, even before he was able to transform into SSJ.

That's fair enough. I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me. I'm just offering up alternatives.

[Miracles]

Yet you ignore the fact Vegeta and Goku say how weak Gohan is fighting Dabura compared to when he fought Cell [manga], which means he was at full power. Confirming Daizenshuu's official statement about Gohan using Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

No, it doesn't. It just means he's weaker. It has nothing to do with which form he's using.

You're trying to warp around the meanings of vague statements to support a TYPO. One which flies in the face of what's shown plainly.

If your glorified, almighty Daizenshuu claimed that Goku used Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta, would you believe it? Would you defend it? Even though it's obviously wrong?

Well, we are gonna have to agree to disagree.

[Son_Gohan]

It's true that Goku seemed to go SSJ3 with ease the later times, but the first time he uses it he says, "Sorry it took a while. I'm not used to it yet." Even though it didn't become a problem or plot-point later on, I think that's enough to show that the later forms do take practice as well.

Also, I don't think going straight from base to a higher form contradicts anything I said in my previous post.

When Goku unlocked Super Saiyan, it was stated that it took him a while to actually transform at will, meaning he wasn't able to achieve/maintain the form at all. That is not the same in comparison to when he transforms into SSJ3, as he was still able to achieve the transformation, but just required a longer duration to do it.

Concerning Gohan, you're trying to say that he was in a similar predicament as when first attaining Super Saiyan; being unable to transform into the SSJ2 state at will. But based on his actions in the tournament, I can't say agree with you.

[Bussani]

When Goku unlocked Super Saiyan, it was stated that it took him a while to actually transform at will, meaning he wasn't able to achieve/maintain the form at all.

Except that he did achieve/maintain it twice on Namek.

Concerning Gohan, you're trying to say that he was in a similar predicament as when first attaining Super Saiyan; being unable to transform into the SSJ2 state at will. But based on his actions in the tournament, I can't say agree with you.

See above. But okay.

[Son_Gohan]

Except that he did achieve/maintain it twice on Namek.

That's true, and if he didn't say anything afterwards to Trunks about not being able to control it at first, I would've assumed that he could've.

But since he indicates that he couldn't have, I'll take his word for it.

[Bussani]

That's true, and if he didn't say anything afterwards to Trunks about not being able to control it at first, I would've assumed that he could've.

But since he indicates that he couldn't have, I'll take his word for it.

Well, what I was trying to say is that maybe being able to induce the transformation when conditions are right isn't the same as being able to control it 'at will'.

For example, I can only dance while drunk. So I wouldn't say I can dance at will...unless I'm drunk. I can dance at will if I'm drunk. If I could make myself drunk whenever I wanted, then I could dance at will all the time.

Uh...that make any sense?

[Jon Jon]

Can anyone provide panels from the manga of this situation happening? Panels with Gohan fighting Dabura and Gohan fighting at the tournament? I ask because I figure the manga is normally more accurate with representing transformations.

[Khalid Shahin]

I'm pretty sure everyone is going by the manga rather than the anime.

[Kaboom]

Can anyone provide panels from the manga of this situation happening? Panels with Gohan fighting Dabura and Gohan fighting at the tournament? I ask because I figure the manga is normally more accurate with representing transformations.

Sure thing. Here's Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2, and then Gohan against Dabra.

[Godo]

Oh, God, it can't be more clear than that. Seriously.
As a SSJ2 he has a longer bang, and spikier hair. It's also longer and more jagged. And then we have the aura!

It has got to be a GREAT mistake to draw him like that as a SSJ2 (referring to the Dabura fight).

[Rocketman]

It has got to be a GREAT mistake to draw him like that as a SSJ2 (referring to the Dabura fight).

And then to draw him like that versus Buu, while Goku and Majin Vegeta constantly have sparks during their fight that's going on at the same time.

[Son_Gohan]

Well, what I was trying to say is that maybe being able to induce the transformation when conditions are right isn't the same as being able to control it 'at will'.

For example, I can only dance while drunk. So I wouldn't say I can dance at will...unless I'm drunk. I can dance at will if I'm drunk. If I could make myself drunk whenever I wanted, then I could dance at will all the time.

Uh...that make any sense?

It makes sense, and I agree.

When Goku fought Frieza in Namek, his state of mind was already encompassed by outbursts of rage, which made his 2nd SSJ transformation seemingly come natural to him. But if we look at Gohan's first Super Saiyan transformation, he was only able to maintain the form for a few seconds, which supports the statement Goku had made previously.

Even if we look at Gohan's SSJ2 transformation at the tournament, he was definitely not overwhelmed by emotions and the transformation barely required any effort on his part. Compare that to when he's facing Buu's egg, where he's evidently trying his best and the magnitude was far greater, if his ability to acheive the transformation was connected to his state of mind, than it surely would've made sense for him to do it then, not back at the tournament for the petty reason of showing off.

[Dayspring]

For an in-story answer as to why Gohan 'for some reason can't' get angry enough, maybe his lack of training over made it impossible to use SSJ2 multiple times in a short period?

In other words, Gohan went SSJ2 at will in front of Kibito, so he doesn't have enough emotional energy to rebecome SSJ2 an hour or so later. Since emotions aren't wounds or physical energy, Kibito's healing wouldn't give Gohan this ability back. Like when you're really frustrated for a while, you get drained emotionally, but not physically.

Cell Games Gohan:
-Just spent about a year doing basic training; primary focus was on controlling rage so as to help master SSJ.
-Was angry at self for letting Cell kill his dad
-Was angry at Cell for killing his dad
Result: Gohan rebecame SSJ2

VS Dabura:
-Hasn't trained his anger intensely for about 7 years
-Has knowledge that nobody's in too much danger, as Goku and Vegeta can easily kill Dabura if he fails, and since Dabura's death means everybody's safe.
-Already went SSJ2 earlier.
Result: 'But I can't get as angry for some reason!'

[Son_Gohan]

Gohan never made it a point to train his anger, and what was required to release his dormant powers was always beyond his control.

[LilKokuLink]

Maybe it's possible that Kibito didn't restore his energy enough for him to reach SSJ2? Or maybe Gohan was looking for a long dragged out fight like "I'm not even at my full power yet", obviously that didn't work because Dabura retreated and we got Majin Vegeta instead .

[Jon Jon]

Thanks Kaboom, I think that's proof enough.

Also, didn't he not have all of his energy restored by Kibito after having his energy drained? I figure that would be to blame. He just wasn't at full power.

[Godo]

Gohan never made it a point to train his anger, and what was required to release his dormant powers was always beyond his control.

He did in the ROSAT. That's how he became a Super Saiya-jin. And once he stopped being afraid of losing control, he became a SSJ2 (his power was increasing all the time until Android 16 died).
So I think that he was trained well at that time.

[Bussani]

Also, didn't he not have all of his energy restored by Kibito after having his energy drained? I figure that would be to blame. He just wasn't at full power.

We don't know, to be honest. Kibito says something like, "he still isn't back to full strength?" as he's healing him. At first I thought this might mean that he couldn't restore all of Gohan's ki, but there's no indication that he stopped at that point, so he might have just been saying, "man, it takes a long time to fully restore this guy's ki." The fact that he says, "Phew, that should do," a few panels later makes me think it's the latter.

Gohan also eats a senzu before going to face Buu, so it wouldn't explain why he didn't use SSJ2 there.

[Son_Gohan]

He did in the ROSAT. That's how he became a Super Saiya-jin. And once he stopped being afraid of losing control, he became a SSJ2 (his power was increasing all the time until Android 16 died).
So I think that he was trained well at that time.

His main focus was achieving Super Saiyan, anger was only supplementary to that.

If he had trained to utilize his anger, he wouldn't have had so much trouble bringing it out when his dad and friends were assaulted by the Cell Jrs, as it was not something he was accustomed to.

We don't know, to be honest. Kibito says something like, "he still isn't back to full strength?" as he's healing him. At first I thought this might mean that he couldn't restore all of Gohan's ki, but there's no indication that he stopped at that point, so he might have just been saying, "man, it takes a long time to fully restore this guy's ki." The fact that he says, "Phew, that should do," a few panels later makes me think it's the latter.

I used to think that too.

But after looking at the manga again, when Kibito used his healing in the later times, it was always instant.

[Godo]

He did in the ROSAT. That's how he became a Super Saiya-jin. And once he stopped being afraid of losing control, he became a SSJ2 (his power was increasing all the time until Android 16 died).
So I think that he was trained well at that time.

His main focus was achieving Super Saiyan, anger was only supplementary to that.

If he had trained to utilize his anger, he wouldn't have had so much trouble bringing it out when his dad and friends were assaulted by the Cell Jrs, as it was not something he was accustomed to.

When you have enough amount of power, anger is the primary factor to reach SSJ. If you can't control it you can't reach SSJ.

Second of all, his problems with reaching SSJ2 was mainly because of that it normally only requires training.
With Gohan's power bursts, he could only reach that point with anger, but he held back and tried not to let loose of all his anger.
Android 16: "Gohan, let go of your fear and let loose all your anger, for Earth and the animals I love". Well, I think he said that to an extent.
Gohan was afraid of bringing too much destruction and death. That was all it was to it.