Who is Stronger Questions

[Xyex]

You're missing the point. Gohan give his ki to Genki Dama. If he was stronger than Kid Buu his ki alone would be enough to destroy him. Period!

No, you're the one missing the point. Let's take a look at a quick power scale to explain.

Kid Buu - 5,000
Ultimate Gohan - 12,000
Gohan's contributed Genki to the SB - 500
End result = Gohan's contributed energy alone is less than Kid Buu's full power.

Take a look at Gohan after he gives his energy. He's not even winded. In fact, he still has the power to zip off all around the planet without the slightest bit of tiredness. Thusly it is evident Gohan did not contribute his full power to the Spirit Bomb.

That is all filler...

1) So are all claims of Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu.
2) Gohan's not winded or tired in the manga, either.

[jjgp1112]

But all evidence shows that he only contributed a portion of his energy to the Spirit Bomb. If he contributed all of his energy he would've been substantially exhausted, and certainly wouldn't have enough energy to fly around the entire planet to convince other people to give their energy.

That is all filler...

Okay, in that case, did Gohan appear exhausted in the manga? And not only that, but Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu is also filler. Yet you still believe that.

[jackjack]

No! Are you suggesting Piccolo or Goku weren't fighting Raditz at full-power?

Makankosappo > Raditz >>> Piccolo/Goku at full power

Kamehameha >>> Kid Boo = SSJ3 Goku at full power

Goku still can't be equal to Boo, why?

Kid Buu - 5,000
Ultimate Gohan - 12,000
Gohan's contributed Genki to the SB - 500
End result = Gohan's contributed energy alone is less than Kid Buu's full power.

Not to mention you need a power that's much much higher than Boo's PL to overcome his regeneration. Say 15,000 is needed to completely wipe him out, even if Gohan donated everything he got, it still wouldn't be powerful enough. Besides, it's called Genki Dama, not Ki Dama.

I really want to go back to the scene where Buff Buu becomes Kid Buu since I have a few things to add.
Again, Vegeta states: Look at our little friend.
Goku: Yeah, we can take him.

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)

It really isn't because you know what? It doesn't matter since they still fought evenly.

- It's stated that Goku couldn't match Super Boo's strength. (Super Boo > SSJ3 Goku)
- It's shown that Goku could match Kid Boo's strength in a fight. (Kid Boo = SSJ3 Goku)

See? Super>Kid is supported by stated and shown canon facts, meaning undeniable, regardless of your own feelings.

[Dayspring]

I know I asked this earlier, but we got side-tracked by the main discussion (...or would the be "straight-tracked?"):

Goku may or may not have been lying to Piccolo about not being able to defeat Fat Boo. But where is the proof that Fat Boo is weaker than Kid Boo? Are they evenly matched? Is Fat Boo just negligeably stronger?

Also, do we know if Piccolo Boo is stronger or weaker than Buff Boo?

[caejones]

When Goku is suggesting bringing Gohan and Gotenks, in Japanese he uses the word "Ya", meaning something like "and/or" rather than "and", and doesn't imply that they were the only options. To be uber-technical, he could have been open to bringing Piccolo or ChiChi, although contextually it's apparent he's thinking of someone--not necessarily multiple someones--on the SSJ3 tier.

Just because, you know, the last time this came up, the "Kid Buu is stronger" side absolutely refused to understand this nuance when several people brought it up.

And... we all know the "This one's the strongest!" line was anime only, right? And that if we're going by that there's no point in bringing up the argument in the first place, right?

[edit]
Oh!
So Questrider's point about it being ambiguous as to whether Vegeta and Goku are talking about Buu's size / his ki...
I don't know how that whole sequence goes in Japanese, but the way it's been handled in English makes me wonder if the subject is restated for the "look at our little friend" line.
But yeah, I have no idea, but there's a chance that might be less ambiguous in Japanese, for what it's worth.
[/edit]

[rereboy]

I know I asked this earlier, but we got side-tracked by the main discussion (...or would the be "straight-tracked?"):

Goku may or may not have been lying to Piccolo about not being able to defeat Fat Boo. But where is the proof that Fat Boo is weaker than Kid Boo? Are they evenly matched? Is Fat Boo just negligeably stronger?

Also, do we know if Piccolo Boo is stronger or weaker than Buff Boo?

SSJ3 Goku seemed to be doing better against Fat Buu then against Kid Buu. Since this is the only thing we have to go on, I will say that Kid Buu was somewhat stronger. Dai Kaioshin really weakened him.

As for Buff Buu and Piccolo Buu there really is no way we can successfully compare them. The absorptions count as additions but Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu to begin with and South Kaioshin was probably stronger than Piccolo (who was comparable to East Kaioshin) so who knows exactly how strong they ended up?

[Zephyr]

SSJ3 Goku seemed to be doing better against Fat Buu then against Kid Buu. Since this is the only thing we have to go on, I will say that Kid Buu was somewhat stronger. Dai Kaioshin really weakened him.

You also have to think about the state Goku was in when he fought both of them. When he fought Fat Buu, yes he did better than he did against Kid Buu, but he was also still dead when he fought Fat Buu, with no (living) body to hold him back.

[Senzu_Bean]

Everybody contributed with all of their ki to the Genki Dama. That was Vegeta's plan. Nobody get winded in the manga. Claiming Gohan didn't give his full power cause he wasn't winded when nobody is winded is laughable at least.

Just because, you know, the last time this came up, the "Kid Buu is stronger" side absolutely refused to understand this nuance when several people brought it up.

What is there to understand? You only solidified my point even more. And the sad is you don't even notice.

[Savage68]

Everybody contributed with all of their ki to the Genki Dama.

Then they would've died.

And if the plan really included donating as much ki as possible, the kids would've merged into Gotenks, and everyone would've powered-up to their limits before giving away their power. Genki's attributes obviously don't entail the same attributes as ki. The distinction was made for that specific reason.

[Godo]

Everybody contributed with all of their ki to the Genki Dama. That was Vegeta's plan. Nobody get winded in the manga. Claiming Gohan didn't give his full power cause he wasn't winded when nobody is winded is laughable at least.

But...we see many people get winded. I don't see why you find other people's points laughable when you are completely wrong about something.
We see normal humans that give their energy and are on their knees, panting. For some excellent proof, check in the manga for the two first guys that reach their arms up in their air, and read their comments.
Normal humans can't control their ki, so most of their ki was given to the Genki Dama.
Gohan and his gang, on the other hand, knew how to do that, so they didn't give all their power away.
Which is logical, since they have had to think about a scenario where the Genki Dama didn't work, and Kid Buu returned to Earth.

Your theories have many flaws, unfortunately, and your attitude is much worse. It's not a war, it's a debate. And you are making this debate ugly.
Just this post proves that your own knowledge isn't as vast as you think it is, and for me as a person, it doesn't make me believe you more.
In fact, it makes me believe that your conception of Kid Buu's power is due to lack of knowledge instead. And your attitude points at you losing the debate. Not because of that you know, but because of that you can't prove your points, and that irritates you.

The Daizex community consists of some of the most tolerant members I have seen on a Dragonball forum, and they are not as closed minded as you may believe.
I have seen lots of formidable presentations of why your theory is wrong, but it's hard to convince you when you claim your point as fact and as the only true one.

This thread is one of the reasons why I despise "which Buu is the strongest?" threads. Hell, in MFG they had one that spanned over 100 pages. That's sick.

[Senzu_Bean]

Then they would've died.

Assumption. And you don't have to see Piccolo or Gohan screaming like maniacs to know they have powered-up. They can manipulate their battle power easily.

But...we see many people get winded.

Are you trying be funny or a troll? That is filler! In the manga nobody get winded. Period!

[Savage68]

Assumption. And you don't have to see Piccolo or Gohan screaming like maniacs to know they have powered-up. They can manipulate their battle power easily.

O~kaaay...

But we still know that characters don't invisibly power-up (Mystic Gohan actually took time out to power-up, twice), and we still know that SSJ3 Gotenks' ki donation would provide an amount of power substantially higher than that of Goten and Trunks', individually. And yeah, if a character has every bit of their ki siphoned form them, they're dead. All fully organic beings all possess ki. And likewise - without ki, they would die. You know how characters mention that another's 'ki is gone' and associate that with being dead? Yep.

[Senzu_Bean]

But we still know that characters don't invisibly power-up...

Goku did. And Genki isn't exactly like Ki.

[Savage68]

And Genki isn't exactly like Ki.

Yes; This has been my point all along.

*prepares for the next single-sentence response*

[Senzu_Bean]

And Genki isn't exactly like Ki.

Yes; This has been my point all along.

*prepares for the next single-sentence response*

Genki is a form of ki. There isn't any reason why it should be less significant in a body when it means energy.

[Rocketman]

Are you trying be funny or a troll? That is filler! In the manga nobody get winded. Period!

First three panels, page 174 of Viz's DBZ volume 26. Guy raises his hands, the Spirit Bomb takes his energy, and he bends over and gasps for breath.

[Senzu_Bean]

Are you trying be funny or a troll? That is filler! In the manga nobody get winded. Period!

First three panels, page 174 of Viz's DBZ volume 26. Guy raises his hands, the Spirit Bomb takes his energy, and he bends over and gasps for breath.

Post the damn page for once!

[Savage68]

Are you trying be funny or a troll? That is filler! In the manga nobody get winded. Period!

First three panels, page 174 of Viz's DBZ volume 26. Guy raises his hands, the Spirit Bomb takes his energy, and he bends over and gasps for breath.

Post the damn page for once!

Here ya go.

[Senzu_Bean]

Thanks! Although I only see there someone who never experienced this kind of thing get alarmed because his "energy" got sucked. They are definitely not winded.

[Xyex]

Also, do we know if Piccolo Boo is stronger or weaker than Buff Boo?

Well, with the information we're given, we know that Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin and Kaioshin is weaker than the South Kaioshin, so going by my previously listed power scaling Piccolo Buu would have to be weaker than Buff Buu.

Everybody contributed with all of their ki to the Genki Dama. That was Vegeta's plan.

Actually, it wasn't. His plan was for the humans to give up as much as they could. Not all. Later he suggested taking more, even though it would kill them, but that wasn't his initial plan.

What is there to understand? You only solidified my point even more. And the sad is you don't even notice.

Obviously you don't understand what he said, because what he said is direct evidence against you. That line basically means Goku was absolutely sure (and so was Vegeta, as he didn't refute the notion) that either SSJ3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan, by themselves, would be enough to defeat Kid Buu. In Gohan's case this isn't an overly telling thing, but the inclusion of SSJ3 Gotenks proves, indisputably, that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu.

Why and how? Simple. SSJ3 Gotenks was, at best, even with Super Buu. Much as Goku was with Kid Buu (which in and of itself makes Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu impossible, but I digress) thus if Kid Buu were stronger than Super Buu SSJ3 Gotenks would be ineffective against him. If, however, Kid Buu were weaker than Super Buu, SSJ3 Gotenks would be quite effective against him, and able to dispose of him relatively easily (assuming, of course, he didn't fuck around again).

Genki is a form of ki. There isn't any reason why it should be less significant in a body when it means energy.

Genki is not a form of ki, it is a type of energy. A different type of energy than ki. In fact, a person's ki level wouldn't even have to be linked to their genki level. Thus allowing Gohan to be 5x stronger than Kid Buu in terms of ki but still not have enough genki that only his is enough to destroy Kid Buu.

Thanks! Although I only see there someone who never experienced this kind of thing get alarmed because his "energy" got sucked. They are definitely not winded.

Prove it.

I can show otherwise. What the man says in Viz translation:
"Huf huf"
"Gasp! Pant! He...he actually took my energy...!"

Sounds pretty winded to me.

Also, let's not forget what the Spirit Bomb is. It's an attack that takes energy from everything. It's not the "Gohan gives Goku his energy so he can beat the bad guy" attack. It's the "Everything donates some power so we can beat the bad guy" attack. Gohan could have been a trillion times more powerful than SSJ Vegetto and he alone wouldn't have been the only one to donate energy because that would be retarded.