Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[cyberlord34]

FindKenshi, you really aren't an admin here; and this is like the third time I've seen you tell someone what to do. Let them go about their business and let the admins handle it.

[Perfect]

Perfect, lash, the two of you need to start back from square one, I think, and ignore everything you've posted thus far. I can mediate between the two of you, if you want to do this, just let me know. However, since I've already stated my personal stance on the subject being debated, then maybe I'm not the best for the job. In which case, I would invite a member of the Clean Up Crew to directly observe and mediate.

I'd only agree to such terms if he did. Which I doubt he will, seeing that he's probably posting a reply to my reply. Depending on what that reply says entirely influences what I post in reply to that.

[cyberlord34]

You're both stubborn and really off topic with subjective arguments, so I doubt that either of you will any time soon.

[Perfect]

I wouldn't say I'm stubborn so much as I am invested in my point. I agree though that both arguments are subjective.

[cyberlord34]

Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp.

Both of you are demonstrating that. Really, why can't you both just come to an agreement? I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to help. I mean I can see you guys are going at it like cats and dogs, but it doesn't have to be that way you know.

[Perfect]

Well it's not so easy when you don't agree with the aforementioned person. I have no vendetta against lash, by any means. I don't know him well enough for anything like that, nor do I hold grudges against people I don't know (psychopaths of history omitted). On each argument I've had with him, only three I think we've come to agree on:

-Cell's initial state was not his max.

-One liners won't get us far.

-Arguing about things like the Super Kaio-ken won't get us anywhere.

I think eventually we'll get somewhere, regardless, I don't have any idea on when that'll be.

[lash]

@ Perfect

It's already stated it was upgraded once, being able to protect against light attacks. No reason why it can't happen again considering Kaio gave Goku several gis at one point. It doesn't really matter either way. the amount of power Vegeta used is subjective, and the Ki attack didn't erupt on Goku. It's comparable to a person getting hit by a vehicle as I stated. Which essentially makes this part pretty moot. There are still several examples still standing that suggest Ki does not protect the user's clothes as you seem to be suggesting.

You're forgetting that Freeza can't suppress his power without transforming. Attacks from that 3 million Goku were stated not to hurt Freeza at such a whatever low percentage of power he was at.

Not getting what you mean by "reactions delayed".

Because the examples I listed in the manga are also stated in the same form in the anime. The logic changes from manga to anime due to the addition of new scenes and filler. The logic from anime to anime(Dragonball to Dragonball Z) wouldn't. Either way, I don't see what exactly you're trying to get at. We're discussing the anime. If you bring a line from the manga, and we compare and see it's different in the anime, the anime wins in this case, obviously.

I. Don't see how this matters, Gohan had been training before the tournament. Vegeta only complained about Gohan's battle power. There's no grounds for Gohan fighting like a novice. If he took a critical melee attack he'd be bleeding or injured.
III. There's nothing to elaborate. You just reiterated the point. Babidi complains about Dabra not inflicting enough damage. Gohan's uniform is not torn at all even at the start of the on screen fight. These points co-support one another. You saying what you said, just helps support why both of those points are the way they are.

I. How does it seem "possible", even if a little? That's the point I'm asking you to explain. From my point of view I don't see any valid reason or evidence to believe he was taking continuous damage.
II. Exactly my point. The same could be said for Cell too then. A theory is not required to explain it.
III. That's attempting to use the scenario itself as evidence for an unnecessary theory. Anyone could use the same theory for the Ginyu Force and say they had SSJ like power but got caught off guard by how much stronger Goku had become, and ended up taking heavy damage. Because of this, they wouldn't be able to access all their reserves at once, but would slowly be able to utilize the reserve power(which is why a moment later they appeared conscious, like Cell). One could say that if they recovered all their power when given enough time, including the relaxed energy that was taken out and defeat by Goku, that they could be greater than Goku. In other words: Ginyu Force all out > Goku > Ginyu Force relaxed/when taken off guard. Don't you agree, that seems pretty farfetched and silly? Since we agree the Ginyu force probably recovered after some time, the same should apply for Cell. Making the theory unneeded to explain when he was conscious after some time.

The power of SSJ Goku is quite irrelevant, there's no need to argue about that.
So before I continue, do you really believe Pre Genki Dama 50% Freeza is > 100% Freeza and *possibly* SSJ Goku?

That's not an actual reason. I could just say due to time his battle power recovered to 1 or so, just as you think about the Ginyu Force. I'm curious about these other "reasons" that you said you're already given though.

Why should I have to list examples of something everyone does? I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but from reading your posts,

Examples of me doing what you're accusing me doing.

you come off as a forgiener almost that has troubles with English.

Irony doesn't get much better than this.

I'm curious where these Savage alts came from though. Probably gamefaq.

[paperbowser]

(Why is it so difficult for all of these versus topics to continue onward for even a couple pages? I asked you all to prove why they're worthwhile, and you've done the exact opposite.)

Because they're going about it the wrong way. There has to be a mediator between the two of them, a 3rd party neutral to either side of the debate. Also, it's important that they list references either from the source material, or the supplemental material, to back up each and every piece of evidence.

Anything without a source behind it, is subject to omission.

Furthermore, and I'm by no means trying to offend, but it would appear as though one or more members of this debate, is emotinoally invested in the subject. Just read the first page of this thread alone, and you will see the frustration boiling to the surface.

Really, I think "Versus debates" are the absolute cornerstone of Dragon Ball fandom, but if done the wrong way, yeah then it will lead to responding to each and every line of your opponents post, really just a war to undermine the opponent eventuall, rather than actually talking about the subject material.

Perfect, lash, the two of you need to start back from square one, I think, and ignore everything you've posted thus far. I can mediate between the two of you, if you want to do this, just let me know. However, since I've already stated my personal stance on the subject being debated, then maybe I'm not the best for the job. In which case, I would invite a member of the Clean Up Crew to directly observe and mediate.

There's no need to "meditate" upon anything, nor disregard everything presented. It's foolish to drop every bit of information just because of a discrepancy. I believe the real problem with this situation is ignorance due to the siding of one end of the argument.

[cyberlord34]

It is pretty easy, just agree to disagree or just agree that both arguments are possible. If what you're saying is true that you've both agreed on a point or two, then it shouldn't be hard to agree on that. Besides, how would Goku even get as strong as Cell? There's no source evidence, or even supplementary that supports that. Here's a better argument, why argue over filler? Why can't we just agree that filler makes it clear that neither is stronger?

[FindKenshi]

/removed

[paperbowser]

cyberlord34, and paperbrowser: go back to Dance and Stomp. We haven't any need for your antics at a prestigious board like this one.

It's a problem when I'm being relevant to the discussion at hand, and you're going off-topic. How respectable of you; certainly when you're implying my postings aren't worthy enough for this "prestigious board".

[MarcFBR]

I'm not even gonna go back and read the whole thread.

I'll just be very clear.

If what you guys are doing doesn't stop, I will outright ban you.

This is not an acceptable way to act.

[cyberlord34]

Ban me for what? I've been polite after being warned.

[Perfect]

Clothes:

Yeah, once early on in the series. Nothing ever implies or states it ever again. By your logic, I have the same amount of ground here as you do. I've counteracted everything you've said here about clothes (I'm honestly wondering if you're just trying to argue for the sake of arguing), there's no standing examples left. You're just being stubborn.

Freeza:
Yes, that's true, but that only matters if we're to say that Freeza was suppressing his power (which he does later on anyway, when he goes from 100% to something like 50%).

Goku:
I suppose I just worded it wrong. Goku's senses would have reacted faster if he was either aware it was coming beforehand or if he was SSJ.

Because the examples I listed in the manga are also stated in the same form in the anime. The logic changes from manga to anime due to the addition of new scenes and filler. The logic from anime to anime(Dragonball to Dragonball Z) wouldn't. Either way, I don't see what exactly you're trying to get at. We're discussing the anime. If you bring a line from the manga, and we compare and see it's different in the anime, the anime wins in this case, obviously.

That depends entirely on how you translate it. And the logic from the DB filler wouldn't change because there's filler in Z? That's an interpretation if you ask me, which you were going on about not using quite some time back.

Gohan:
I. A huh? 7 years of slacking is made up by one month of mediocre training? I think not. Who's to say he didn't just wipe the blood away? Which is about as possible as your SSJ2 theory here.

III. I'm still not seeing what you're meaning here, so what that his uniform doesn't get torn? I'm sure any good writer could come up with explanations around it. If anything it hurts your theory seeing that Dabra would not just magically be even with Gohan while he's at SSJ and SSJ2. One of their clothes would be tattered either way.

Cell:

I. Because an attack like that could easily cause continuous damage? An attack that would take someone like Cell down, even suppressed can logically cause continuous damage.

II. That's the thing, "could", meaning it's subjective. You just proved yourself wrong here. .-.

III. Discussion of any of this is "unnecessary" just as much as you say analyzing the scenario is, aka it's subjective as to whether or not it is. Now I'ma fraid that theory doesn't work seeing that Ginyu's were never stated to have that power, which Cell was. One could say the Ginyu's recovered a good portion of their power by then, but didn't want to get maimed, it'd be completely acceptable. If Cell recovered in that amount of time, that only furthers the point that your notion of Pikkon overpowering his post-zenkai reserves is subjective.

Freeza 2:
No, the power of SSJ Goku isn't irrelevant. It goes hand in hand with Freeza's, it's a perfect example of what I've stated, logically neither character could be at 120 - 150 million due to their injuries, so even without the negative material implemented, it still wouldn't make a difference.

That's about as possible was what what I've stated, or you for that matter. That I've already given? Could you rephrase that? I don't understand.

[lash]

I think eventually we'll get somewhere, regardless, I don't have any idea on when that'll be.

I'm not really focused on whatever I was saying several posts ago, that you think is a subjective or my own set of theories or whatever.
All I've been doing as of late is just directly questioning the credibility of your claims.

I. I understand your theory. And like I said, "sure, it may be possible".
II. I can't see the probably of your theory being high at all. By "your theory" I don't mean I mean all the negative damage stuff. I mean the fact of you saying "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack."
III. The reason I can't see "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack" begin very likely is because up till this post there hasn't been a single non subjective evidence supporting such a claim.
IV. The type of 'evidence' you've constantly been giving support that claim have all been, as you put it, subjective. Negative damage, and Cell having energy in reserve, etc...all subjective. I'm interested in stated lines and official material to help prove the statement "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack".

Basically the only way I see our argument progressing is if you:

A) Finally providing non subjective evidence that supports this exact phase "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack."
B) Admitting that the claim "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack" has no true factual supporting evidence. that even if it is "possible" the likelihood is next to none, due to no factual non subjective support for it.

[cyberlord34]

I'd like to think I know more about DBZ than most people, so let me try and resolve this:

For clothes, it makes sense that clothes would be relevant towards ones release of ki, otherwise all their clothes would be vaporized instantly later on.

I'm not gonna bother the Freeza or Goku arguments, they have no reason to be here in the first place.

Gohan was SSJ while he was fighting Dabura, so you're both wrong.

Pikkon's attack being greater than Cell as a whole is based on interpretation, so why argue on it?

I recall reading a thread that settled if Goku was at 150,000,000, it's probably still on page one here.

[Perfect]

I think eventually we'll get somewhere, regardless, I don't have any idea on when that'll be.

I'm not really focused on whatever I was saying several posts ago, that you think is a subjective or my own set of theories or whatever.
All I've been doing as of late is just directly questioning the credibility of your claims.

I. I understand your theory. And like I said, "sure, it may be possible".
II. I can't see the probably of your theory being high at all. By "your theory" I don't mean I mean all the negative damage stuff. I mean the fact of you saying "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack."
III. The reason I can't see "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack" begin very likely is because up till this post there hasn't been a single non subjective evidence supporting such a claim.
IV. The type of 'evidence' you've constantly been giving support that claim have all been, as you put it, subjective. Negative damage, and Cell having energy in reserve, etc...all subjective. I'm interested in stated lines and official material to help prove the statement "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack".

Basically the only way I see our argument progressing is if you:

A) Finally providing non subjective evidence that supports this exact phase "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack."
B) Admitting that the claim "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack" has no true factual supporting evidence. that even if it is "possible" the likelihood is next to none, due to no factual non subjective support for it.

I've stated several times it is subjective, and makes perfect sense based on the numerical mechanics I provided beforehand. From the first point onward I was addressing it in the same mannerism you were, a subjective nature. Pikkon's attack > Cell's maximum is no more subjective than Cell's maximum > Pikkon's attack.

[cyberlord34]

I think eventually we'll get somewhere, regardless, I don't have any idea on when that'll be.

I'm not really focused on whatever I was saying several posts ago, that you think is a subjective or my own set of theories or whatever.
All I've been doing as of late is just directly questioning the credibility of your claims.

I. I understand your theory. And like I said, "sure, it may be possible".
II. I can't see the probably of your theory being high at all. By "your theory" I don't mean I mean all the negative damage stuff. I mean the fact of you saying "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack."
III. The reason I can't see "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack" begin very likely is because up till this post there hasn't been a single non subjective evidence supporting such a claim.
IV. The type of 'evidence' you've constantly been giving support that claim have all been, as you put it, subjective. Negative damage, and Cell having energy in reserve, etc...all subjective. I'm interested in stated lines and official material to help prove the statement "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack".

Basically the only way I see our argument progressing is if you:

A) Finally providing non subjective evidence that supports this exact phase "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack."
B) Admitting that the claim "Cell's maximum power being > Paikuhan's attack" has no true factual supporting evidence. that even if it is "possible" the likelihood is next to none, due to no factual non subjective support for it.

Both of your claims have no true factual supporting evidence. It's all based on interpretation. Just because something is subjective does not make that idea "next to wrong", in fact that claim is subjective. >_>

[paperbowser]

I agree with cyberlord34, both claims are subjective. So, neither Cell's maximum power or Pikkon's attack can be proven to be greater without a subjective context

[cyberlord34]

Thank you bowser. I'm glad you feel that way, so can we move onto another related matter for this thread? Such as, how Goku would get illogically stronger in an extremely short amount of time, for you plot hole theorists? Because we all know he didn't, get very much, if not at all stronger.