How powerful did Yamcha, Ten, Chaozu, and Krillin get?

[shonenhikada]

^Seconded

Once i know my point comes across, and is understood that is all i am after. Sorry not trying to be mocking to the member just stating why the argument fails.

Wha?
You haven't made a point other then to make jokes about mine.

It's not fan speculation, and even if it was, its common sense that an instantaneous increase of multiple times would put someone's level higher then someone of the same level who would increase through training. Training takes time. Not only that, but the dead Senshi most likely wouldn't do any real training until they got to Kaiosama's planet, which was less time then Goku, but the fact is that it still took time.

And by "The End of the Freeza Saga," I'm simply talking about the point in time when Krillin died. There's no way humans can increase multitudes in power in only a week, which is probably how long they were on Kaiosama's planet at that point in time.

People who often debate high human power levels don't seem to realize that anything near Super Saiyan power (even a weak Super Saiyan) is extremely rare and practically unheard of. This is true at the beginning of the series as well as the end.

Your entire argument fails for the following reason. COMMON SENSE<<< PLOT INDUCED POWER UPS.

And your entire argument fails because your posts don't contribute anything to the discussion.
Try debating my points, maybe you might get somewhere.

Your entire argument is based on the sole notion that dragon ball follows some logically sequence and that power ups aren't just induced for plot sake.

For example

Vegeta gets worse of a beating on Earth than Goku got while Ginyu was in his body. Yet, Vegeta only gained a power level increase of 4000, while Goku gains a power level increase of 2,910,000. Similar instances with Vegeta zenkai boost post recoome, and post krillin blowing a whole through his stomach.

Goku spends 3 years training for Piccolo Jr, and makes only an increase of 100-150. While his friends spend, one year of training and they somehow all gain massive power boost of 1000+.

Tien spends 5++ years training in the crane school and is introduced with a power level of 180. Yet within 3 years time he is shown being stronger than the Goku that fought Piccolo daimo implying his power level increased for the very least by 100. Which is more than half the amount he had when he was first introduced.

Jackie Chun has a power level of 137 due to being out of shape, and not training for a very long time. Yet somehow is able to get back into his prime form after 3 years with a Pl of 180. This is like Michael Phelps not training for 10 years, then starting back training for the Olympics in 3 years time and expecting to be in his prime when he was 27.
--
The entire show follows a power level relation system, in which Character A at end of series will always be X steps behind character B, unless plot dictates otherwise.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Your entire argument is based on the sole notion that dragon ball follows some logically sequence and that power ups aren't just induced for plot sake.

For example

Vegeta gets a worse beating on Earth than Goku got while Ginyu was in his body on Namek. Yet, Vegeta only gain a power level increase of 4000, while Goku gains a power level increase of 2,910,000. Similar instances with Vegeta zenkai boost post recoome, and post krillin blowing a whole through his stomach.

Goku spends 3 years training for Piccolo Jr, and makes only an increase of 100-150. While his friends spend, one year of training and they somehow all gain massive power boost of 1000+.

Tenshinhan spends 16 years training in the crane school and is introduced with a power level of 180. Yet within 3 years time he is shown being stronger than the Goku that fought Piccolo daimo implying his power level increased for the very least by 100. Which is more than half the amount he had when he was first introduced.

--
The entire show follows a power level relation system, in which Character A at end of series will always be X steps behind character B, unless plot dictates otherwise.

I understand that Power ups are induced for plot device. I totally agree with you on that. But it needs to follow context and certain "rules" based on all available info, which is where estimates based on "common sense" come in.

But ridiculous power ups didn't happen as commonly at that point in the series as it did later on. For example, Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans for no apparent reason and Gohan becoming the strongest single character in the Boo fights didn't make any sense at all.

But either way, either as common sense (my argument) or a plot device (your argument), Krillin's going to be stronger then Ten, Yamcha or Chaotzu because they weren't involved in any of the fights in the series at that point, so there's no reason for them to be as strong as him or ever be as strong if they aren't going to play a major part in the series ever again. None of them played a major part in the series after the appearance of the Super Saiyans, so if they stay at levels below 400,000, I don't see how debating it would change the fact that they're weak simply because they're not Saiyans.

I've got my money on Krillin being stronger at that point because of the limited time frame that the dead guys had for training and the "cheat" Krillin got (Grand Elder Power Up).

[shonenhikada]

Your entire argument is based on the sole notion that dragon ball follows some logically sequence and that power ups aren't just induced for plot sake.

For example

Vegeta gets a worse beating on Earth than Goku got while Ginyu was in his body on Namek. Yet, Vegeta only gain a power level increase of 4000, while Goku gains a power level increase of 2,910,000. Similar instances with Vegeta zenkai boost post recoome, and post krillin blowing a whole through his stomach.

Goku spends 3 years training for Piccolo Jr, and makes only an increase of 100-150. While his friends spend, one year of training and they somehow all gain massive power boost of 1000+.

Tenshinhan spends 16 years training in the crane school and is introduced with a power level of 180. Yet within 3 years time he is shown being stronger than the Goku that fought Piccolo daimo implying his power level increased for the very least by 100. Which is more than half the amount he had when he was first introduced.

--
The entire show follows a power level relation system, in which Character A at end of series will always be X steps behind character B, unless plot dictates otherwise.

I understand that Power ups are induced for plot device. I totally agree with you on that. But it needs to follow context and certain "rules" based on all available info, which is where estimates based on "common sense" come in.

But ridiculous power ups didn't happen as commonly at that point in the series as it did later on. For example, Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans for no apparent reason and Gohan becoming the strongest single character in the Boo fights didn't make any sense at all.

But either way, either as common sense (my argument) or a plot device (your argument), Krillin's going to be stronger then Ten, Yamcha or Chaotzu because they weren't involved in any of the fights in the series at that point, so there's no reason for them to be as strong as him or ever be as strong if they aren't going to play a major part in the series ever again. None of them played a major part in the series after the appearance of the Super Saiyans, so if they stay at levels below 400,000, I don't see how debating it would change the fact that they're weak simply because they're not Saiyans.

I've got my money on Krillin being stronger at that point because of the limited time frame that the dead guys had for training and the "cheat" (Grand Elder Power Up).

I've got my money on Tien being stronger than Krillin due to my belief that character relationship dictates Power ups in this series. However,Krillin could be stronger than Yamcha, at this time in the series. Though, this relation will change after Yamcha gets those extra months on King Kai planet training with Tien.

I am one of those people who accept the Ginyu force vs Z-senshi filler scene.

[Rocketman]

I am one of those people who accept the Ginyu force vs Z-senshi filler scene.

You think Tien went from ~1000 to 120,000 in six days, far surpassing even Goku?

[Ketchup_Revenge]

I am one of those people who accept the Ginyu force vs Z-senshi filler scene.

Oh dear... it's no wonder we disagree

I've got my money on Tenshinhan being stronger than Krillin due to my belief that character relationship dictates Power ups in this series. However,Krillin could be stronger than Yamcha, at this time in the series. Though, this relation will change after Yamcha gets those extra months on King Kai planet training with Tenshinhan.

I was simply talking about up to the time when Freeza gets chopped. At that time, the dead ones had only been training on Kaiosama's planet for a couple weeks at most.

[Kaboom]

The "plot" requires or determines Tenshinhan to be the strongest human no matter what? What plot is that exactly? The last worthwhile thing he did with his own power was beat a Saibaiman. Yay. (And even THAT looked pathetic compared to Kuririn's Saibaimen-slaughtering feat)

I've said this before, but the thing about plot-induced power-ups is that they always actually have some sort of plot device or reason behind them. Characters don't just get a lot stronger for no reason. There's always some sort of a why and a how behind it, even if it's a little thin.

There is no "why" or "how" for the humans' power in relationship to each other. They're all ultimately meaningless power-wise anytime after their battle with Nappa. Arguably Kuririn's power meant something during Namek, but that's pretty much it.

Which is again why I'm perpetually confused about the "need" that lots of fans apparently have to find any excuse to consider Tenshinhan the strongest human, always and forever. Why? Why does he need to be? What does it matter if Kuririn's stronger than him? Why can't Tenshinhan be the second-largest ant on the ground and Kuririn the largest ant, when everyone else who actually matters is a freakin' dinosaur in comparison?

[Bussani]

I am one of those people who accept the Ginyu force vs Z-senshi filler scene.

You think Tenshinhan went from ~1000 to 120,000 in six days, far surpassing even Goku?

Well, Ginyu wasn't with them, so it wouldn't have to be 120,000. Ginyu estimated that Goku must have been around 60,000 to have beaten Recoom and Burta, so that would probably be enough. But that's still more than a thirty-times increase in six days. Goku only got about a ten or eleven-times increase in those same six days doing far more ridiculous training, so even if we take into account that the humans have done well at catching up and outperforming Goku at other points in the past, this still stretches suspension of disbelief a bit far.

That isn't even taking into account that he split into four during the fight, which divides his power. He may have to have been stronger than 60,000 for each of the four Tenshinhan's to still be strong enough to do anything.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

The "plot" requires or determines Tenshinhan to be the strongest human no matter what? What plot is that exactly? The last worthwhile thing he did with his own power was beat a Saibaiman. Yay. (And even THAT looked pathetic compared to Kuririn's Saibaimen-slaughtering feat)

I've said this before, but the thing about plot-induced power-ups is that they always actually have some sort of plot device or reason behind them. Characters don't just get a lot stronger for no reason. There's always some sort of a why and a how behind it, even if it's a little thin.

There is no "why" or "how" for the humans' power in relationship to each other. They're all ultimately meaningless power-wise anytime after their battle with Nappa. Arguably Kuririn's power meant something during Namek, but that's pretty much it.

Which is again why I'm perpetually confused about the "need" that lots of fans apparently have to find any excuse to consider Tenshinhan the strongest human, always and forever. Why? Why does he need to be? What does it matter if Kuririn's stronger than him? Why can't Tenshinhan be the second-largest ant on the ground and Kuririn the largest ant, when everyone else who actually matters is a freakin' dinosaur in comparison?

I agree, and I believe that his imposing appearance is the answer to all your questions about fans' needs to put Ten at the top. Kuririn or Yamcha don't look very imposing, and Ten was stronger then either of them when he was introduced, so by fan logic (how sensical ) he's gotta be the strongest, always and forever.

[dbgtFO]

I am one of those people who accept the Ginyu force vs Z-senshi filler scene.

You think Tenshinhan went from ~1000 to 120,000 in six days, far surpassing even Goku?

[...]
That isn't even taking into account that he split into four during the fight, which divides his power. He may have to have been stronger than 60,000 for each of the four Tenshinhan's to still be strong enough to do anything.

That's what Rocketman was getting at.

[Bussani]

Oh, was it? I must have missed that because I thought 120,000 divided four ways would be too low to fight them, but if he was saying that he'd need at least 120,000, then I can see what he must have meant.

[CaptainKatsura]

Guys, Ginyu Force filler is a filler. It shouldn't be taken seriously since we don't know whether Toriyama confirmed its canonicity or not.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Guys, Ginyu Force filler is a filler. It shouldn't be taken seriously since we don't know whether Toriyama confirmed its canonicity or not.

Toriyama doesn't care about canonicity, and just because something is filler, doesn't mean it can't be discussed if that's what the involved parties want.

[shonenhikada]

Oh, was it? I must have missed that because I thought 120,000 divided four ways would be too low to fight them, but if he was saying that he'd need at least 120,000, then I can see what he must have meant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhCJSkkG ... ure=relmfu

Tien divided into 2 not 4. This give him a battle power of 70,000-80,000.

The Z-senshi were getting pressured by the Ginyu Force in the beginning of the fight but once they realized how strong they got, they manage to release their full strength they defeated the Ginyu Force pretty handily.

http://youtu.be/0voVNDaBRuU

Yamcha based on his performance against Recoome probably has a BP of 45,000-50,000.

Chaioutzu has a BP of 13,000-14,000 based on his performance against Guldo.

[CaptainKatsura]

Still I would be reluctant to take seriously ANY filler made by Toei. Not after that flop called Dragonball GT, whose power levels were bullshit.

[Bussani]

Tenshinhan divided into 2 not 4.

Oh, my mistake. In that case I can see where Rocketman's estimate of 120,000 came from.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't know whether or not I haven't mentioned this already, but to be honest, the only Earthling fighter I have even reaching 100k by the end of the series is Tenshinhan. Meanwhile, I believe that Kuririn and Yamcha remained at 75k and 45k respectively (I think that Kuririn only reached 75k after the three years of training to prepare for the Androids). I'd call putting them at even a million generous, because there's no actual need for them to be that particularly strong because there's no plot device to back it up. They don't do anything other than get their asses handed to them and, for Ten, repeatedly fire the Shin Kikouhou that's nothing more than a staller than doesn't even harm Cell.

Of course, I understand that everyone has different battle powers lists and opinions on how fast characters' strengths can improve, since it's pretty much free game post-Freeza, when battle powers dropped off the map. I'm actually one of those people who think Piccolo post-Kaiou's training was stronger than Nail at the least, because Nail's "I don't know what kind of training you had" is basically the same as what Kuririn asks about Gokuu after he beats him at running, or what Kuririn says when he sees Piccolo beating #20, and in both those cases, the fighters he was talking about were stronger than him.

That kind of draws similarities to the "was Piccolo saying that Kaioushin was stronger than him, or just of a higher godly/otherworldly status?" debate, but let's not get into that now.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Still I would be reluctant to take seriously ANY filler made by Toei. Not after that flop called Dragonball GT, whose power levels were bullshit.

That's your opinion. Some people like it; some people want to talk about it (and GT too, believe it or not). Most of us here are aware of which scenes are filler, so "that's not canon" isn't helpful and adds nothing to the discussion

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Meanwhile, I believe that Kuririn and Yamcha remained at 75k and 45k respectively (I think that Kuririn only reached 75k after the three years of training to prepare for the Androids).

I'm pretty sure there's an official PL scan floating around somewhere that puts Krillin at 75K during the Freeza fight, but I just realized that wouldn't make sense if Recoom (60K) was able to blow him away with a single kick. Even if he was able to improve somehow in a day between his fight with Recoom and his fight with Freeza, it wouldn't put him anywhere near 75K.
I'm willing to put him at 40K for his fight with Ginyu/Freeza, but bump him to 100K after three years of training for the Androids.
He probably didn't train much in those months (after his revival) following the Freeza arc, so even if he was 75K, he probably dropped by the time that year was up when Freeza arrived on Earth.

[Kaboom]

The idea is that he and Gohan's power kept steadily rising up through the course of the battle with Freeza.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The idea is that he and Gohan's power kept steadily rising up through the course of the battle with Freeza.

Yeah, this, because apparently, the Great Elder's power-unlocking ability ritual thingy takes a while to draw out completely. So I figure Gohan and Kuririn were 12k and 11k respectively against Recoom, 28k and 25k respectively against Ginyuu, and 40k and 35k respectively against Freeza until it stopped for Kuririn somewhere around that time and Gohan surpassed its limits via his Zenkai.

So Kuririn, Yamcha and Tenshinhan would wind up at 75k, 45k and 65k by the fight with the Androids, and because Tenshinhan was the only one that continued to train after the Cell Games, he'd end up at 100k by the Boo arc. Kuririn's the strongest Earthling between the Freeza and Boo arcs because having his dormant power keeps him ahead of however much power Ten and co. could gain through Kaiou's training. Piccolo's gain is irrelevant because it was a plot device and he's a gifted Namekian. Those are my estimations anyway.