Was Gohan "Ultimate" in Movie #12?

[TheMightyOzaru]

"Status quo" is not a good argument for anything.

Goku DID surpass Piccolo again, obviously. Except he had a new method of doing so this time around: Super Saiyan. Want to see a list?

WAYS THAT GOKU HAS SURPASSED PICCOLO IN POWER
King Piccolo Arc: Super Holy Water.
23rd Tournament Arc: Special training from Kami.
Saiyan Arc: Special training from Kaio.
Namek Arc: Gravity training and abuse of Saiyan healing boosts. (Then Super Saiyan was just overkill)
Androids Arc: Super Saiyan.
Cell Arc: Super Saiyan "Grades," then Full-Power Super Saiyan.

Umm Base Goku has been surpassing Piccolo at every turn why the heck would he all of the sudden need a 50x boost to do it. He never has before and I certainly dont see a reason for it now.

[Kaboom]

Because Piccolo was shown fighting right up there along with Super Saiyans in the Androids arc.

And thus this discussion has come full-circle.

... And it apparently has little to do with the original topic.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Why would a Namekian surpass a Saiyan without fusion? They have never done so before so why now? You would be wrong Piccolo states that Goku was fighting at his full power at first but later Piccolo says Goku should be much much stronger.

Actually, you would be wrong because Piccolo states he's putting out close to full-power right before commenting on his condition:

Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

He says this when Gohan and the others are actually there, so this is well after the beginning of the fight. More like the middle of the battle. He was winded and tired, and his power didn't drop significantly until he used his Kame. Piccolo does mention that his power should be more ridiculous than that, but he's still putting out close to full-power at that point.

His power level seems to be decreasing rapidly. Knowing Goku he probably wanted to have some fun at first but then his power started to rapidly decrease and Piccolo saw that.

No indication he wanted to have fun at all. He specifically told the Androids he was going to tear them apart.

Why would Krillin bother mentioning "Super Saiyan" when commenting on Piccolo's power at all? Why not just mention the fact that he's "not" a Saiyan instead? I also don't understand this "it hasn't happened before, so it can never happen" stuff. It's pretty clear Piccolo powered-up ridiculously over the 3 yrs, whether it seems unrealistic or not.

[Fox666]

Because Piccolo was shown fighting right up there along with Super Saiyans in the Androids arc.

And thus this discussion has come full-circle.

... And it apparently has little to do with the original topic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You know, if Piccolo was stronger than Nail when he arrived on Namek, that would mean he increased his power in more than 10 times in 3 days.

Mathematically speaking, if Piccolo increased his power at that rate for 3 years, he would have increased his power in 10^365 times. Let's see what that number would look like:

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Exponential growth is fun, isn't it?

Except that there is no indication that Piccolo was stronger than Nail. Nail could be impressed with Piccolo's power because it was way above a Warrior-type's average power. And as for why he wasn't impressed with Vegeta's power, Vegeta was his enemy, he wouldn't compliment his enemy, who was weaker than him. But in Piccolo's case, he just met for the first time a guy from his own race to be a lot stronger than the average Namekian. But Piccolo should be above Vegeta in Saiyan arc if he originally believed that he could beat Freeza.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Actually, you would be wrong because Piccolo states he's putting out close to full-power right before commenting on his condition:
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

You forget he states that Goku should be much much stronger shortly after.

He says this when Gohan and the others are actually there, so this is well after the beginning of the fight. More like the middle of the battle. He was winded and tired, and his power didn't drop significantly until he used his Kame. Piccolo does mention that his power should be more ridiculous than that, but he's still putting out close to full-power at that point.

See thats the thing Piccolo does say he should be much much stronger. He is only saying he is putting out close to his current full power. Since Piccolo says he should be much much stronger I rest my case. Goku is very hindered.

No indication he wanted to have fun at all. He specifically told the Androids he was going to tear them apart.

Goku can say what he wants. He is a Saiyan so he is going to enjoy the fight.

Why would Krillin bother mentioning "Super Saiyan" when commenting on Piccolo's power at all? Why not just mention the fact that he's "not" a Saiyan instead? I also don't understand this "it hasn't happened before, so it can never happen" stuff. It's pretty clear Piccolo powered-up ridiculously over the 3 yrs, whether it seems unrealistic or not.

He is simply impressed that he can beat the android without being a SSJ. SSJs are just really strong and like I stated before they didnt even notice that Goku's power was much much weaker than before so its not a valid point.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

See thats the thing Piccolo does say he should be much much stronger. He is only saying he is putting out close to his current full power. Since Piccolo says he should be much much stronger I rest my case. Goku is very hindered.

Doesn't really matter. Piccolo exceeds what Goku displayed against a more powerful Andrid, and you have yet to prove any Base Saiyan is capable of putting out close to that amount of power at that point. The only point you have against Piccolo is "it's never happened before, so it's not true now", and that's all. Guess what? Piccolo never trained with a Super Saiyan before, but he did in those 3 yrs. He also powered-up incredibly from it, which is stated and shown.

Goku can say what he wants. He is a Saiyan so he is going to enjoy the fight.

Not when he's shown to be going all-out without pause.

He is simply impressed that he can beat the android without being a SSJ. SSJs are just really strong and like I stated before they didnt even notice that Goku's power was much much weaker than before so its not a valid point.

You keep mentioning Goku, forgetting the fact that Vegeta's power had already been sensed well after that happened. Besides, I already gave an explanation as to why they didn't notice this--and that was because they never saw Goku's true power like Piccolo and Gohan. That's not a knock on the humans, as they weren't in a position to be aware of this to begin with. Whatever the case may be, Krillin was astounded by Piccolo's power-up, and the very fact that he not only mentions Piccolo in the same category as them, but also believes a Super Saiyan is needed to handle the Androids says far more about Super Saiyan power than it does Base power.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Doesn't really matter. Piccolo exceeds what Goku displayed against a more powerful Andrid, and you have yet to prove any Base Saiyan is capable of putting out close to that amount of power at that point. The only point you have against Piccolo is "it's never happened before, so it's not true now", and that's all. Guess what? Piccolo never trained with a Super Saiyan before, but he did in those 3 yrs. He also powered-up incredibly from it, which is stated and shown.

It doesnt matter? Dude are you listening to yourself? Goku was very weak when he fought 19 Piccolo says so nuff said. Tell me how does training with a SSJ yield a larger increase? Why is fighting SSJ Goku any different than fighting Base Goku? They are both stronger than Piccolo it shouldnt make a difference =/.

Not when he's shown to be going all-out without pause.

Goku wasnt going all out at first. He was messing with him in case you didnt notice.

You keep mentioning Goku, forgetting the fact that Vegeta's power had already been sensed well after that happened. Besides, I already gave an explanation as to why they didn't notice this--and that was because they never saw Goku's true power like Piccolo and Gohan. That's not a knock on the humans, as they weren't in a position to be aware of this to begin with. Whatever the case may be, Krillin was astounded by Piccolo's power-up, and the very fact that he not only mentions Piccolo in the same category as them, but also believes a Super Saiyan is needed to handle the Androids says far more about Super Saiyan power than it does Base power.

No thats not the case at all. Krillin is impressed that Piccolo is beating an enemy that should have given a SSJ trouble based on Trunks' story. You're seriously taking his quote all wrong. He isnt a SSJ yet Piccolo is so strong its the basis of the statement that doesnt mean in any way that Piccolo is close to a SSJ.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It doesnt matter? Dude are you listening to yourself? Goku was very weak when he fought 19 Piccolo says so nuff said.

I can ask the same question. The only thing stated is Goku's full-power should be more stupendous than what's shown. He's not stated to be "very weak" at all, so nuff said. How does this prove he's weaker than he was 3 yrs back, again? It doesn't. It just means his true power was greater, and his true power would've obviously been reached during the training for the Androids.

Weaker than he should be in no way translates to being weaker than he was 3 yrs before returning from Yardrat. It just means he was weaker than his full-power at that point that only Piccolo and Gohan would be aware of. It's really that simple.

Oh, and Goku's power was only stated to drop considerably once he used a Kame-Hame-Ha. Again, stated.

Tell me how does training with a SSJ yield a larger increase? Why is fighting SSJ Goku any different than fighting Base Goku? They are both stronger than Piccolo it shouldnt make a difference =/.

Obviously Super Saiyan Goku would force Piccolo to push himself harder than he ever had before. Besides, all you have is your opinion on Piccolo not powering-up as much as it's implied in the story. Here's a better one: why would Goku even bother using Super Saiyan during the training if it wouldn't be a factor whatsoever, according to you?

Now again: prove Base Vegeta could defeat a powered-up #20 (with energy from Super Saiyan Vegeta, and a good amount of Piccolo's energy, Yamcha doesn't count, lol) and then we'll go from there. If you can't, then I guess Piccolo being stronger than Base Vegeta is a foregone conclusion

Goku wasnt going all out at first. He was messing with him in case you didnt notice.

Then you need to look over the fight again. He was fighting #19 all-out before trying to blast him away. Piccolo says he was rushing the fight, and he tries to erase him right afterwards, so there's no indication whatsoever he was playing around.

No thats not the case at all. Krillin is impressed that Piccolo is beating an enemy that should have given a SSJ trouble based on Trunks' story. You're seriously taking his quote all wrong. He isnt a SSJ yet Piccolo is so strong its the basis of the statement

Let's look at it in simple terms:

"He's strong"=Self-explanatory
"What kind of training did he do?"=His training with Super Saiyan Goku was obviously special enough for Krillin to bother bringing it up
"He's not a Super Saiyan"=Piccolo's doing something only a Super Saiyan should be capable of doing

Piccolo's stronger than Sick Super Saiyan Goku who's more powerful than his Base form. Prove otherwise.

that doesnt mean in any way that Piccolo is close to a SSJ.

But it certainly means a Base Saiyan isn't close to Piccolo.

[Rocketman]

Let's look at it in simple terms:

"He's strong"=Self-explanatory
"What kind of training did he do?"=His training with Super Saiyan Goku was obviously special enough for Krillin to bother bringing it up
"He's not a Super Saiyan"=Piccolo's doing something only a Super Saiyan should be capable of doing

Piccolo's stronger than Sick Super Saiyan Goku who's more powerful than his Base form. Prove otherwise.

The bolded part isn't supported here.

It's also important to remember that the character don't think or talk in fan terms. Krillin is never going to say "He's not a Super Saiyan or Goku using Kaioken x20" even if it would be a fair comparison.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Actually, it is. Piccolo put down a much more powerful #20 way more efficiently than a going all-out Super Saiyan Goku did to a weaker #19. Despite the fact that Goku was sick, his attacks were still damaging #19 and draining his energy fairly quickly. Unless you think Goku would do better against the powered-up #20 than Piccolo could....

All we have to go on is dialogue and battles shown in the Manga. Even if certain things make no sense.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It doesnt matter? Dude are you listening to yourself? Goku was very weak when he fought 19 Piccolo says so nuff said.

I can ask the same question. The only thing stated is Goku's full-power should be more stupendous than what's shown. He's not stated to be "very weak" at all, so nuff said. How does this prove he's weaker than he was 3 yrs back, again? It doesn't. It just means his true power was greater, and his true power would've obviously been reached during the training for the Androids.

Weaker than he should be in no way translates to being weaker than he was 3 yrs before returning from Yardrat. It just means he was weaker than his full-power at that point that only Piccolo and Gohan would be aware of. It's really that simple.

Oh, and Goku's power was only stated to drop considerably once he used a Kame-Hame-Ha. Again, stated.

Tell me how does training with a SSJ yield a larger increase? Why is fighting SSJ Goku any different than fighting Base Goku? They are both stronger than Piccolo it shouldnt make a difference =/.

Obviously Super Saiyan Goku would force Piccolo to push himself harder than he ever had before. Besides, all you have is your opinion on Piccolo not powering-up as much as it's implied in the story. Here's a better one: why would Goku even bother using Super Saiyan during the training if it wouldn't be a factor whatsoever, according to you?

Now again: prove Base Vegeta could defeat a powered-up #20 (with energy from Super Saiyan Vegeta, and a good amount of Piccolo's energy, Yamcha doesn't count, lol) and then we'll go from there. If you can't, then I guess Piccolo being stronger than Base Vegeta is a foregone conclusion

Goku wasnt going all out at first. He was messing with him in case you didnt notice.

Then you need to look over the fight again. He was fighting #19 all-out before trying to blast him away. Piccolo says he was rushing the fight, and he tries to erase him right afterwards, so there's no indication whatsoever he was playing around.

No thats not the case at all. Krillin is impressed that Piccolo is beating an enemy that should have given a SSJ trouble based on Trunks' story. You're seriously taking his quote all wrong. He isnt a SSJ yet Piccolo is so strong its the basis of the statement

Let's look at it in simple terms:

"He's strong"=Self-explanatory
"What kind of training did he do?"=His training with Super Saiyan Goku was obviously special enough for Krillin to bother bringing it up
"He's not a Super Saiyan"=Piccolo's doing something only a Super Saiyan should be capable of doing

Piccolo's stronger than Sick Super Saiyan Goku who's more powerful than his Base form. Prove otherwise.

that doesnt mean in any way that Piccolo is close to a SSJ.

But it certainly means a Base Saiyan isn't close to Piccolo.

A very weak SSJ Goku is potentially weaker than his max base. No Goku's power was stated to have dropped dramatically before Goku used the Kamehameha =/.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Actually, it is. Piccolo put down a much more powerful #20 way more efficiently than a going all-out Super Saiyan Goku did to a weaker #19. Despite the fact that Goku was sick, his attacks were still damaging #19 and draining his energy fairly quickly. Unless you think Goku would do better against the powered-up #20 than Piccolo could....

Dude we dont even know SSJ Goku's power level when he was fighting 19, its a invalid point.

[Fox666]

Except that there is no indication that Piccolo was stronger than Nail. Nail could be impressed with Piccolo's power because it was way above a Warrior-type's average power. And as for why he wasn't impressed with Vegeta's power, Vegeta was his enemy, he wouldn't compliment his enemy, who was weaker than him. But in Piccolo's case, he just met for the first time a guy from his own race to be a lot stronger than the average Namekian. But Piccolo should be above Vegeta in Saiyan arc if he originally believed that he could beat Freeza.

"If Piccolo was stronger than Nail"

But let's make the inverse operation. If Piccolo got 100 times stronger in 3 years, that means he increased his power by 365√100 times every 3 day.

That means he increased his power 1.012697 times in Kaio's planet, raising it from 3,500 to 3,544. I guess we agree that in Kaio's planet he increased more than in these 3 years of training, right?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

A very weak SSJ Goku is potentially weaker than his max base. No Goku's power was stated to have dropped dramatically before Goku used the Kamehameha =/.

Lol, nope. Not once was Goku implied to be so weak that he was under his Base. That's ridiculous when you consider the fact that he's still 50x stronger than usual. Even Piccolo's dialogue ("His power should be more stupendous") doesn't help you there. Oh, before I forget--how would Base Vegeta defeat a powered-up #20? I'm still curious about this one.

His power never dropped dramatically before he used his blast---he simply wasn't fighting at his highest level. Stated.

Dude we dont even know SSJ Goku's power level when he was fighting 19, its a invalid point.

Way more valid than your point on the Base Saiyans still being above Piccolo and being strong enough to beat both Androids, which is not shown or implied anywhere. The Manga does quite a good job showing Piccolo is playing out of the Base Saiyans league once the Android saga arrives.

Now go ahead and show the Base Saiyans are capable of defeating both Androids and Piccolo at this point. I'm still waiting.

[TheMightyOzaru]

A very weak SSJ Goku is potentially weaker than his max base. No Goku's power was stated to have dropped dramatically before Goku used the Kamehameha =/.

Lol, nope. Not once was Goku implied to be so weak that he was under his Base. That's ridiculous when you consider the fact that he's still 50x stronger than usual. Even Piccolo's dialogue ("His power should be more stupendous") doesn't help you there. Oh, before I forget--how would Base Vegeta defeat a powered-up #20? I'm still curious about this one.

His power never dropped dramatically before he used his blast---he simply wasn't fighting at his highest level. Stated.
Wrong Piccolo stated his power was much much weaker than it should be =/. How is a life threatening virus dropping his base more than 50x ridiculous?

Dude we dont even know SSJ Goku's power level when he was fighting 19, its a invalid point.

Way more valid than your point on the Base Saiyans still being above Piccolo and being strong enough to beat both Androids, which is not shown or implied anywhere. The Manga does quite a good job showing Piccolo is playing out of the Base Saiyans league once the Android saga arrives.

Now go ahead and show the Base Saiyans are capable of defeating both Androids and Piccolo at this point. I'm still waiting.

Wrong Piccolo stated his power was much much weaker than it should be =/. How is a life threatening virus dropping his base more than 50x ridiculous? More valid how?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except that there is no indication that Piccolo was stronger than Nail. Nail could be impressed with Piccolo's power because it was way above a Warrior-type's average power. And as for why he wasn't impressed with Vegeta's power, Vegeta was his enemy, he wouldn't compliment his enemy, who was weaker than him. But in Piccolo's case, he just met for the first time a guy from his own race to be a lot stronger than the average Namekian. But Piccolo should be above Vegeta in Saiyan arc if he originally believed that he could beat Freeza.

"If Piccolo was stronger than Nail" But let's make the inverse operation. If Piccolo got 100 times stronger in 3 years, that means he increased his power by 365√100 times ijn 3 day. That means he increased his power 1.012697 in Kaio's planet, increasing his power from 3,500 to only 3,544. I guess we agree that in Kaio's planet he increased more than in these 3 years of training, right?

I don't think it's fair to compare Piccolo's training in AfterLife with his training on Earth, since the conditions were different in each case.
In AfterLife, Piccolo ran for one month across Serpentine Road, and trained for 3 days in Kaio's Planet, which had gravity ten times bigger than Earth's, and all these in a dead body, which means much more stamina, and no need for food, water, or sleep.
On Earth, the gravity was normal, his body was normal, but he was training with a Super Saiyan for three years.
By taking all these into account, I doubt that one day of his training in AfterLife is equal to one day of his training on Earth.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No, he stated his power is more "stupendous" than what he's showing. That's it. Piccolo even asks Gohan if he notices the change in Goku. If he was 50x weaker than he should be, this would've been obvious from the very beginning before the fight even began. Especially since you seem to think the virus already de-powered Goku on the island when there were no signs of the virus. The virus was only beginning to be an issue once they arrived in the wasteland, and Super Saiyan sped up the significance of it. Meaning, Goku's punch on #20 is still more than enough to show he can't do jack squat to #20 at that point, much less a more powerful #20.

Tien comments on Goku's power being in another dimension, Piccolo is wondering about Goku at that point, then as the fight drags on a bit more, he starts to notice his condition. Nothing you're implying whatsoever.

[Bussani]

Despite Super Saiyan Goku being weaker than he should be, Tenshinhan was still blown away by his power, saying things like: "So that's Goku as a Super Saiyan? Amazing! What strength... He's in a completely different dimension to the rest of us...!" If he was weaker than his base form should have been at that time, then even base Goku must far surpass poor Tenshinhan--and everyone else as far as he's concerned.