Buu Saga Info

[Draken]

It is being inferred, in HIS viewpoint. That's what this is isn't it? A debate of differing viewpoints? Because I'm pretty sure you've acknowledged that this is an era of shitty writing with various viewpoints. His viewpoint says after rosat, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. Whether that is in base or transformations or whatever is up to the reader. For Hitiro, he is saying on equal grounds. Meaning base Gotenks > base Vegeta. And because it is explicitly stated twice that Vegeta base = Goku base, that means Gotenks base > Goku base. A = B, B < C, so A < C. What snide comments? Thanks.

Also I don't understand your scenario at all. Are you saying 3 is Gohan and 2 is Goku and 4 is Gotenks? Because if that's the case then yes, if 3 is greater than 2 and 3 is greater than 4.

[Amuro Ray]

It is being inferred, in HIS viewpoint. That's what this is isn't it? A debate of differing viewpoints? Because I'm pretty sure you've acknowledged that this is an era of shitty writing with various viewpoints. His viewpoint says after rosat, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. Whether that is in base or transformations or whatever is up to the reader. For Hitiro, he is saying on equal grounds. Meaning base Gotenks > base Vegeta. And because it is explicitly stated twice that Vegeta base = Goku base, that means Gotenks base > Goku base. A = B, B < C, so A < C. What snide comments? Thanks.

Also I don't understand your scenario at all. Are you saying 3 is Gohan and 2 is Goku and 4 is Gotenks? Because if that's the case then yes, if 3 is greater than 2 and 3 is greater than 4.

Hahaha, ok. But I'll ask you again since you all seem to dodge the question - what was the significance of mentioning Vegeta is Goku is stronger - base forms are probably not implied since the word "others" are mentioned.

[Draken]

It is being inferred, in HIS viewpoint. That's what this is isn't it? A debate of differing viewpoints? Because I'm pretty sure you've acknowledged that this is an era of shitty writing with various viewpoints. His viewpoint says after rosat, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. Whether that is in base or transformations or whatever is up to the reader. For Hitiro, he is saying on equal grounds. Meaning base Gotenks > base Vegeta. And because it is explicitly stated twice that Vegeta base = Goku base, that means Gotenks base > Goku base. A = B, B < C, so A < C. What snide comments? Thanks.

Also I don't understand your scenario at all. Are you saying 3 is Gohan and 2 is Goku and 4 is Gotenks? Because if that's the case then yes, if 3 is greater than 2 and 3 is greater than 4.

Hahaha, ok. But I'll ask you again since you all seem to dodge the question - what was the significance of mentioning Vegeta is Goku is stronger - base forms are probably not implied since the word "others" are mentioned.

I'm not dodging it, I'm giving my own interpretation and that of Hitiro's. They mentioned Vegeta because that is the same as mentioning Goku if they are (which in my interpretation they are) just comparing base forms, because they have equal base forms. Others could be Piccolo (as Piccolo is definitely stronger than the base Saiyans at this point), Kaioshin, etc etc. Vegeta is A, Goku is B. A = B. Gotenks is C. If C > A, that is the same as saying C>A and C>B, but you don't need to add in the extra C>B part, because we can already tell through logic that C>B without wasting extra words.

[Amuro Ray]

So it makes more sense to mention Vegeta instead of Goku, who up to that point is the strongest person shown, and the main character of the story. Yeah, that is totally more believable.

[Draken]

So it makes more sense to mention Vegeta instead of Goku, who up to that point is the strongest person shown, and the main character of the story. Yeah, that is totally more believable.

Uh no strongest shown at that point would be Evil Buu and Fat Buu (we don't yet realize that Goku could have beaten Fat Buu at full power SSJ3 and no drawbacks of the form). Also Vegeta and Goku are known bitter rivals, and Vegeta cares more about strength. Why not make strength comparisons? Lastly Gohan would be the main character at this point in the series (he was meant to take over after all, Toriyama just later changed his mind). To say Vegeta means that Vegeta (and as a consequence, Goku) are both stronger than the main character Gohan, and both of them were still weaker than this new upstart prodigy, Gotenks. Also you still continue to flat out ignore your baseless opinion that Goku is lying when he FLAT OUT STATES SUPER BUU >> HIMSELF.

[Hitiro]

Piccolo never makes any suggestion that SSJ WILL be enough. Therefore SSJ < Vegeta.
See how weak that logic is, just because something isn't explicitly stated, doesn't mean whatever theory you create is automatically true.

Piccolo never suggests SSJ wouldn't be enough. If he believed SSJ Gotenks wasn't strong enough he would have said something like he did when Gotenks charged off in his base form:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

This was in response on what you said about Fatbuu. Go back and re-read what you wrote, THEN read my response.

I know what this was in response to, you are the one who needs to go back and re-read what what I wrote. You are saying Piccolo never suggests that SSJ will be enough, that is correct. But Piccolo never says there is no chance of them winning with SSJ. Your logic dictates that because Piccolo doesn't say SSJ will be enough then that automatically makes Gotenks < Vegeta. But if Piccolo knew that Gotenks was weaker than Vegeta he would NEVER entertain the idea of having SSJ Gotenks fight Fat Boo. This is obvious deduction.

ONE MORE TIME. Why would he suggest bringing BOTH Gotenks and Gohan, if Gohan, who we know to be stronger, could beat this supposedly weaker Buu? I never mentioned or inferred that he asked them both to fight Buu simultaneously, and if that's what you believed, I'm sorry.

ONE MORE TIME! Goku NEVER suggests bringing them both to fight. Goku only says that Vegeta is going to bring them both back to life. So they would be able to fight Boo. That doesn't mean Goku is implying using both of them to fight at the same time or having them both fight at all. You are appending extra information onto a sentence to suit your own need. If Goku were implying he was going to bring both of them to fight or have both of them fight Goku would have said "so they can both fight." or "so they can fight together." Goku's mention of both is purely in the terms of their resurrection with the dragonballs, that is it. There is no extra meaning.

It doesn't matter what your opinion of the subject matter is - based on your theory of the matter, everyone Vegeta's strength level and lower has died when facing Buu, and these boys didn't. That would mean the boys in base form are stronger than Vegeta as SSJ2, and as SSJ would far surpass him - that would mean the daizenshuu is wrong in saying the boys became stronger than Vegeta and the others AFTER training, furthermore it doesn't take into a account that this form of BUU can't sense KI, meaing techniques like the Solar Flare and hiding can possibly be effective.

No matter what, nothing of that sort is stated and your theory is foolishness and a non starter in my book. As a general rule going forward, keep to the 3 forms of media or don't mention it, it's impossible to argue with you when you are making up things to support your opinion...then again, I guess that could be the point.

Again, you are ignoring the battle damage on him and the fact that with all that battle damage he only came back with minor injuries. Any other character who has faced him were a lot worse off and were on the verge off death or, about to pass out in Vegeta's case, after receiving a few blows. And since when can Gotenks use Solar Flare? The boys have never seen that technique. With Kuririn and Goku they had already experienced it before. Goten and Trunks have yet to see a battle where Solar Flare has been used. Once again the Daizenshuu is vague in the way it says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. I'm not saying Base Gotenks needs to be > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, but he may be close to him in power pre-RoSaT and then post-RoSaT he surpassed him. Base Gotenks needs to be, at least, stronger than SSJ Gohan which would put SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. It could be the Daizenshuu is saying Base Gotenks wasn't as strong as SSJ2 Vegeta until post-RoSaT. You keep going on about how nobody can be stronger than Goku. You do realise that SSJ2 Goku can't beat Fat Boo and SSJ3 Goku can, right? Do you know how much of a gap that puts between each of the characters if you want them all to be weaker than SSJ3 Goku? We have:

SSJ3 25% Power: equivalent to SSJ2, Goku wouldn't be fighting Fat Boo with only 25% unless he wants to end up like Vegeta.
SSJ3 50% Power: equivalent to 2x SSJ2. A possible power output Goku used against Fat Boo, but Fat Boo would have to be much closer to SSJ2 power for Goku to pick him a part so easily without putting forth 100%
SSJ3 75% Power: equivalent to 3x SSJ2. A more probable power output Goku used against Fat Boo. It gives Fat Boo more leeway to be strong enough to destroy Vegeta and Gohan and Goku can still pick him apart easily without putting forth 100%
SSJ3 100% Power: Goku's maximum equivalent to 4x SSJ2 and the only power needed to be on par with Pure Boo.

^Given this small gap I find it hard to believe that Gohan who was easily destroying Evil Boo to be between 50% and 75% of Goku's SSJ3 power. For him to easily destroy Evil Boo, who is more powerful than Fat Boo, Gohan would need to, at least, be 2x Evil Boo's level to pick him apart like he did. This simply doesn't work if you confine every character within SSJ3 Goku's power level range. The range is much too small to accommodate such vast differences between characters like Gohan and Evil Boo.

[MrFreeze7005]

Super buu >>> Goku is obvious and explicitly stated TWICE, why can't people just get it?

@pakl / undertaker, Amuro Ray is not kakashi.....he never used the size excuse

He used the size argument. Also who is pakl?

LMAO, I'm not that dumb. The only person obsessed with kakashi is you.

Piccolo is obviously not the most reliable measure of power, considering how far off he was with Kaioshinn and Base Gotenks post ROSAT. It doesn't matter what you are saying, it doesn't matter what you believe, what is stated is that Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta until after he trains, it is stated that Superbuu is "greater" than before, though no one but Piccolo notices. Everything else is foolishness that you made up to support you theory.

Piccolo is stronger than base goku but weaker than base gotenks. so nuff said.

Heck, its stated Goku surpassed gohan only when he went SSJ2, so its obvious he didn't get that much stronger in the 7 years.
So now do you believe that Post SSJ1 Gotenks is even weaker than Cell?

[Undertaker]

Super buu >>> Goku is obvious and explicitly stated TWICE, why can't people just get it?

@pakl / undertaker, Amuro Ray is not kakashi.....he never used the size excuse

He used the size argument. Also who is pakl?

LMAO, I'm not that dumb. The only person obsessed with kakashi is you.

Piccolo is obviously not the most reliable measure of power, considering how far off he was with Kaioshinn and Base Gotenks post ROSAT. It doesn't matter what you are saying, it doesn't matter what you believe, what is stated is that Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta until after he trains, it is stated that Superbuu is "greater" than before, though no one but Piccolo notices. Everything else is foolishness that you made up to support you theory.

Piccolo is stronger than base goku but weaker than base gotenks. so nuff said.

Heck, its stated Goku surpassed gohan only when he went SSJ2, so its obvious he didn't get that much stronger in the 7 years.
So now do you believe that Post SSJ1 Gotenks is even weaker than Cell?

I know kakashi from YouTube. Who is pakl? My YouTube name is xXxMarqxXx

Not really, he repeats the same thing continuously and makes up information - it's impossible for me to argue his hypothetical scenarios.

<Obnoxious meme image removed by moderator>

You are the one who repeats the same excuses I have addressed above. You are definitely kakashiUzamaki. Please, stop this ridiculous theatre. In case you didn't notice, you are being laughed off and denying the truth. The Daiz can't refer to SSJ3 Gotenks surpassing Vegeta. It always mentions the person surpassing the highest characer before and there are many foes who are above Vegeta but below Gotenks. That proves they referred to Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta.

[Kaboom]

Enough double-identity accusations, enough talking down to people. If you guys can't discuss... whatever's being discussed in here at this point in a friendly and respectful manner, then the thread will not be allowed to continue.

[BejitaSama]

I just want to(re)ask you a question guys...
Do you really think that when Toriyama drew Buu Saga, he was thinking about stuff like multipliers of the SSJ forms ?
No, i really doubt.
And even when he validated the multipliers for the Super Exciting Guides, do you really think he made calculations for all the story ?
No, i really doubt too.

If Toriyama and Toei wanted to put an end to the debate, it would be done in the dozens of books that were published. It they never explained in detail all Buu's forms, and used formula such as everybody can interpret it the way he want, that means that there isn't really answer except that Buu Saga is more funny than serious, with its incoherences.

[Kamiccolo9]

I just want to(re)ask you a question guys...
Do you really think that when Toriyama drew Buu Saga, he was thinking about stuff like multipliers of the SSJ forms ?
No, i really doubt.
And even when he validated the multipliers for the Super Exciting Guides, do you really think he made calculations for all the story ?
No, i really doubt too.

If Toriyama and Toei wanted to put an end to the debate, it would be done in the dozens of books that were published. It they never explained in detail all Buu's forms, and used formula such as everybody can interpret it the way he want, that means that there isn't really answer except that Buu Saga is more funny than serious, with its incoherences.

It doesn't really matter. As I've said before, the people who hang around in the In-Universe forums have put way more time into analyzing the manga than Toryama has. He has pretty much moved on to other things at this point, BOG notwithstanding. He doesn't care about power level lists, or strength comparisons, or transformation multipliers.
But that doesn't mean we can't. And the vagueness in the manga, anime, and guidebooks is what allows for these discussions in the first place. If everything was spelled out for us, there wouldn't be anything to discuss, and then this would be a pretty boring place, dontcha think

[Amuro Ray]

So it makes more sense to mention Vegeta instead of Goku, who up to that point is the strongest person shown, and the main character of the story. Yeah, that is totally more believable.

Uh no strongest shown at that point would be Evil Buu and Fat Buu (we don't yet realize that Goku could have beaten Fat Buu at full power SSJ3 and no drawbacks of the form). Also Vegeta and Goku are known bitter rivals, and Vegeta cares more about strength. Why not make strength comparisons? Lastly Gohan would be the main character at this point in the series (he was meant to take over after all, Toriyama just later changed his mind). To say Vegeta means that Vegeta (and as a consequence, Goku) are both stronger than the main character Gohan, and both of them were still weaker than this new upstart prodigy, Gotenks. Also you still continue to flat out ignore your baseless opinion that Goku is lying when he FLAT OUT STATES SUPER BUU >> HIMSELF.

I've been bored with this, and to be honest, nothing new is being offered from your side of the arguement except clinging to one statement because nothing else alludes to the conclusion you are trying to reach.
Again, just so everyone here can see me point these discrepentecies out - I don't want your theory of the matter, I want what the anime/manga/guidebooks explaination.

Why is the change in Superbuu not noticed by anyone on earth BUT Piccolo - Goku's SSJ3 transformation was felt by everyone on Earth AND in otherworld - even when they weren't actively paying attention?

Technically, couldn't SSJ2 be felt in from otherworld - Buu uses instant transmission to track Goku and the others after he blew up Earth?

Why doesn't the Daizenshuu Specifically list Gotenks being stronger than Goku - he and Vegeta ARE NOT interchangeable (regardless of this Base power theory)

Daizenshuu 7 Bio's wrote:
The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

Who are the others - non Saiya-jin? Then it can't be considering "base" forms considering the others can't transform. ( NOTHING - NOTHING - NOTHING stated in any media source will back up your opinion on this matter, and if I'm wrong, please post it.)

[Kamiccolo9]

Technically, couldn't SSJ2 be felt in from otherworld - Buu uses instant transmission to track Goku and the others after he blew up Earth?

Buu copied Kaioshin's teleporting technique, not Instant Transmission. He doesn't need to sense ki to teleport. Also, they are SSJ1 at that point, not SSJ2.

[Amuro Ray]

I know what this was in response to, you are the one who needs to go back and re-read what what I wrote. You are saying Piccolo never suggests that SSJ will be enough, that is correct. But Piccolo never says there is no chance of them winning with SSJ. Your logic dictates that because Piccolo doesn't say SSJ will be enough then that automatically makes Gotenks < Vegeta. But if Piccolo knew that Gotenks was weaker than Vegeta he would NEVER entertain the idea of having SSJ Gotenks fight Fat Boo. This is obvious deduction.

I'm already fed up with you and the others - post up statements saying exactly this, or you're wrong, that is all there is too it. I do have statement of Piccolo wanting to test Gotenks speed; obviously you don't need to test someone if you're absolutely sure of their capabilities, right? And no - if Gotenks was on or above Vegeta's level, that would make the guidebook wrong - so no matter what, Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta. Case closed.

ONE MORE TIME! Goku NEVER suggests bringing them both to fight. Goku only says that Vegeta is going to bring them both back to life. So they would be able to fight Boo. That doesn't mean Goku is implying using both of them to fight at the same time or having them both fight at all. You are appending extra information onto a sentence to suit your own need. If Goku were implying he was going to bring both of them to fight or have both of them fight Goku would have said "so they can both fight." or "so they can fight together." Goku's mention of both is purely in the terms of their resurrection with the dragonballs, that is it. There is no extra meaning.

Listen - I'm doing everything I can not to have a very offensive outburst and comment on your lack of ability to read. The quote clearly says so "THEY CAN FIGHT." "THEY" IS PLURAL, meaning MORE THAN ONE. YOU ARE WRONG. Again, case closed.

Made up theory that isn't supportted in any media.

You made all of that up - it's foolishness. Come back when you have something worth my time discussing.

Enough double-identity accusations, enough talking down to people. If you guys can't discuss... whatever's being discussed in here at this point in a friendly and respectful manner, then the thread will not be allowed to continue.

THANK YOU.

[Undertaker]

So it makes more sense to mention Vegeta instead of Goku, who up to that point is the strongest person shown, and the main character of the story. Yeah, that is totally more believable.

Uh no strongest shown at that point would be Evil Buu and Fat Buu (we don't yet realize that Goku could have beaten Fat Buu at full power SSJ3 and no drawbacks of the form). Also Vegeta and Goku are known bitter rivals, and Vegeta cares more about strength. Why not make strength comparisons? Lastly Gohan would be the main character at this point in the series (he was meant to take over after all, Toriyama just later changed his mind). To say Vegeta means that Vegeta (and as a consequence, Goku) are both stronger than the main character Gohan, and both of them were still weaker than this new upstart prodigy, Gotenks. Also you still continue to flat out ignore your baseless opinion that Goku is lying when he FLAT OUT STATES SUPER BUU >> HIMSELF.

I've been bored with this, and to be honest, nothing new is being offered from your side of the arguement except clinging to one statement because nothing else alludes to the conclusion you are trying to reach.
Again, just so everyone here can see me point these discrepentecies out - I don't want your theory of the matter, I want what the anime/manga/guidebooks explaination.

Why is the change in Superbuu not noticed by anyone on earth BUT Piccolo - Goku's SSJ3 transformation was felt by everyone on Earth AND in otherworld - even when they weren't actively paying attention?

Technically, couldn't SSJ2 be felt in from otherworld - Buu uses instant transmission to track Goku and the others after he blew up Earth?

Why doesn't the Daizenshuu Specifically list Gotenks being stronger than Goku - he and Vegeta ARE NOT interchangeable (regardless of this Base power theory)

Daizenshuu 7 Bio's wrote:
The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

Who are the others - non Saiya-jin? Then it can't be considering "base" forms considering the others can't transform. ( NOTHING - NOTHING - NOTHING stated in any media source will back up your opinion on this matter, and if I'm wrong, please post it.)

Kid Buu used Kaioshin's IT which is not based on ki sensing. It's not the same thing. You have provided no legit proof but keeps repeating what I addressed above. I also like how you ignore me after freeze said I am pakl furthermore proves what I have thought.

[Kamiccolo9]

I also like how you ignore me after freeze said I am pakl furthermore proves what I have thought.

Would you please stop going on about that? Why does it matter what he may or may not call himself on some other forum?

[Amuro Ray]

I also like how you ignore me after freeze said I am pakl furthermore proves what I have thought.

Would you please stop going on about that? Why does it matter what he may or may not call himself on some other forum?

Just ignore him.

[Hitiro]

I'm already fed up with you and the others - post up statements saying exactly this, or you're wrong, that is all there is too it. I do have statement of Piccolo wanting to test Gotenks speed; obviously you don't need to test someone if you're absolutely sure of their capabilities, right? And no - if Gotenks was on or above Vegeta's level, that would make the guidebook wrong - so no matter what, Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta. Case closed.

Again, I'm not saying completely that Gotenks needs to be on Vegeta's level, but Piccolo would not hesitate to say he is not powerful enough to defeat Fat Boo if he wasn't at least close. It is my opinion that Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. If you want to believe that he is under then Gotenks still needs to be at a decent level between SSJ2 Gohan and SSJ2 Vegeta for Piccolo to even entertain the idea of using Gotenks. And also:

Manga > Guidebooks

You can't just go "Well it says so in the guidebooks, so the manga must be wrong. Because I want to believe Goku > everyone else." The manga is the original source so I can't believe you would even say the guidebooks are right and the manga is wrong.

I've also noticed that you like to put Guidebooks > Manga when it suits you. On one occasion on a different thread I explicitly remember you saying a bunch of forum posts saying "SSJ is X" multiplier doesn't hold any credibility with you. In regard to multipliers a person stated are from the SEG which Akira Toriyama oversaw himself. You are clearly only picking at things which suit you and are using them but when somebody else comes along and uses a guidebook and its the most plausible you ignore it to suit your beliefs.

Did I say Piccolo was absolutely sure of Gotenks capabilities? What you seem to not be understanding is Piccolo still entertaining the idea of sending SSJ Gotenks off to fight Fat Boo. If Gotenks didn't have the Ki to put him on par with any SSJ2, even just Gohan, then Piccolo would have come straight out and said that Gotenks doesn't stand a chance and he would have probably put the boys into the RoSaT straight after too.

Listen - I'm doing everything I can not to have a very offensive outburst and comment on your lack of ability to read. The quote clearly says so "THEY CAN FIGHT." "THEY" IS PLURAL, meaning MORE THAN ONE. YOU ARE WRONG. Again, case closed.

Yes, Goku is saying they'd be both alive so they can fight. Does Goku say together? No, he doesn't. You really need to learn to read what I'm saying. Just because Goku is saying they can both fight doesn't mean they will both fight Boo together.

You made all of that up - it's foolishness. Come back when you have something worth my time discussing.

I haven't made up anything. I have provided evidence to support what I'm saying yet you continuously choose to ignore what I'm saying. If you can't learn to accept what other people are saying then I suggest you leave the discussions to people who are capable of evaluating their opinion based on other peoples evidence and altering it accordingly. You just sound like a petulant child who throws a hissy fit when things don't go your way.

I once believed that Pure Boo > Evil Boo. I changed my opinion because people on here made some valid points. You need learn to accept that your opinion may not be right and get on with life.

[TheMightyOzaru]

How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.

[Hitiro]

How about this? Is base Gotenks stronger than base Goku? Yes, yes he is. What does this mean? SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. There is nothing to debate here. Those who actually believe base Gotenks is weaker than base Goku are willingly ignorant.

Exactly, if Base Goku was up against Fat Boo he wouldn't escape alive if he didn't have instant transmission. He would definitely die. The same goes for Vegeta and Gohan. Gotenks made it back to the lookout after having a beating by Fat Boo. Base Gotenks > Base Saiyans. Fact.