How strong was Dabura?

[Zephyr]

So if SSJ2 wasn't explicably laid out in the author's head yet, how would the distinct look of the two states be any more laid out then? I really don't think Toriyama had it as a rule that SSJ2 should always be shown with sparks at least once until Goku vs. Vegeta, at the earliest.

I was referring to in universe. The characters didn't have two separate names for the forms yet until Goku invented them.

Yes, he did show the differences...AFTER the Gohan vs. Dabura fight.

And before it. Both during the Cell Games, and during the TB.

This is the in-universe discussion forum though. What we need is an in-universe explanation as to why Goku wouldn't specify which Cell unless he assumed that Gohan would know which Cell he was referring to.

That was an in-universe explanation. There's no need for Goku to elaborate to Kaioshin how Cell had all of these various forms, and how this specific form of him was equivalent to what Dabura is now. Cell's not there, he's not a major player, Goku doesn't need to give Kaioshin Cell's life story. All he's good for is a passing mention for comparison's sake, and in a passing mention, he really doesn't need to be broken down into his various incarnations. See my point about Dabura being the toughest guy they'd seen since and before Cell in general.

The only one he even came close to exhibiting was A, and even then, that diagnosis is called into question when you consider how eager he was to fight Gotenk's-Buu, of all people, after his fusion with Kibito

Yes. After his fusion with Kibito. When he is no longer the same person. He is now half of that person. I don't see why it would be as much of a stretch, for instance, to have Vegetto be less afraid of needles than Goku.

According to which part of the story? I certainly don't remember him saying that he was a wreck for 3000 years. I mean he still got stuff done like killing Bibidi. Plus, it was Majin Buu that killed his buddies, not Dabura or Babidi or Pui or whoever. So logically, he'd really only be afraid of Buu.

And yet he's still deathly afraid of the likes of PuiPui, despite seeing Gohan's abilities first hand. He knows the Saiyans are ridiculously powerful. He can sense ki. What other explanation could there be (in-universe)? That he's just really, really dumb? Not likely, given the kind of schooling and education we now know the Kaioshin are put through before even being given the job.

And I think that the biggest piece of evidence for Gohan and Dabura fighting at SSj1 level, as opposed to SSj2 level was what Kaboom brought up: Buu's meter wasn't filled up all that much from them fighting. Yet, when Goku and Vegeta trade blows, at SSj2 level, that shit fills up almost immediately.

[Kamiccolo9]

[quote="Kamiccolo9]He perfectly fits with A, and E and F as well. He spent a couple thousand years remembering how useless he was to help out his fellow Kaioshins

According to which part of the story? I certainly don't remember him saying that he was a wreck for 3000 years. I mean he still got stuff done like killing Bibidi. Plus, it was Majin Buu that killed his buddies, not Dabura or Babidi or Pui or whoever. So logically, he'd really only be afraid of Buu.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Seeing as Buu killed the other Kaioshin's thousands of years ago, and Kaioshin still vividly remembers it, I'd definitely say it had an effect on him. One does not simply shrug off their family being slaughtered. Killing Babidi was a necessity, but what after that? He knows that Buu is still alive, and is aware that the seal can be broken. This fact would surely weigh on him. The story itself says nothing about what he went through, so this is a theory, and it fits into Kaioshin's actions in the Buu Arc.
Plus, with him being on the same level of strength as SSJ Gohan, it makes no sense for him to be afraid of Pui-Pui, unless he's behaving irrationally. PTSD explains this perfectly.

[TheGmGoken]

[quote="Kamiccolo9]He perfectly fits with A, and E and F as well. He spent a couple thousand years remembering how useless he was to help out his fellow Kaioshins

According to which part of the story? I certainly don't remember him saying that he was a wreck for 3000 years. I mean he still got stuff done like killing Bibidi. Plus, it was Majin Buu that killed his buddies, not Dabura or Babidi or Pui or whoever. So logically, he'd really only be afraid of Buu.

[/quote][/quote]
Seeing as Buu killed the other Kaioshin's thousands of years ago, and Kaioshin still vividly remembers it, I'd definitely say it had an effect on him. One does not simply shrug off their family being slaughtered. Killing Babidi was a necessity, but what after that? He knows that Buu is still alive, and is aware that the seal can be broken. This fact would surely weigh on him. The story itself says nothing about what he went through, so this is a theory, and it fits into Kaioshin's actions in the Buu Arc.
Plus, with him being on the same level of strength as SSJ Gohan, it makes no sense for him to be afraid of Pui-Pui, unless he's behaving irrationally. PTSD explains this perfectly.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

It really does. As I pointed I many times. Even through it's a hyperbole. Supreme Kai was afraid of anything was a "M" on it. I also notice how he was scarred of Pure Boo and Fat boo the most. Which fit with PTSD because those are the one he remembers.

[Fionordequester]

Alright, first of all, I'm sorry for misinterpreting what you said Zephyr. I thought you meant Akira hadn't made that distinction yet...I would argue that your theory doesn't hold water since Goku himself had already achieved that form, and would therefore be able to name it himself. But whatever, I have recently made a rather stunning revelation, one that I will show by posting ALL of what we see of the fight in the manga, and then explaining how I interpret it.

Spoiler:

This is before we cut back to the Tournament with Mr. Satan and co. And after all that nonsense is done, we come back to this...

Spoiler:

So actually, nobody on this forum can say for sure whether Gohan DID have trouble powering up, or if Goku and Vegeta DID tell him to transform to SSJ2 at some point, or, really, anything. But this also provides us with a convenient way to explain away the lack of lightning.

We don't know just how long Gohan and Dabura have been fighting, so it could be that the lack of lightning was due to Gohan steadily losing steam over the course of the fight.

Spoiler:

Notice how Vegeta says "He's not so strong that we can't beat him" rather than something like "Darn it! What the heck is Gohan doing struggling with such a weakling?!?". I personally think that's somewhat telling.

Spoiler:

Now then, Kaboom says that the meter didn't fill up much during the fight, but Babidi never says that. All he says is that Dabura isn't doing enough, all while very clearly panicked, presumably out of fear of Dabura possibly losing and leaving him helpless. Of course, the arrow is near one of the symbols, presumably the halfway mark (though it's not terribly clear), but we don't know whether that's due to Gohan being too weak, or simply due to Dabura being unable to land many direct hits.

Spoiler:

And that would be the end. So basically, I don't think there's really any way for us to know for sure since we don't know what happened at the beginning. However, if I had to guess, since Gohan is drawn with only one bang and with really spiky hair as opposed to here...

Spoiler:

I think I can at least say that even the artwork doesn't fully support Kaboom's stance.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Again rested SSJ and FPSSJ look different. I really can't comprehend how anyone can think Gohan is a SSJ2 here when he is very very clearly drawn as a SSJ.

[TheGmGoken]

^ At the Budokai when Gohan got mad because of Videl being beaten. He went SSJ. He only had one bang. The design for Gohan's ssj2 form got change as around this time Broly Second movie was coming out.

No... no it doesn't. Please look at the examples provided, there is a clear difference. 1 bang a SSJ2 does not make. That is merely FPSSJ. He was in a rested state when fighting Goten. Look here, he is clearly a SSJ with on bang:
http://i52.tinypic.com/j7agat.png

Spoiler:

Notice here Gohan is resting SSJ state rather than fighting. Unlike above where he is SSJ with one bang.

[Fionordequester]

^ At the Budokai when Gohan got mad because of Videl being beaten. He went SSJ. He only had one bang. The design for Gohan's ssj2 form got change as around this time Broly Second movie was coming out.

No... no it doesn't. Please look at the examples provided, there is a clear difference. 1 bang a SSJ2 does not make. That is merely FPSSJ. He was in a rested state when fighting Goten. Look here, he is clearly a SSJ with on bang:
http://i52.tinypic.com/j7agat.png

How do you know that's not Gohan getting so angry that he was planning on beating up Spopovitch with SSJ2?

[TheGmGoken]

^ At the Budokai when Gohan got mad because of Videl being beaten. He went SSJ. He only had one bang. The design for Gohan's ssj2 form got change as around this time Broly Second movie was coming out.

No... no it doesn't. Please look at the examples provided, there is a clear difference. 1 bang a SSJ2 does not make. That is merely FPSSJ. He was in a rested state when fighting Goten. Look here, he is clearly a SSJ with on bang:
http://i52.tinypic.com/j7agat.png

How do you know that's not Gohan getting so angry that he was planning on beating up Spopovitch with SSJ2?

His aura and facial expression.

[Fionordequester]

His aura and facial expression.

...That face looks pretty SSJ2 to me (what with the bulging vein and all). As for his aura, perhaps we wasn't finished powering up yet?

EDIT: Also, I would even say that Gohan looks more SSJ2 than SSJ1 even in reference to the artwork that was posted above me. SSJ1 seems to have really long, tall spikes of hair while SSJ2 has a series of smaller, but more sharply detailed spikes. And from what I see, Gohan has the smaller spikes.

[TheGmGoken]

His aura and facial expression.

...That face looks pretty SSJ2 to me (what with the bulging vein and all). As for his aura, perhaps we wasn't finished powering up yet?

His ssj2 face is much much much much much much much more Stone Cold and badass than that

[Fionordequester]

His aura and facial expression.

...That face looks pretty SSJ2 to me (what with the bulging vein and all). As for his aura, perhaps we wasn't finished powering up yet?

His ssj2 face is much much much much much much much more Stone Cold and badass than that

Well, even considering the art posted before I posted mine, I would even say that Gohan looks more SSJ2 than SSJ1. SSJ1 seems to have really long, tall spikes of hair while SSJ2 has a series of smaller, but more sharply detailed spikes. And from what I see, Gohan has the smaller spikes.

[TheGmGoken]

His spikes seems just as long as SSJ. He doesn't have 1 small spike. It wasn't all that spiky compared to the one he had with Kibito.

[TheMightyOzaru]

His aura and facial expression.

...That face looks pretty SSJ2 to me (what with the bulging vein and all). As for his aura, perhaps we wasn't finished powering up yet?

EDIT: Also, I would even say that Gohan looks more SSJ2 than SSJ1 even in reference to the artwork that was posted above me. SSJ1 seems to have really long, tall spikes of hair while SSJ2 has a series of smaller, but more sharply detailed spikes. And from what I see, Gohan has the smaller spikes.

You have lost all credibility if you think he's a SSJ2 here. SSJ2 Gohan has lightning, a sharper face, spikier hair, and a sharper aura while a SSJ2 at the Budokai. Here is Gohan after he calms down too:

Spoiler:

[Fionordequester]

His spikes seems just as long as SSJ. He doesn't have 1 small spike. It wasn't all that spiky compared to the one he had with Kibito.

From what I see, SSJ1 is just a bunch of long spikes that reaches up to the top of the hair, while SSJ2 is more like how you'll see rows of people lined up on bleachers in a Football game. And to me, it looks like Gohan's hair spikes are arranged in rows, like a SSJ2.

[Fionordequester]

His aura and facial expression.

...That face looks pretty SSJ2 to me (what with the bulging vein and all). As for his aura, perhaps we wasn't finished powering up yet?

EDIT: Also, I would even say that Gohan looks more SSJ2 than SSJ1 even in reference to the artwork that was posted above me. SSJ1 seems to have really long, tall spikes of hair while SSJ2 has a series of smaller, but more sharply detailed spikes. And from what I see, Gohan has the smaller spikes.

You have lost all credibility if you think he's a SSJ2 here. SSJ2 Gohan has lightning, a sharper face, spikier hair, and a sharper aura while a SSJ2 at the Budokai. Here is Gohan after he calms down too:

Spoiler:

Like I said, perhaps he wasn't finished powering up.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yet he still has 1 bang after he calms down . Seriously, he's a SSJ in his fight with Dabura, it's willful ignorance to suggest he was a SSJ2. It's clear as day that Gohan's a SSJ.

[Fionordequester]

Yet he still has 1 bang after he calms down . Seriously, he's a SSJ in his fight with Dabura, it's willful ignorance to suggest he was a SSJ2. Seriously it's clear as day that Gohan's a SSJ.

I'm not refuting that the new SSJ1 Gohan now has only one bang. What I'm refuting is the idea that he was not at least planning on going SSJ2 at the tournament, and I'm basing that off of the idea that his hair consists of several rows rather than just one single row, like in SSJ1. I mean look at the artwork...



Those red lines are where I've indicated ascending rows of spikes. SSJ1 has just one big row while SSJ2 has several smaller rows. And from what I see, Gohan against both Dabura and Spopovitch has the rows.

[TheGmGoken]

But Gohan didn't have a lot of rows. It was just long spikes like SSJ1. SSJ2 got rows of small spikes as you said. But SSJ Gohan have long spies as shown in the manga panels. If he was SSJ2 against Dabura then his appearance would be the same as his Movie 10(Broly 2nd) appearance as the movie came out at the same time Daubra was about to fight. If he was ssj2 at the tourney he would had have rows of spike like he did for Kibito.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's still his rested state in that picture.

[Son_Gohan]

Seriously, he's a SSJ in his fight with Dabura, it's willful ignorance to suggest he was a SSJ2. Seriously it's clear as day that Gohan's a SSJ.

It's not just suggested in the manga, it's very clearly stated in a guidebook. You're free to create your own theories suggesting the opposite, but at the end of the day it's only your opinion, and holds no higher weight than someone else's interpretations on the same material.