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Vegetto & Gogeta are more likely not included in these cases, but I think that they can be included, just not necessarily.rereboy wrote:Considering him a form of Goku just leads to misconceptions like saying that X character is stronger than any form of Goku so that must include Vegetto.
No, because only Cell transforms with #18's help, #18 doesn't transform. In Vegetto's case, both Goku & Vegeta transform together.Rocketman wrote:So is Perfect Cell a form of #18?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
How do you conclude that? How did #18 not transform together with Cell? Please elaborate.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, because only Cell transforms with #18's help, #18 doesn't transform. In Vegetto's case, both Goku & Vegeta transform together.
Cell literally vomited #18 by getting a kick on his head, and he even managed to transform again without her. So, she was just inside Cell connected, like Gohan, etc are inside Boo.DNA wrote:How do you conclude that? How did #18 not transform together with Cell? Please elaborate.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, because only Cell transforms with #18's help, #18 doesn't transform. In Vegetto's case, both Goku & Vegeta transform together.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Well by that logic aren't Goku and Vegeta kinda inside the same body?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Cell literally vomited #18 by getting a kick on his head, and he even managed to transform again without her. So, she was just inside Cell connected, like Gohan, etc are inside Boo.
For one, this is not the case. Vegetto isn't even the strongest character in his own franchise. He hasn't been since the mid 90's at the very latest, when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta debuted in GT.TenshiGokuu wrote:Vegito is the strongest character in anime.
No, because they merged & transformed together, while Cell absorbed #18 & only he transformed. If you kick Vegetto, he won't vomit Goku or Vegeta, and if you get inside his head, you won't find Goku & Vegeta.DNA wrote:Well by that logic aren't Goku and Vegeta kinda inside the same body?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Well but Gotenks has been shown to separate with a sharp blow. And Vegetto was separated just by being inside Buu. So isn't that the same principle? You can't just change the meanings willy nilly to suit your theory. Which, by the way, makes zero sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, because they merged & transformed together, while Cell absorbed #18 & only he transformed. If you kick Vegetto, he won't vomit Goku or Vegeta, and if you get inside his head, you won't find Goku & Vegeta.DNA wrote:Well by that logic aren't Goku and Vegeta kinda inside the same body?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
How is that different? By removing 18/Gohan, it means they were separated from Cell/Boo, there is no difference at the core of what we are discussing here.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gotenks & Vegetto literally separated, while Cell & Boo had #18 & Gohan removed from their system. Very different things.
What are you talking about? Goku's body merges with Vegeta's body, transforming into Vegetto's body. Cell & Boo absorb others & add them to their system so that their bodies can transform. They are two different things.DNA wrote:How is that different? By removing 18/Gohan, it means they were separated from Cell/Boo, there is no difference at the core of what we are discussing here.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gotenks & Vegetto literally separated, while Cell & Boo had #18 & Gohan removed from their system. Very different things.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
You are saying that combining a solid substance (sugar) into a liquid substance is different from combining two different liquid substances. Cola with orange juice (which sounds disgusting by the way) is a "new" drink according to you, but it is somehow different than sugared coffee? If you add sugar to coffee you've just created a new drink called sugared coffee. It tastes different than non sugared coffee, it is different because it now has liquid sugar in it.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What are you talking about? Goku's body merges with Vegeta's body, transforming into Vegetto's body. Cell & Boo absorb others & add them to their system so that their bodies can transform. They are two different things.
With Cell, it's like adding sugar (#18) into coffee (2nd Form Cell), in order to make the coffee better (Perfect Cell).
With Vegetto, it's like combining orange juice (Goku) with cola (Vegeta), to create a new drink (Vegetto). It's random, I've never drunk such a thing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
You can't remove Gohan from Gohan-Buu and still have Gohan-Buu. You get Gohan and Piccolo-Goten-Trunks-Buu, which is another Buu.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I think you take the examples too literally, and maybe I used bad examples, so let's skip that.
Cell absorbs #18, and then transforms into his perfect form, but he is still Cell, and #18 is kept inside him unchanged, and she can be (literally) removed from Cell. So here, only Cell transforms, and the Perfect form is only Cell's, not #18's.
But with Fusion & Potara, Goku & Vegeta merge together and transform together into a new person, Vegetto. You can't remove Goku or Vegeta from Vegetto, you can only split Vegetto back in two persons, Goku & Vegeta. So here, both Goku & Vegeta transform, and Vegetto is a form that Goku & Vegeta share together.
No, if you remove Gohan from Boo, you still have Boo. They are the same person, except for when he changes significantly (Pure Boo, Fat Boo, and Evil Boo are the main Boos).rereboy wrote:You can't remove Gohan from Gohan-Buu and still have Gohan-Buu. You get Gohan and Piccolo-Goten-Trunks-Buu, which is another Buu.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
They are mostly Buu, but they are not the same Buu. They are not the same character, heck, they don't even have the same personality. Gotenks-Buu for example speaks ways more eloquently and is smarter because he has Piccolo in him.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:No, if you remove Gohan from Boo, you still have Boo. They are the same person, except for when he changes significantly (Pure Boo, Fat Boo, and Evil Boo are the main Boos).rereboy wrote:You can't remove Gohan from Gohan-Buu and still have Gohan-Buu. You get Gohan and Piccolo-Goten-Trunks-Buu, which is another Buu.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
They don't even have the same memories like you claim... Gohan-Buu has Gohan's memories and knowledge in him on top of his own and the others, and the others too. Any other Buu doesn't. He shares the same goals with other Buus because he's mostly Buu, the greater part of him is Buu, that's what's on top. But even his goals can change thanks to who he absorbs. You just have to compare Fat Buu (the original), Gohan-Buu and Kid Buu. They had different goals and what's the difference between them? The people inside them that make Buu into another character.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not refusing to see anything, I just disagree, really. I'm not that stubborn.
Evil Boo gets smarter and talks differently when he absorbs the Z-Senshi, but he is still the same person, with the same memories, and the same goals.
Mr. Boo & Good Boo (if you believe that they are different) have the same personality, and their difference with Innocent Boo is that they don't kill for fun, but Innocent, Good, and Mr. Boo are still the same person.
Pure Boo & S. Kaioshin Boo seem to be both mindless monsters of destruction.
Vegeta is a better person than he was in the past, and Goku is more educated than he was in the past, but they are still the same persons.
Is it that hard to respect that someone else has a different opinion than you? You don't have to keep insinuating he's being stubborn and refusing to see the "truth". DBZ has even stated he simply disagrees with what you're saying and that it's his opinion, you don't have to keep adding in that last line.rereboy wrote:They don't even have the same memories like you claim... Gohan-Buu has Gohan's memories and knowledge in him on top of his own and the others, and the others too. Any other Buu doesn't. He shares the same goals with other Buus because he's mostly Buu, the greater part of him is Buu, that's what's on top. But even his goals can change thanks to who he absorbs. You just have to compare Fat Buu (the original), Gohan-Buu and Kid Buu. They had different goals and what's the difference between them? The people inside them that make Buu into another character.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not refusing to see anything, I just disagree, really. I'm not that stubborn.
Evil Boo gets smarter and talks differently when he absorbs the Z-Senshi, but he is still the same person, with the same memories, and the same goals.
Mr. Boo & Good Boo (if you believe that they are different) have the same personality, and their difference with Innocent Boo is that they don't kill for fun, but Innocent, Good, and Mr. Boo are still the same person.
Pure Boo & S. Kaioshin Boo seem to be both mindless monsters of destruction.
Vegeta is a better person than he was in the past, and Goku is more educated than he was in the past, but they are still the same persons.
I don't know how you can claim that you aren't refusing to see when you argue that every Buu has the same memories and same goals when its obvious that even that changes from Buu to Buu depending on who's inside him.
My bad about Gohan Boo & Gohan's memories (it's 4.30 AM, give me a break). But still, while he does get Gohan's, etc memories, he doesn't have a very different personality than Evil Boo, and he is even officially considered to be the same person. Gohan's memories doesn't make Goku his father in his eyes, or anything close to that. He just gets smarter, and knows what they know. Only Dai Kaioshin had a significant influence in Boo, because his gentle heart with the evil demon didn't mix well, Pure Evil Boo is a separate entity that was expelled from Innocent Boo, and Evil Boo is the combination of Pure Evil & Good Boo. The main Majin Boos are Good Boo (Innocent, Good, Mr.), Pure Evil Boo, Evil Boo (Evil, Gotenks & Piccolo, Piccolo & kids, Gohan & co, Piccolo), and Pure Boo (Pure, S. Kaioshin). That's how they are divided in the Daizenshuu, and I agree with them.rereboy wrote:They don't even have the same memories like you claim... Gohan-Buu has Gohan's memories and knowledge in him on top of his own and the others, and the others too. Any other Buu doesn't. He shares the same goals with other Buus because he's mostly Buu, the greater part of him is Buu, that's what's on top. But even his goals can change thanks to who he absorbs. You just have to compare Fat Buu (the original), Gohan-Buu and Kid Buu. They had different goals and what's the difference between them? The people inside them that make Buu into another character.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
