Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[rereboy]

The difference is that Freeza being hugely suppressed when he arrived on earth was explicitly noted by Gohan. Conversely, we were NEVER given a reason to believe Freeza was no longer suppressing his ki before Trunks killed him.

ie. my opinion actually has in-universe evidence behind it. Yours does not.

Er... No... Gohan felt his Ki when Freeza wasn't fighting and hadn't even seen Trunks yet. Therefore that statement is only relevant to when Freeza is not fighting and irrelevant to when he is fighting.

When you say that I don't have in-universe "evidence", you are basically arguing that fighting with a SSJ is not a in-universe reason for Freeza to increase his power compared to how he is when he is not fighting. I think you just have to think a little on this sentence to realize how that argument doesn't make sense.

And as for the whole "nobody commented that he increased in power", I have already demonstrated that that has as much validity as "nobody commented that he didn't increase in power".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Krillin's great when it comes to sensing Chi, yet he thought Trunks was going to win against Cell. Even Goku says he won't know how strong Cell truly is until he starts fighting seriously and needs Karin to assess Cell's power. You don't need to be a master at sensing Chi to tell someone's not exerting their power.

[kuartus4]

Trunks demonstrated he wasn't good enough at sensing chi to tell when someone was not exerting their full power, unlike Goku. Since Trunks demonstrated this lack of ability, we have reason to conclude he did not use this ability to tell Mecha Frieza wasn't at full power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Again, Freeza is standing there talking and doing nothing. One does not need to be some expert to realize that he's not putting forth all of his power. The series has made it clear that they're only doing that once they begin fighting. Furthermore, if you're going to hold that part against Trunks, then you need to do the same to Krillin and the others who had no idea Cell was capable of much more. Even Goku didn't know Cell was hiding that much power after fighting him in the Cell Games and appears to be shocked when he goes to full-power. Hell, Freeza knows Goku isn't going all-out during their fight on namek and he can't sense power at all. Surely someone that can actually gauge Chi would have better insight than one who can't at all.

My point is that one specific part is not enough to ignore everything else. If you look hard enough, you'll find that nearly everyone efficient at sensing Chi has shown some hiccups throughout the series. Freeza is standing around doing nothing, Gohan says his current level is nothing (the only ones who were mystified were the guys who never actually sensed Freeza), and Trunks tells him he better come at him in full-power. What we can conclude is that Freeza wasn't powered-up or at his highest level.

[Galan007]

Er... No... Gohan felt his Ki when Freeza wasn't fighting and hadn't even seen Trunks yet. Therefore that statement is only relevant to when Freeza is not fighting and irrelevant to when he is fighting.

It tells us that Gohan(along with everyone else present) was closely monitoring Freeza's ki. It tells us that Freeza was greatly suppressed(relative to his Namek-levels) when he arrived on earth. If Gohan noted that Freeza was greatly suppressed, it's utterly nonsensical to act like a sudden, massive spike in Freeza's ki, taking him to > Namek-levels, would have gone entirely unnoticed by everyone present. As it stands, Gohan's comment was never contradicted by anything of substance, therefore I have no reason to doubt its validity.

And as for the whole "nobody commented that he increased in power", I have already demonstrated that that has as much validity as "nobody commented that he didn't increase in power".

You: "King Cold and Trunks didn't mention that Freeza wasn't at full power, therefore Freeza must have been at full power." If that's your alleged 'evidence', then it certainly comes off as a rather silly rationale.

By that line of 'logic':
-King Cold didn't say that Mecha Freeza couldn't access a God form, therefore Freeza must have been capable of accessing a God form.
-#17 didn't say that #18 wasn't capable of absorbing #16, therefore #18 must have been capable of absorbing #16.
-Krillin never said that Yamcha wasn't gay, therefore Yamcha must be gay.
-Etc.

I have in-universe evidence which outright tells us that Freeza was hugely suppressed when he landed on earth. Unless you have in-universe evidence which contrarily states that Freeza was no longer suppressed when Trunks killed him, then Gohan's claim stands as fact.

[rereboy]

It tells us that Gohan(along with everyone else present) was closely monitoring Freeza's ki. It tells us that Freeza was greatly suppressed(relative to his Namek-levels) when he arrived on earth. If Gohan noted that Freeza was greatly suppressed, it's utterly foolish to act like a sudden, massive spike in Freeza's ki, taking him to > Namek-levels, would have gone entirely unnoticed by everyone present. As it stands, Gohan's comment was never contradicted by anything of substance, therefore I have no reason to doubt its validity.

He was paying attention to Freeza's Ki and commenting it at that moment. When Trunks appeared, everyone started to pay more attention to him and unless Freeza reached a power apparently superior or comparable to Trunks' power, there is no need for a dramatic reaction shot of the group saying that Freeza's Ki is as big or bigger than the stranger. Instead on comments of his power, the author chose to just show us how helpless he was against Trunks.

"Utterly foolish" would be for Freeza to not increase is power when fighting with a SSj. That's just downright illogical, with the gang commenting on it or not.

You: "King Cold and Trunks didn't mention that Freeza wasn't at full power, therefore Freeza must have been at full power." If that's your alleged 'evidence', then it certainly comes off as a rather silly rationale.

No, that's basically an example of your logic. I just turned it around on you, first by making you realize that not mentioning that he hadn't increased in power was equally valid, and then by making you realize that its equally weird for Cold to not mention Freeza not going into 100% when he was talking about how Trunks beat Freeza.

You are the one that is assuming stuff from what the characters don't say when various opposite things can be assumed from what they don't say, I'm just turning it around on you to show it that it just as valid to conclude the exact opposite of what you think, demonstrating the weakness of the argument.

I have in-universe evidence which outright tells us that Freeza was hugely suppressed when he landed on earth. Unless you have in-universe evidence which contrarily states that Freeza was no longer suppressed when Trunks killed him, then Gohan's claim stands as fact.

I do, like I've already told you. The fact that it doesn't make sense for Freeza to fight a SSJ with power much inferior to the one he had on Namek, despite bragging that he had increased in power since Namek.

You are basically claiming that, just because we don't have a shot showing someone saying "oh, freeza increased in power" that we must conclude that he didn't increase in power when faced with a SSj that he started fighting with, despite him not increasing in power making absolutely no sense. You are drawing an assumption from something that doesn't warrant any single conclusion, and forcing it to go against simple in-universe logic, like Freeza increasing his power against a SSJ.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Daizenshuu entry on Mecha Freeza:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

I always took this to mean Trunks was simply more powerful than Freeza regardless of the amount of power he gained from his mecha upgrade.

[Kaboom]

Can we all maybe just agree that whatever Freeza's new maximum was, Super Saiyan Trunks and Goku were still stronger than it, and move on?

[Kamiccolo9]

Can we all maybe just agree that whatever Freeza's new maximum was, Super Saiyan Trunks and Goku were still stronger than it, and move on?

Agreed. What does the strength of Mecha Freeza and SSJ Trunks have to do with Beerus' statement anyway?

[Galan007]

He was paying attention to Freeza's Ki and commenting it at that moment. When Trunks appeared, everyone started to pay more attention to him and unless Freeza reached a power apparently superior or comparable to Trunks' power, there is no need for a dramatic reaction shot of the group saying that Freeza's Ki is as big or bigger than the stranger. Instead on comments of his power, the author chose to just show us how helpless he was against Trunks.

"Utterly foolish" would be for Freeza to not increase is power when fighting with a SSj. That's just downright illogical, with the gang commenting on it or not.

No, that's basically an example of your logic. I just turned it around on you, first by making you realize that not mentioning that he hadn't increased in power was equally valid, and then by making you realize that its equally weird for Cold to not mention Freeza not going into 100% when he was talking about how Trunks beat Freeza.

You are the one that is assuming stuff from what the characters don't say when various opposite things can be assumed from what they don't say, I'm just turning it around on you to show it that it just as valid to conclude the exact opposite of what you think, demonstrating the weakness of the argument.

I do, like I've already told you. The fact that it doesn't make sense for Freeza to fight a SSJ with power much inferior to the one he had on Namek, despite bragging that he had increased in power since Namek.

You are basically claiming that, just because we don't have a shot showing someone saying "oh, freeza increased in power" that we must conclude that he didn't increase in power when faced with a SSj that he started fighting with, despite him not increasing in power making absolutely no sense. You are drawing an assumption from something that doesn't warrant any single conclusion, and forcing it to go against simple in-universe logic, like Freeza increasing his power against a SSJ.

My logic is based on in-universe statements/evidence. Yours is not. That is the difference. You are simply assuming(for whatever reason) that Freeza went from being massively suppressed... To more powerful than he was on Namek... Without any sort of evidence to support you other than: "King Cold and Trunks didn't mention that Freeza wasn't at full power, therefore Freeza must have been at full power." Sorry, but not only is that just a silly rationale, but it also opens up the flood gates for us to make any random 'interpretations' we want, and try to sell them as fact. Here's another example: "Goku never said that Raditz couldn't stop time, therefore Raditz could stop time." Yours borders on a no-limits fallacy, and is quite illogical when you actually put some thought into what it implies(see my previous examples.)

Conversely, we have Gohan telling us that Freeza showed up on earth greatly suppressed, and not a single shred of noteworthy(key word) evidence is indicative of him undergoing some massive spike in power prior to his death. But again: I'm even willing to agree with the opinion that Mecha Freeza was tapping 70% of his power on earth, assuming that'd put him nearly on par with 100% organic Freeza. However, nothing is suggestive of him tapping more power than he possessed on Namek... Which is why I think it's rather clear that his 'Mecha power up' was never seen.

Can we all maybe just agree that whatever Freeza's new maximum was, Super Saiyan Trunks and Goku were still stronger than it, and move on?

Fair enough. We are just repeating ourselves anyway.

Agreed. What does the strength of Mecha Freeza and SSJ Trunks have to do with Beerus' statement anyway?

Nothing... Nothing at all.

You started it, though.

[Kamiccolo9]

Agreed. What does the strength of Mecha Freeza and SSJ Trunks have to do with Beerus' statement anyway?

Nothing... Nothing at all.

You started it, though.

Say what now?

[dbgtFO]

Agreed. What does the strength of Mecha Freeza and SSJ Trunks have to do with Beerus' statement anyway?

Nothing... Nothing at all.

You started it, though.

Say what now?

I think he's referring to your top comment on page 8

[Kamiccolo9]

I think he's referring to your top comment on page 8

Ah, well, Freezamite and Hitiro have been going at it throughout this whole thread, so it wasn't me that started anything.

[rereboy]

My logic is based on in-universe statements/evidence.

Your "evidence" only tells you how strong Freeza was when he was not fighting, and the evidence ends there. Everything else is your personal assumption on the lack of people commenting on whether he increased in power or not and what it means. Like I demonstrated, that lack of commentary can easily be assumed to mean the opposite, making any real conclusion impossible from just that.

You are simply assuming(for whatever reason) that Freeza went from being massively suppressed... To more powerful than he was on Namek...

The "whatever" reason was Freeza saying that he was more powerful than in Namek and the fact that he started fighting a SSJ. Yeah... Seems like a good reason to think that Freeza would increase his power compared to before to me.

However, unlike you, I don't claim that this is FACT. Its just my opinion. To be fact, there had to be no room for interpretation.

Without any sort of evidence to support you

Actually, my "evidence" is that it would be illogical fro Freeza to not increase his power while fighting a SSJ. I don't support my opinion on anything that the characters didn't say. What they don't say simply isn't evidence of anything. I simply gave you those examples to demonstrate to you that your assumption, which is based on what characters didn't say in that context, can be interpreted in various ways with the same validity as you interpretation, making any real conclusion basically impossible just from that.

[dbgtFO]

I think he's referring to your top comment on page 8

Ah, well, Freezamite and Hitiro have been going at it throughout this whole thread, so it wasn't me that started anything.

Haha, true, but freezamite's post was so full of points, that there wasn't any specific thing to focus on and most users probably didn't want to go near it anyway. Your comment brought up a specific point of contention and people then started responding and that's what's been the debate this past page, so yeah

[Kamiccolo9]

I think he's referring to your top comment on page 8

Ah, well, Freezamite and Hitiro have been going at it throughout this whole thread, so it wasn't me that started anything.

Haha, true, but freezamite's post was so full of points, that there wasn't any specific thing to focus on and most users probably didn't want to go near it anyway. Your comment brought up a specific point of contention and people then started responding and that's what's been the debate this past page, so yeah

Well, that makes it less a case of me starting anything, and more of case of people not bothering to read what was written earlier in the thread

[Galan007]

Your "evidence" only tells you how strong Freeza was when he was not fighting, and the evidence ends there. Everything else is your personal assumption on the lack of people commenting on whether he increased in power or not and what it means. Like I demonstrated, that lack of commentary can easily be assumed to mean the opposite, making any real conclusion impossible from just that.

The "whatever" reason was Freeza saying that he was more powerful than in Namek and the fact that he started fighting a SSJ. Yeah... Seems like a good reason to think that Freeza would increase his power compared to before to me.

However, unlike you, I don't claim that this is FACT. Its just my opinion. To be fact, there had to be no room for interpretation.

Actually, my "evidence" is that it would be illogical fro Freeza to not increase his power while fighting a SSJ. I don't support my opinion on anything that the characters didn't say. What they don't say simply isn't evidence of anything. I simply gave you those examples to demonstrate to you that your assumption, which is based on what characters didn't say in that context, can be interpreted in various ways with the same validity as you interpretation, making any real conclusion basically impossible just from that.

I like how you cherry-picked a few sentences from my post and responded exclusively to them, as though there was no additional context to be had. I don't blame you, though... There's really no intelligible way to defend the silly rationale you were trying to sell.

Well, that makes it less a case of me starting anything, and more of case of people not bothering to read what was written earlier in the thread

It's easier for me to just blame you for starting it, then it is to read through multiple walls-o-text, lol.

[miguelnuva1]

Mecha Frieza has to at least equal Frieza on Namek for the point of introducing Trunks and the Androids to make sense.

[rereboy]

I like how you cherry-picked a few sentences from my post and responded exclusively to them, as though there was no additional context to be had. I don't blame you, though... There's really no intelligible way to defend the silly rationale you were trying to sell.

My answer fully addresses the main points in discussion. My highlights of your post is just to make reading easier. That way, my post is less text-heavy while still addressing the main points in discussion.

However, despite the fact that its impressive that you managed to imply I'm unintelligent, silly and a seller of unintelligent and silly things in a single sentence, I will have to insist you change your tone in further discussion, otherwise I will have to report your posts for unbecoming behavior.

Mecha Freeza has to at least equal Freeza on Namek for the point of introducing Trunks and the Androids to make sense.

Yup. It simply wouldn't make sense for Freeza to fight Trunks with a power lower than that.

[Galan007]

However, despite the fact that its impressive that you managed to imply I'm unintelligent, silly and a seller of unintelligent and silly things in a single sentence, I will have to insist you change your tone in further discussion, otherwise I will have to report your posts for unbecoming behavior.

1.) I never said you were unintelligent. I said there was no intelligible way to defend your initial rationale.
2.) Your initial rationale was: "Freeza wasn't suppressed, because Cold never said he wasn't using his full power." Yes, I do believe that logic is silly, because it allows us to overlay our own personal opinions onto a scene, even when NO evidence supports said opinions. It's no different than: "Goku never said that Raditz couldn't stop time, therefore Raditz could stop time." Again, that sort of logic borders on a no-limits fallacy, and no-limits fallacies are silly. If a no-limits fallacy wasn't your intention, then great! I'm just describing to you how it looks to me.

You shouldn't take things so personally. I haven't insulted you any more than you have insulted me(if you perceived any of my previous responses as insults, it was unintentional on my end), so I don't know why you're back-handedly threatening me via the report function..? This is an internet-based discussion forum. I am allowed to have a different opinion than you.