Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Desassina]

Hitiro, you would have to be pretty negligent to ignore my post where I debunked whatever roundabout theory about Goku judging Kid Buu's power. It wasn't like that, but if you ignore it, MisterGuyMan has my permission to quote that part anytime he wants. I mean, it's part of the manga and Herms' translations, after all.

Only Vegeta's comment can be attributed to his size. Not only would it be out of character for Goku to judge someone based on their physical appearance (if he can sense their ki), but his comment directly ties into what he commented on earlier when he and Vegeta were inside Buu, an earlier comment regarding Buu's strength and ki level.

Except that Goku did, when he said that Buu turned into that awfully bulky guy, before following through Vegeta's comment on Buu's transformation, which for Vegeta was about size.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P1.3
Context: evil Boo continues to revert to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “…H-hey…He’s changed into an awfully bulky guy…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

[rereboy]

It's just not their words, it's the context.

Even if somehow Goku and Vegeta got momentarily fooled by Kid Buu's look and size, they never, even after fighting him, expressed any other opinion besides Buu being now at a level where they could actually fight him and achieve victory (and before that Goku had stated they would just get killed by him (Super Buu)).

Even after Goku fought Kid Buu extensively, he was still convinced that he could kill him and all he needed was the chance to concentrate his energy.

[Desassina]

It's just not their words, it's the context. Even if somehow Goku and Vegeta got momentarily fooled by Kid Buu's look and size, they never, even after fighting him, changed their minds about Buu being now at a level where they could actually fight him and achieve victory (and before Goku had stated that they would just get killed by him (Super Buu)).

Ok, let's not turn this into a Kid Buu vs Super Buu debate, but Super Buu would only kill Goku and Vegeta as two unfused SSJ, because that's the state that they were in. I'm not even considering the "size of a flea" theory, because there's no telling if Super Buu's power got scaled down as well. The fact is that we don't need to go the extent of mentioning transformations that weren't being used, much less making a distinction between who can and who cannot fight Buu, given that they were referring to themselves as "we", and that Goku had SSJ3, while Vegeta had only SSJ2 (still weaker than Super Buu). We would need to bring more than what is shown, and that's not needed.

[rereboy]

Ok, let's not turn this into a Kid Buu vs Super Buu debate, but Super Buu would only kill Goku and Vegeta as two unfused SSJ, because that's the state that they were in.

That's like saying that Goku would say that Dabura would just kill him if he fought him, since Goku commented on Dabura's abilities while he was at his base power.

Instead, Goku, despite being on his base state, was not really impressed by Dabura and stated that he had already fought somebody about as strong as him. He does this because he knows fully well that he fought Dabura he wouldn't be limited to just fighting him in his base state. It doesn't make sense to think that Goku wouldn't do the same regarding Super Buu. Obviously, Goku is thinking about his top power.

I'm not even considering the "size of a flea" theory, because there's no telling if Super Buu's power got scaled down as well. The fact is that we don't need to go the extent of mentioning transformations that weren't being used, much less making a distinction between who can and who cannont fight Buu, given that they were referring to them as "we", and that Goku had SSJ3, while Vegeta had only SSJ2 (still weaker than Super Buu).

I don't really understand what's your point here.

[Desassina]

I don't really understand what's your point here.

This is why I don't pick at posts out of their context. My point still stands, we don't need to bring in any more than what is shown. Super Buu said that they can't defeat him as they are, which points to two unfused SSJ, or the "size of fleas", but to each his own.

[rereboy]

I don't really understand what's your point here.

This is why I don't pick at posts out of their context. My point still stands, we don't need to bring in any more than what is shown. Super Buu said that they can't defeat him as they are, which points to two unfused SSJ.

Dragon Ball is 99.9% of times pretty straightforward. Buu is talking about what is obvious, the fact that they are now unfused. Arguing that by that he actually meant them, not just as unfused, but them as just in their SSJ forms, as in that he might think differently if they were in another transformation, is just convoluted and way too literal.

Also, I would appreciate it if you kept insinuations like "this is why I don't pick at posts out of their context" to yourself. This is supposed to be a good community, don't contribute for that to change. If I post answers only to portions of what was being debated, it's merely because I thought it was worthwhile to answer to just that, and because I'm picking at posts out of context. And if I don't understand what you meant, it's because I don't think your sentences were clear enough regarding their meaning, and not anything else.

[Desassina]

I don't really understand what's your point here.

This is why I don't pick at posts out of their context. My point still stands, we don't need to bring in any more than what is shown. Super Buu said that they can't defeat him as they are, which points to two unfused SSJ.

Dragon Ball is 99.9% of times pretty straightforward. Buu is talking about what is obvious, the fact that they are now unfused. Arguing that by that he actually meant, not just unfused, but them as just in their SSJ forms, as in that he might think differently if they were in another transformation, is just convoluted and way too literal.

I've been reading some previous threads, and I do think that convoluted is something that describes fan theories better than the official material, or the faithful translations of said material, if Viz wasn't enough. Goku and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu unfused and as SSJ (or SSJ2), but Goku could as a SSJ3. The flow of the conversation changed when they realized that they were small, and at no instance would SSJ3 Goku beat Super Buu from the inside, but like I said, we would have to make a distinction between Goku and Vegeta for whoever Super Buu is referring to as "you", when they were referring to themselves as "we". It's much easier to consider that fusion was still a thing, because it's stated throughout their journey inside his body, more so than Goku's last resort.

[rereboy]

I've been reading some previous threads, and I do think that convoluted is something that describes fan theories better than the official material, or the faithful translations of said material, if Viz wasn't enough. Goku and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu unfused and as SSJ (or SSJ2), but Goku could as a SSJ3. The flow of the conversation changed when they realized that they were small, and at no instance would SSJ3 Goku beat Super Buu inside of his own body, but like I said, we would have to make a distinction between Goku and Vegeta for whoever Super Buu is referring to as "you". It's much easier to consider that fusion was still a thing, because it's stated throughout their journey inside his body, more so than Goku's last resort.

The fact that other people have theories even more convoluted than yours is not really an argument in favor of yours. When there's a more straightforward answer that fits at least as well, if not better, than the more convoluted answer, the more convoluted answer is "in trouble".

And in this case, Super Buu being simply stronger than SSJ3 Goku is a more straightforward answer and it even fits better.

You can adhere to any theory that you want, and it's possible to explain things pretty much any way we want as long as we make our theories complex and convoluted enough, but they will hardly ever be more convincing to others than the more straightforward answers that fit at least as well as them.

[Desassina]

I went back with my post and deleted it. I realized that this would be off topic, and that I was only addressing a dogma by Darkprince and Hitiro, and many others as well. If you think that it's unfair that your world got picked apart just now, think about the years that I had to put up with people pissing on my favourite movie, Wrath of Dragon, just because their Gohan wasn't the strongest. Think about people's reaction to DB Super because of Gohan as well, and how I have to deal with "DB Super is ****" every single episode due to people's fandom. I'm not unfair, but people are selfish.

[Darkprince410]

I've been reading some previous threads, and I do think that convoluted is something that describes fan theories better than the official material, or the faithful translations of said material, if Viz wasn't enough. Goku and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu unfused and as SSJ (or SSJ2), but Goku could as a SSJ3. The flow of the conversation changed when they realized that they were small, and at no instance would SSJ3 Goku beat Super Buu from the inside, but like I said, we would have to make a distinction between Goku and Vegeta for whoever Super Buu is referring to as "you", when they were referring to themselves as "we". It's much easier to consider that fusion was still a thing, because it's stated throughout their journey inside his body, more so than Goku's last resort.

There's literally no reason that Goku would make a comment about him and Vegeta not being able to beat Evil Buu, while teamed up, if he wasn't taking into account his strongest form. The only reasons he had ever avoided trying to use Ssj3/try to defeat Buu beforehand weren't valid at the time, because:

1) Vegeta knew about Super Saiya-jin 3, and Goku knew that he knew about it - People claim that part of the reason Goku never used Ssj3 around Vegeta was due to his pride, that Goku knew that Vegeta had went to such lengths to "even things" between them, and would likely have what was left of his pride dashed upon realizing Goku could get 4x stronger. Now that he knew that Vegeta knew about it, there'd be no reason to refrain from using it any more.

2) Goku's alive, and there's no one apart from him and Vegeta to fight Buu - Goku specifically established, when he was dead, that he didn't try to actually kill Fat Buu because it wasn't his place to do so anymore, and that it was up to the next generation to protect the Earth. However, with Goku alive and Gohan and the boys incapacitated (with no idea when they'd regain consciousness), it was all up to Goku and Vegeta to fight Buu. In fact, Goku specifically accepted Rou Kaioushin's life so he could return to the fight.

So Goku had no reason to hold back or refrain from using Super Saiya-jin 3, so if he were able to beat Evil Buu with it, he wouldn't have made that comment. Besides, his comment was specifically about them not being able to beat Evil Buu after they left, so there's no reason for him to only make reference or judge their odds based on their strength inside him.

[Hitiro]

Hitiro, you would have to be pretty negligent to ignore my post where I debunked whatever roundabout theory about Goku judging Kid Buu's power. It wasn't like that, but if you ignore it, MisterGuyMan has my permission to quote that part anytime he wants. I mean, it's part of the manga and Herms' translations, after all.

At the time I was on my mobile phone. So no. I didn't ignore your post. I just didn't see it. And your post debunks nothing. An observation about his looks does not mean he was basing Boo's strength purely on physical appearance. Prior to the statement you quoted he had already mentioned that Boo's Ki had increased in this form. It is clear that he wasn't just using physical appearance.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

So why is it that Goku is actively sensing Boo here but when he turns into Pure Boo he foregoes all that and just decides to base the characters strength purely on physical appearance? Furthermore. Goku was not trying to shrink Boo. He was trying to diminish his power up until this point so that they could manage something. Hence the "We did it![Shrunk Boo's power] This way, we might be able to manage something."

[Speedster]

How do you know he used kaioken? there is nothing to indicate that.

Piccolo explained to Gero that he can increase his power level in short bursts - which is what Kaioken was described doing. If it wasn't Kaioken it was something similar replicated by Piccolo.

Humans -> KO'd cold
Goku -> KO'd, barely conscious
Piccolo -> conscious and hurt but standing
Vegeta / trunks -> fighting back

This can simply be interpreted that Piccolo was stronger than the humans and weaker than the Super Saiyans. No one argues the opposite. Also Piccolo standing means very little actually as he was never shown been attacked in the same way the humans or SSJ Vegeta/Trunks were shown to be attacked. For all we know the events were concurrent and also taking place in a very short amount of time. Remember these fighters are supposedly moving super-fast and we are just seeing them in relative slow-motion. So it is perfectly possible for Piccolo and a Cell Jr to stand idle staring at each other for 0.1sec in-between the first and second panel that Piccolo is shown. And in the first panel where Piccolo is shown fighting one Cell Jr Toriyama spoke through his character (Cell) and said that only Vegeta and Trunks could hold their own. Even them were shown struggling greatly against the Cell Jrs who were also clearly toying with them. Piccolo who was mocked by Vegeta when Piccolo came out of RoSaT and before entering for second time was far from SSJ1 Vegeta’s level.

Tenshinhan was amazed by sick Goku, Vegeta AND piccolo, and thought that now he can never surpass them. Piccolo was also not amazed by SS goku's performance vs #19, when Tenshinhan said he's leagues above "us".

Goku was sick. Piccolo and Gohan were not impressed by Goku’s power compared to what they saw him being capable of producing when healthy. And Tenshinhan being impressed means nothing. We know that 30-40% increase in power level is considered a big increase. So it is perfectly possible sick SSJ1 Goku to be about 1.75-2x his base and the relative increase to be considered huge. Remember first and second form Freeza? Anyway say base Goku is 50 million and sick SSJ1 Goku around 90 million and full power 250 million. #19 and #20 were about 75 million initially with no-one’s energy absorbed. #19 absorbed Goku's Kamehameha and sucked his life-force as SSJ1. So he raised his power while Goku's decreased. Then Vegeta would need to use a higher percentage of his own power to defeat 19.

And if someone should be able to use KK, it must be Tenshinhan, he spent longest time at kaio.

Tenshinhan spent his time on Kaio's planet developing the shin-kikoho (neo tri beam) which was able to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell.

Goku never teaches his techniques to anyone. KK , spirit bomb , IT etc.

Still he taught Gohan the Kamehameha and how to turn SSJ1, he taught the kids the fusion dance and how to go SSJ3. Besides Piccolo like the other Z fighters are geniuses who can copy an attack just by watching it performed once or explained very little. It is perfectly possible that after 3 years of training alongside Goku Piccolo could replicate the move in his own way.

Both vegeta and piccolo knew that vegeta couldn't beat Gero. The same vegeta 1-shotted 19 POST ABSORPTION from vegeta. So, Gero >> #19 Post vegeta absorption. Then even stronger gero was 2-shotted by piccolo. That alone proves he's superior to 50% vegeta.

First I would advise you to make better use of pronouns in some of your sentences and paragraphs. You originally said this:

It follows from incorrect assumption on Piccolo. You are forgetting that even Super Saiyan Vegeta, who was at least 50% of his power, couldn't do anything to Gero while piccolo could one-shot him

Anyway.

You are forgetting many things here. First of all by absorbing Goku's and Vegeta's power #19 increased his power. At the same time Vegeta's decreased. We do not know what was the remaining percentage of Vegeta's own power level after his fight with #19. Not only he had his energy absorbed but at the end he must have fired a pretty big blast to destroy #19 (who had a percentage of Vegeta's and Goku's power absorbed). So it could have well dropped to 10% of his full SSJ1 power. Piccolo was at 20% of SSJ1 full power Vegeta and base Vegeta was 25% if SSJ1 is a 4x multiplier. Also energy absorption is quite ambiguous since it is not quite clear what the effect of having your energy absorbed exactly is. Does it lower your energy reserves (stamina), reduces your power level (strength) or both? My bet is that it affects both so it is possible that even a 50% Vegeta felt he couldn't face Gero due to his stamina levels being too low rather than his strength level being inadequate.

Knocking means nothing. Piccolo kicked 50% Freeza away from goku, so does that mean he's superior to Freeza?

Piccolo said that he put all of his power into that kick and as a result he wouldn’t be able to help any longer. Vegeta’s kick on the other hand was a regular kick – after that he turned into SSJ and beat the shit out of #19 (a #19 who absorbed Goku’s energy plus the Kamehameha).

I'll solve this issue.

Thanks for your offer, but no thanks.

And this gohan was weaker than goten-trunks? Or if he was even comparable to them, then why didn't kids fight when unfused? They can go SS. You are forgetting that SS gohan was portrayed superior to SS gotenks, i.e. SS3 goku level.

SSJ1 Gotenks is nowhere near SSJ3 Goku.

Beerus said he found Freeza "Annoying"

You didn't counter anything here. You said that if Beerus knew about Freeza’s potential he would kill him or take him for a playmate. And I explained to you that Beerus saw Freeza even in his Golden form and he didn't take any action against him neither did he take him for a “playmate”.

Dabura is idiot. He thought pui pui could take all saiyans, didn't he? He and babidi also thought the same energy can be equal to 50% of buu. He also can't sense ki, he needs devices to measure it so his statement is useless.

Sure everyone is an idiot! Surpeme Kai is an idiot, Vegeta is an idiot, #18 is an idiot, Dabura is an idiot, Toriyama is an idiot. Why some people can't just accept the fact that the original author speaking through his characters and their actions makes it blatantly obvious that base Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan)>Piccolo and #18? I mean seriously! It is not THAT hard to see!

Dragon Ball is 99.9% of times pretty straightforward.

Indeed Dragonball is pretty straightforward! So when Dabura says that 3 fighters have great powers and he doesn't count Piccolo amongst them it means that Piccolo is weaker compared to those 3 fighters (base Goku, Vegeta and Gohan). And when the Kaio-shin who can one shot Freeza is impressed by base Goku and base Vegeta it means that they are stronger than Freeza. And when Vegeta is confident he can beat anyone in his base it means that base Vegeta could beat Piccolo and #18 who were participants in the tournament. And when base Goten/Trunks can keep their own against #18 it means that they are within the same order of magnitude as #18. That is the straightforward thing to imply. Any other explanation is convoluted.

The same supreme kai who sensed SS2 gohan. Either you want to say base goku > SS2 gohan, or your argument is a fallacy

Supreme Kai though said that the power he sensed from SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament was not his full power. We also know for a fact that full power SSJ2 Gohan was much stronger than the Kaioshins as 14 generations of (Eastern) Kaioshins all failed to free the Z sword. Also the Supreme Kai backed off when SSJ1 Goku threaten to blast him in the tournament when he tried to stop Goku and Vegeta from fighting. And something that is often overlooked is this: In the training sequence of Goku and Gohan with the Z sword the Supreme Kai gives to Goku to throw the Katchin cube. If the Supreme Kai was stronger than base Goku you would expect him to throw the cube instead.

[Desassina]

Well, roundabout explanations given, by none other than Hitiro and Darkprince, so I guess I'll have to concede, if I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

"You're right, I'm wrong. Sorry if I misunderstood." - my only quote on Kanzenshuu, ever. Let's move on to Base Saiyans and Freeza folks, nothing to see here.

[rereboy]

Indeed Dragonball is pretty straightforward! So when Dabura says that 3 fighters have great powers and he doesn't count Piccolo amongst them it means that Piccolo is weaker compared to those 3 fighters (base Goku, Vegeta and Gohan). And when the Kaio-shin who can one shot Freeza is impressed by base Goku and base Vegeta it means that they are stronger than Freeza. And when Vegeta is confident he can beat anyone in his base it means that base Vegeta could beat Piccolo and #18 who were participants in the tournament. And when base Goten/Trunks can keep their own against #18 it means that they are within the same order of magnitude as #18. That is the straightforward thing to imply. Any other explanation is convoluted.

Being straightforward doesn't mean that it won't have plotholes and situations that can only be properly explained with a more complex theory than usual. That is why I said 99.9% straightforward. In any case, you entirely missed the point of my post, which was the following: when there actually exists a more straightforward answer that makes at least as much sense and fits at least as well as a more convoluted answer, the more straightforward answer will always be more convincing since Dragon Ball is pretty straightforward in its nature. You didn't address this at all.

I went back with my post and deleted it. I realized that this would be off topic, and that I was only addressing a dogma by Darkprince and Hitiro, and many others as well. If you think that it's unfair that your world got picked apart just now, think about the years that I had to put up with people pissing on my favourite movie, Wrath of Dragon, just because their Gohan wasn't the strongest. Think about people's reaction to DB Super because of Gohan as well, and how I have to deal with "DB Super is ****" every single episode due to people's fandom. I'm not unfair, but people are selfish.

I don't understand how anyone would think it would be "unfair" or how anyone's world would "be picked apart". This part of the forum is to discuss the inner workings of the DB universe. People are bound to have different ideas about certain things. We read/listen to those ideas and we state what we think, state if we agree or not, we dismiss the ones that simply don't make sense to us, and state why. We might get some new ideas or knowledge from it, even change our mind, or not. That's all.

[Desassina]

I don't see understand how anyone would think it would be "unfair" or how anyone's world would "be picked apart". This part of the forum is to discuss the inner workings of the DB universe. People are bound to have different ideas about certain things. We read/listen to those ideas and we state what we think, state if we agree or not, we dismiss the ones that simply don't make sense to us, and state why. We might get some new ideas or knowledge from it, even change our mind, or not. That's all.

No, that's not all. How can anyone have a place in a discussion forum if one side is just going to stick to the most roundabout theories to explain what is better told by statements and feats, infect most people with how emotional and appealing to the senses their logic is, and then exclude anyone who thinks otherwise, even if by accident? Would it be wrong for Darkprince to come out and say: "Oh, I was wrong about that, I must have not paid attention to that"; instead of just inflating his ego? (this is just one example) So yeah, don't come to me with pretty talk that this is a civilized forum: most people are on a rush to have the most snarky responses and retorts, steam and sweat by typing ferociously on the keyboard, even if they come out calm and collected, which they aren't. At least I'm being honest with the tone I'm speaking with. This section of the forum is the most awkward to discuss in, and I think I'm going to ignore it from now on. Oh, if only people didn't help spread more lies...

[Darkprince410]

No, that's not all. How can anyone have a place in a discussion forum if one side is just going to stick to the most roundabout theories to explain what is better told by statements and feats, infect most people with how emotional and appealing to the senses their logic is, and then exclude anyone who thinks otherwise, even if by accident? Would it be wrong for Darkprince to come out and say: "Oh, I was wrong about that, I must have not paid attention to that"; instead of just inflating his ego? (this is just one example) So yeah, don't come to me with pretty talk that this is a civilized forum: most people are on a rush to have the most snarky responses and retorts, steam and sweat by typing ferociously on the keyboard, even if they come out calm and collected, which they aren't. At least I'm being honest with the tone I'm speaking with. This section of the forum is the most awkward to discuss in, and I think I'm going to ignore it from now on. Oh, if only people didn't help spread more lies...

If I were given facts and legitimate evidence that contradicted my views on the matter, then yes, I would admit I was wrong. I'm not above admitting I was wrong if I'm shown tangible evidence to prove that my side of the argument is incorrect. That being said, I think your attitude toward this is the wrong way to go about things, accusing us of trying to spread lies or "ignoring facts" just to inflate our egos.

With the Dragon Ball franchise, the simplest way of looking at something is almost always the correct way of looking at it, and if it needs to be looked at from a different perspective, we're given the necessary information to go about that.

When it comes to Goku's statement about Evil Buu, the simplest way of looking at it is that he can't beat Evil Buu on his own with Vegeta's help once they leave. There's no "Oh, he's only meaning their Ssj or Ssj2 form" or anything like that. Just a simple and straightforward statement of he can't do that with anything at his disposal.

When it comes to Gohan's donation to the genki dama, we have the name of the technique, we have Goku's specific statement asking for genki, and we have Toriyama's own description of ki and its elements to make it clear that Gohan is only donating a single element of his ki (the genki) and not his total ki, thus why it wasn't strong enough to beat Pure Buu.

When it comes to Beerus's statement about Goku, we have zero contradiction from North Kaiou or Goku in the two different instances we've had that scene given to us (BoG and Super), so there's zero reason to consider it an error or otherwise consider it an invalid "fact".

[Desassina]

With the Dragon Ball franchise, the simplest way of looking at something is almost always the correct way of looking at it, and if it needs to be looked at from a different perspective, we're given the necessary information to go about that.

When it comes to Goku's statement about Evil Buu, the simplest way of looking at it is that he can't beat Evil Buu on his own with Vegeta's help once they leave. There's no "Oh, he's only meaning their Ssj or Ssj2 form" or anything like that. Just a simple and straightforward statement of he can't do that with anything at his disposal.

Before Buu appears inside his stomach:
- let us consider fusion, because we can't beat him like this if we go outside - the simplest explanation is that "this", at this point, doesn't refer to their size, but only their unfused state (when they are both SSJ). We don't need to go any more complex than this and mention their exclusive transformations, because they were not shown. Fusion is what Goku had in mind all along, which doesn't rule out that Goku could use SSJ3 and beat Super Buu, because by the time he realized that his power was scaled down, none of that would matter.

However, that's not what I was pointing out as you being wrong. It was the long running dogma that Goku had only been judging Buu by his Ki, when there is a blatant change of subject after he mentions that Buu "turned into an awfully bulky guy". You simply ignored that, and that's what confuses me.

[rereboy]

No, that's not all. How can anyone have a place in a discussion forum if one side is just going to stick to the most roundabout theories to explain what is better told by statements and feats, infect most people with how emotional and appealing to the senses their logic is, and then exclude anyone who thinks otherwise, even if by accident? Would it be wrong for Darkprince to come out and say: "Oh, I was wrong about that, I must have not paid attention to that"; instead of just inflating his ego? (this is just one example) So yeah, don't come to me with pretty talk that this is a civilized forum: most people are on a rush to have the most snarky responses and retorts, steam and sweat by typing ferociously on the keyboard, even if they come out calm and collected, which they aren't. At least I'm being honest with the tone I'm speaking with. This section of the forum is the most awkward to discuss in, and I think I'm going to ignore it from now on. Oh, if only people didn't help spread more lies...

If a person just sticks to things that don't make sense to us (or make less sense), we just dismiss them just like I stated in my post, and state that as the reason for it. So, yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Hitiro]

When it comes to Beerus's statement about Goku, we have zero contradiction from North Kaiou or Goku in the two different instances we've had that scene given to us (BoG and Super), so there's zero reason to consider it an error or otherwise consider it an invalid "fact".

Exactly. Ultimately this statement serves no purpose if it wasn't directed at the audience with the intent of saying a Base Saiyan can't beat 100% Freeza. Because it would be clearly obvious, if Goku was stronger than Freeza, that suppression could and would allow him to appear as though he couldn't beat Freeza. Thus this statement serves no justification in being said if it were on about a suppressed Goku being weaker than 100% Freeza. I'm also not about to believe that in the development of this line that the staff all sat around a table and decided that they wanted to put in this line for us to assume their intent was to suggest a suppressed Goku is weaker than 100% Freeza. If they wanted to establish that the intent of this line was based around a suppressed Goku being weaker than 100% Freeza then they would have made it clear in the dialogue as they have done in every other instance such as this. Akira Toriyama's work included.

[Desassina]

If a person just sticks to things that don't make sense to us (or make less sense), we just dismiss them just like I stated in my post, and state that as the reason for it. So, yeah, that's pretty much it.

Then I'll ignore what makes the least sense as well. The problem is that I can post my thoughts and I know that they won't go unquoted, but I don't have the patience to indulge in more of these discussions. People can't live without making the others seem wrong, and that's what sticks out in a rather "civilized" community. That's all.