Gohan at the Cell Games

[TheUltimateVegito]

Of course he did. When Vegeta showed him up, Cell screamed like a kid who couldn't get his way.

So you're telling me Cell didn't believe he was the strongest before he hosted the Cell Games?

Is that what you think being insecure means?

That what makes Cell such a great character, he has the personality of other characters (Mainly Frieza and a bit of King Piccolo) not only Goku, but his Goku side wants to test his limits at a tournament. Goku cared about testing his limits not only winning, much like Cell. Cell never stated he wanted to prove he's superior because he already believed he's superior, all he wanted to do was test his limits.

I think Cell is much more like Vegeta than he is Freeza. Freeza has a very different motivation. Cell did want to win, and not only that, he wants to hurt people. We see that in his actions. He takes perverse pleasure in hurting people. Cell does believe he's superior to everyone, but unlike Goku and like Vegeta, he wants everyone to know it. When someone comes along that hurts his self perception, he loses it. Goku doesn't lose his temper when there's someone stronger than him. He gets excited.

Cell did lose it when he bested him, but I don't think that means he's insecure. It just means he can't stand his ego being shattered.

Yes he has his Vegeta side too (Which adds to his character) but his Perfect Form is mainly a mix between Goku and Frieza with his Frieza side's cold/sadistic personality yet elegant/polite mannerisms cancelling out the Goku goofiness/light-heartedness and his Goku side desire to test him limits cancelling out his Frieza side desire to conquer the universe. Like I said, there's nothing that shows Cell wanted everyone to know he's the strongest, he broadcast the announcement of the Cell Games on TV only to gather as much competitors for the Cell Games as possible. Even if Cell wanted everyone to know he's the strongest how would that stop Gohan from thinking the Cell Games is pointless? Cell already bested who he believed to be the best (Goku) and besting Gohan is unnecessary because he already proved he's the best by beating Goku.

[ABED]

That's what being insecure is or at least it is one of the ways it manifests itself. If your reaction to being bested is to throw a tantrum or try to destroy the world, you're insecure. What do you think being insecure means?

Vegeta also has a cold sadistic side. It's a dominant trait of his, and he wants to test his limits. Everything shows that Cell wants to prove to everyone that he's the strongest. It's his MO. If Cell was just advertising, he wouldn't have felt the need to kill all those people in the buildings just to make his point. That sort of destructiveness and coldhearted mass murder needs to be stopped. You can't stop that with words.

Cell already bested who he believed to be the best (Goku) and besting Gohan is unnecessary because he already proved he's the best by beating Goku.

But Cell is mistaken. Even if he did beat the best, he's never going to just hang it up. I don't even remember what your point is.

[TheUltimateVegito]

That's what being insecure is or at least it is one of the ways it manifests itself. If your reaction to being bested is to throw a tantrum or try to destroy the world, you're insecure. What do you think being insecure means?

Vegeta also has a cold sadistic side. It's a dominant trait of his, and he wants to test his limits. Everything shows that Cell wants to prove to everyone that he's the strongest. It's his MO. If Cell was just advertising, he wouldn't have felt the need to kill all those people in the buildings just to make his point. That sort of destructiveness and coldhearted mass murder needs to be stopped. You can't stop that with words.

Cell already bested who he believed to be the best (Goku) and besting Gohan is unnecessary because he already proved he's the best by beating Goku.

But Cell is mistaken. Even if he did beat the best, he's never going to just hang it up. I don't even remember what your point is.

Being insecure means not being confident, I'm sure Cell was confident before he got bested.

Just because he killed those people doesn't mean he can't stop. Killing those people in the buildings was to show the people what they're up against, not to prove a point. How do you know he's not going to hang it up? There's no point in him fighting any longer and there's no point in him killing people from Gohan's POV. If there's no point to what he's doing then a chance for him to stop. He's not a unstable killer who can't stop himself, otherwise he wouldn't have waited those ten days. And no, the royal soldiers don't count, because they provoked Cell. If they didn't show Cell wouldn't have killed anyone in those ten days.

[ABED]

Arrogance isn't the same as being confident. Cell falls into the former category. Arrogance stems from category.

Killing those people in the buildings was to show the people what they're up against, not to prove a point.

How do you not see the contradiction in your statement? He's proving a point that he's incredibly strong and no normal person can stand against him. Are you playing devil's advocate? Do you really think Cell would just defeat Goku and just retire or something? Your logic is regarding the 10 day waiting period is stretch. 10 days is a very short period of time. Even real life serial killers (not saying Cell is a serial killer, just making a point) can go a while without killing. It's not like he gave them years. Those royal soldiers do count because they are nothing to Cell. They provoked him? So what if they did? It's not like they could've harmed him at all.

Cell is superpowerful and has a god complex. He's not going to stop.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Arrogance isn't the same as being confident. Cell falls into the former category. Arrogance stems from category.

Killing those people in the buildings was to show the people what they're up against, not to prove a point.

How do you not see the contradiction in your statement? He's proving a point that he's incredibly strong and no normal person can stand against him. Are you playing devil's advocate? Do you really think Cell would just defeat Goku and just retire or something? Your logic is regarding the 10 day waiting period is stretch. 10 days is a very short period of time. Even real life serial killers can go a while without killing. It's not like he gave them years. Those royal soldiers do count because they are nothing to Cell. They provoked him? So what if they did? It's not like they could've harmed him at all.

That still doesn't explain how Cell is insecure.

I'm not thinking Cell would retire. I'm thinking, from Gohan's point of view, he could stop the Cell Games. Gohan didn't want to fight Cell any further because he feared his hate for him would lead to him killing Cell, so all that killing Cell did added to why Gohan wouldn't want to fight. Doing absolutely nothing for 10 days is a long time and shows how much self-restraint Cell has, I know I wouldn't be able to stand in one place for 10 days.

[ABED]

Then I don't know how else to explain it to you because a secure person doesn't lose it when someone is better than them.

Gohan didn't want to fight Cell any further because he feared his hate for him would lead to him killing Cell, so all that killing Cell did added to why Gohan wouldn't want to fight. Doing absolutely nothing for 10 days is a long time and shows how much self-restraint Cell has, I know I wouldn't be able to stand in one place for 10 days.

10 days is NOT a long time. It goes by incredibly fast. Standing in one place wasn't a condition. He could move around as much or as little as he wanted. He just had to refrain from killing for 10 days. Regarding Gohan's mindset, I wish you would frame it as what you think Gohan could be thinking because you don't know. The most we have is one statement and a lot of conjecture. I would think Cell's bodycount would only add to why Gohan would want to kill Cell. Why would he not want Cell dead?

[TheUltimateVegito]

Then I don't know how else to explain it to you because a secure person doesn't lose it when someone is better than them.

Gohan didn't want to fight Cell any further because he feared his hate for him would lead to him killing Cell, so all that killing Cell did added to why Gohan wouldn't want to fight. Doing absolutely nothing for 10 days is a long time and shows how much self-restraint Cell has, I know I wouldn't be able to stand in one place for 10 days.

10 days is NOT a long time. It goes by incredibly fast. Standing in one place wasn't a condition. He could move around as much or as little as he wanted. He just had to refrain from killing for 10 days. Regarding Gohan's mindset, I wish you would frame it as what you think Gohan could be thinking because you don't know. The most we have is one statement and a lot of conjecture. I would think Cell's bodycount would only add to why Gohan would want to kill Cell. Why would he not want Cell dead?

Standing in one place showed he had no way of occupying himself in the ten days, moving around wouldn't have provided any more amusement than just standing there. Having that sort of lack of things to do would make the ten days feel long.

It's how I interpret Gohan thinking based on what's in the manga. And yes Gohan wants to kill Cell, that's one of the reasons why he doesn't want to fight Cell, because he believes he'd kill Cell if he fights him and he doesn't want to kill in a pointless fight since he believes killing is a sin.

[ABED]

Standing in one place showed he had no way of occupying himself in the ten days, moving around wouldn't have provided any more amusement than just standing there. Having that sort of lack of things to do would make the ten days feel long.

It didn't show that he had no way to occupy himself, just that it's the way he chose to occupy himself. This sort of leap is what I'm talking about.

It's how I interpret Gohan thinking based on what's in the manga.

YES! Your interpretation.

And yes Gohan wants to kill Cell, that's one of the reasons why he doesn't want to fight Cell, because he believes he'd kill Cell if he fights him and he doesn't want to kill in a pointless fight since he believes killing is a sin.

Aaaaannnnddd... it's gone. He never once thought killing is a sin, nor implied it.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Standing in one place showed he had no way of occupying himself in the ten days, moving around wouldn't have provided any more amusement than just standing there. Having that sort of lack of things to do would make the ten days feel long.

It didn't show that he had no way to occupy himself, just that it's the way he chose to occupy himself. This sort of leap is what I'm talking about.

It's how I interpret Gohan thinking based on what's in the manga.

YES! Your interpretation.

And yes Gohan wants to kill Cell, that's one of the reasons why he doesn't want to fight Cell, because he believes he'd kill Cell if he fights him and he doesn't want to kill in a pointless fight since he believes killing is a sin.

Aaaaannnnddd... it's gone. He never once thought killing is a sin, nor implied it.

The only thing that amuses Cell is killing people and testing his powers, the fact that he couldn't do neither in the ten days meant he had no way of occupying himself.

Indeed it's my interpretation, but I feel it's a valid opinion.

The fact that he went SSJ2 instead of a rage boost after 16's speech shows that 16's words impacted Gohan, meaning he believed killing is a sin.

[ABED]

Indeed it's my interpretation, but I feel it's a valid opinion.

Yes - opinion. You keep trying to pass it off as canon.

The fact that he went SSJ2 instead of a rage boost after 16's speech shows that 16's words impacted Gohan, meaning he believed killing is a sin.

Which is contradicted by his actions. You have to take the story and characters as a whole and ultimately actions speak louder than words. What you've done is take that one single line and then twist the rest of the story until it fits your interpretation. This goes to the heart of the matter. I and others are saying that this line is bad writing because Gohan always knew it was right to fight to protect the people you love and care about. We know that because ever since the fight against the Saiyans, Gohan has always fought to protect his friends and family and not once has he shown any moral reticence. Even if he arguably never killed anyone, he's never condemned killing.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Indeed it's my interpretation, but I feel it's a valid opinion.

Yes - opinion. You keep trying to pass it off as canon.

The fact that he went SSJ2 instead of a rage boost after 16's speech shows that 16's words impacted Gohan, meaning he believed killing is a sin.

Which is contradicted by his actions. You have to take the story and characters as a whole and ultimately actions speak louder than words. What you've done is take that one single line and then twist the rest of the story until it fits your interpretation. This goes to the heart of the matter. I and others are saying that this line is bad writing because Gohan always knew it was right to fight to protect the people you love and care about. We know that because ever since the fight against the Saiyans, Gohan has always fought to protect his friends and family and not once has he shown any moral reticence. Even if he arguably never killed anyone, he's never condemned killing.

It's what I believe to be canon.

That's because he suppressed his belief that killing is a sin, as shown by him having rage boosts instead of fully controlling his hidden powers.

[ABED]

And yet he's never shown to feel any shame after any of it.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Is Gohan displaying inconsistent character traits? Not to me -- it's natural growth while having been removed from the battlefield. How can there be inconsistencies with his character's approach when all signs are pointing to a variety of other outside changes that had occurred during his few years away from the battlefield, plus training in such an unaccommodating place with his Dad for a year?

That's not natural growth because it's not growth. His fight in the Cell Games doesn't show discipline. It actually shows the opposite.

I don't see regression. The audience learned through Gohan himself that he did not want to lose control like he had done several times in his younger days against previous threats. The SSJ2 transformation was supposed to be a very big deal for DB at the time it was written, and Gohan battling with his serious concern over what the power he felt inside might do to him now after the RoSaT training created a buildup towards just how special a moment that it was meant to be for Gohan to finally be "all-out unleashed", but now able to sustain it for more than a few seconds. His hidden power was now a part of his natural fighting ability, but not without some temporary psychological effects.

Gohan had not been doubting himself.

That is simply not true.

That comment was regarding his attempt at resolve with Cell. In relation to Gohan freezing up afterwards, I'm not convinced that it was as simple as just lacking confidence. He was battling various emotions simultaneously, plus his inner power rising up. He had not mastered the fullest extent of his potential, therefore, he was overwhelmed by it all as he was put on the spot. Goku didn't think that whole deal through beforehand, as he thought that it would be as simple as putting Gohan out there in hopes of him getting super-angry, which Piccolo commented on.

[ABED]

There was no buildup in the Room of Spirit and Time. He just trained. Hell, in the manga, they simply show his first SSJ transformation, not why he even transformed. You all make it like those psychological effects of turning SSJ2 a huge deal. SSJ and SSJ2 might magnify it a little, but the anger is the cause of the transformation, not the consequence, and he never feared his anger before.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

I understand that the manga skipped over some details throughout its run. Scenes in the anime adaptation are "filler" to the manga -- who's to say that some of that content in the anime wasn't Toriyama's original ideas as well? Between the final stamp of the manga panels and then those illustrations being adapted for TV, Toriyama could've requested to Toei to add in other details that weren't at the forefront of his mind when penning it down/finalizing in haste. I don't know if that kind of info exists anywhere, or to what extent. It's not that important to the discussion.

How sure are we that Gohan's transformation was triggered by just anger? In Goku's flashback reveal, Gohan seemed to be able to nearly get there from some form of other set of emotional trigger(s). In the big transformation scene even, it seemed to be more than just pure, full-on anger initially.

The training before the Cell Games is being way downplayed by the opposing side. Training in that realm was expected to deliver an end result in the area of self-improvement, which we can deduce that Gohan had undergone varying degree of growth. Cell was a threat, as many before him, but he wasn't so much beyond Gohan's ability to at least attempt to be contained and reasoned with.

And, I keep repeating myself... :p


So, what I've learned in this thread:

- The RoSaT didn't make a difference at all to anything or anyone (F.Trunks own words :p). No buildup in the anime adaptation was shown at all. Later reveals of Gohan's struggle with super-power are irrelevant.

- Gohan could not have grown at all in a year. He was supposed to emerge out of that eazy-breezy realm exactly the same as he walked in. Maturation is unfounded because a line of dialogue didn't explicitly state that Gohan had made further development. Gohan's characterization is inconsistent with his 9 years-of-age self, and his later Boo arc self. A transitory phase of maturity could not have happened, under any circumstances unless three words of dialogue said otherwise. There were a lack of visuals to back any of this up to indicate that Gohan had been in a calm state of being.

- This brand new threat to the world was exactly the same as previous threats, the scenarios were identical, the playing field was identical, and the approach to resolve was supposed to be exactly the same as in the past (when in all other instances, the protagonists had been at dire disadvantage)

- #16's words before getting stomped don't make sense, and should've been scrapped. That scene should not have impacted Gohan and what he should have already known. Artificial drama, and there's nothing at all there to read between the lines.

- Gohan should've got super-angry right away because millions of Earthlings were dead with no way of bringing them back, unleashed his power, and defeated Cell on the spot//end (even though Cell exhibited fair play VS Goku, and allowed F.Trunks and others to live ten days prior). Cell is the worst of the worst as an antagonist. How dare Gohan give him a chance to go on living (as Goku to Freeza previously). There's no positive message in any of it.

- SSJ2 power was so easy for Gohan's mind and body to process as he struggled with outside factors affecting him simultaneously (what took him so long... ?). Gohan needed to stop and let the audience know what was happening within him, because the visuals didn't provide enough during that sequence.

- Inconsistencies and bad writing all over the place. Terrible execution, and telegraphing through dialogue bits was non-existent.

OK, that's the final verdict on this topic. *whistles away*

[LuckyCat]

I don't see regression. The audience learned through Gohan himself that he did not want to lose control like he had done several times in his younger days against previous threats. The SSJ2 transformation was supposed to be a very big deal for DB at the time it was written, and Gohan battling with his serious concern over what the power he felt inside might do to him now after the RoSaT training created a buildup towards just how special a moment that it was meant to be for Gohan to finally be "all-out unleashed", but now able to sustain it for more than a few seconds. His hidden power was now a part of his natural fighting ability, but not without some temporary psychological effects.

Yes, so much this. This isn't a mere interpretation either, we literally see how recklessly out of control Gohan gets when he sadistically toys with Cell. For a nice kid like Gohan, it's understandable why he wouldn't want to become like that.

[ABED]

Yes, so much this. This isn't a mere interpretation either, we literally see how recklessly out of control Gohan gets when he sadistically toys with Cell. For a nice kid like Gohan, it's understandable why he wouldn't want to become like that.

He's lost control with his anger before but he doesn't actively fear it. He never has.

How sure are we that Gohan's transformation was triggered by just anger?

Because we see that anger was the trigger.

Training in that realm was expected to deliver an end result in the area of self-improvement, which we can deduce that Gohan had undergone varying degree of growth. Cell was a threat, as many before him, but he wasn't so much beyond Gohan's ability to at least attempt to be contained and reasoned with.

Gohan didn't improve psychologically and you can't deduce that. You've made too big of a leap. The most we can say about that room is that Gohan got much stronger because of it. And yes, he is beyond anyone's ability to reason with. Cell has a goal and he doesn't think anyone can physically stop him. He's evil. Plain and simple.

Genki, the rest of your post are pure strawman arguments. How you can be so completely off the mark is beyond me. It's like you weren't even reading. For instance "and telegraphing through dialogue bits was non-existent". What are you trying to get at? That I said telegraphing was non-existent? I never said that, and writers shouldn't telegraph their reveals and twists.

[LuckyCat]

Yes, so much this. This isn't a mere interpretation either, we literally see how recklessly out of control Gohan gets when he sadistically toys with Cell. For a nice kid like Gohan, it's understandable why he wouldn't want to become like that.

He's lost control with his anger before but he doesn't actively fear it. He never has.

See, you removed the context when you quoted me. The point SDG was making that I was agreeing with is that the loss of control before and now are different. Gohan's sadism toying with Cell as SSJ2 is evidence of that. He was never sadistically out of control like that before.

[ABED]

Yes, so much this. This isn't a mere interpretation either, we literally see how recklessly out of control Gohan gets when he sadistically toys with Cell. For a nice kid like Gohan, it's understandable why he wouldn't want to become like that.

He's lost control with his anger before but he doesn't actively fear it. He never has.

See, you removed the context when you quoted me. The point SDG was making that I was agreeing with is that the loss of control before and now are different. Gohan's sadism as SSJ2 is evidence of that. He was never sadistically out of control like that before.

It's not like he hasn't lost control and tried to kill people before. That could've been a nice little arc for him, but no, there's no arc since there's no build. He goes into a room and now he fears he might lose control, so much that he tries to reason with Cell, telling him that it's pointless, only to be convinced that there are some battles worth fighting. Do you see how incoherent this all is?

[LuckyCat]

It's not like he hasn't lost control and tried to kill people before.

Maybe, but there's a difference between killing someone and torturing someone then killing them.