Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

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Goku's forms during DBZ
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku's forms when he is an SSGod
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku's forms while the SSGod is in the process of merging with his body.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku's forms when the SSGod fully merges with his body.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku's forms after he trains with Whis.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Here, just think of it this way. The Super Saiyan form during DBS Ep. 14 is confusing. I think calling it by a certain name helps things: Semi-merged Super Saiyan God. Then when Goku goes Base during the sun ball fight, it is: Merged Super Saiyan God. It is easier to call his forms these things rather than Saiyan Beyond God; that name doesn't even describe it well.

Beerus was right that the SSGod power merged with Goku's body when he saw him as an SS1. HOWEVER, Beerus was wrong in that it was not done merging. The reason the SS1 form should be called Semi-merged Super Saiyan God is because we never see it again. He spontaneously becomes Base form and is somehow stronger. Why? Because the power fully merged with his body. That is why we see Goku in Base being weak and being strong. He has a Base form and a Merged Super Saiyan God form. Both have black hair.

He fights Botamo in his Base form, but fights Hit in his Merged Super Saiyan God form. In the manga he fights Hit with SSGod, so it makes sense that Goku would use Merged Super Saiyan God. Because this Merged Super Saiyan God is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan God, it could roughly keep up with Hit (who is at SSBlue level). There is no way Base Goku could keep up with the speed of Hit (Frost could not when Hit attacked him and Frost is around Base Goku). This also explains the Monaka-Beerus fight. He was in Merged Super Saiyan God. He was in Merged Super Saiyan God against Copy-Vegeta, who used it against SS3 Gotenks. Goku also used Merged Super Saiyan God against RoF Final Form Frieza.

This idea honestly solves numerous issues. We don't even have to say there was a retcon because we could just say Goku does not use it anymore. He NEVER uses SS3 anymore, but no one says he lost that form. Goku has Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, Merged Super Saiyan God, SSBlue, SSBlue KK, but he never uses SS3 or Merged Super Saiyan God anymore.

[TAF108]

What's the verdict on who's stronger between Vegeta, Freeza and 17 now?

Vegeta would presumably have been the same strength as Goku (in SSJB) before training, so with the training he had before the tournament, he should be stronger than Freeza (who's equal to Goku.) As far as NO. 17 goes, I'd say he'd be equal to Goku (SSJB) max. So, Vegeta should be the strongest of the 3. Assuming 17 is just as strong as Goku, he's as strong as Freeza.

So my own list would be Goku (Whatever his "final form" will be), Vegeta, Freeza, everyone else. With only 17 or Gohan possibly being comparable to Freeza. I need more feats from them before I say anything.

[avasatu]

For the two base theorists (possibly including myself): How do you explain Goku going directly to Blue from his apparently "weak" base vs. Nink? This is the first time I can recall Goku going from his supposedly weak base directly into SSB.

Either:

1) Nink was > SBG
or
2) Goku went to SBG then SSB almost instantly
or
3) Goku has one base.

All of these sound bad

[ChiefWamsutta]

For the two base theorists (possibly including myself): How do you explain Goku going directly to Blue from his apparently "weak" base vs. Nink? This is the first time I can recall Goku going from his supposedly weak base directly into SSB.

Either:

1) Nink was > SBG
or
2) Goku went to SBG then SSB almost instantly
or
3) Goku has one base.

All of these sound bad

Well, Goku definitely doesn't have one Base form. Nink could be greater than SBG. I really wouldn't care because Quitela saw him fight in the Zen Exhibition Match, and he plans ahead so he could have found someone who is SBG level. Or Goku momentarily went into SBG and then SSBlue, but that sounds hard to believe.

I would go with #1 because that keeps my theory consistent, plus I don't mind Nink being that strong.

[Bullza]

Alright so I went through some of the Resurrection F saga yesterday after ChiefWamsutta pointed out that image to me and here's a few things I wanted to bring up.

1. After the fight with Beerus, if Base Goku was a Saiyan Beyond God and was as strong as Super Saiyan God then what is happening when he does this?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He'd have to be getting stronger as Whis also said that he could but then it'd mean that he'd be surpassing Super Saiyan God here which is something that didn't happen until he was Super Saiyan Blue. Would he still be getting the 50 fold boost here too?

Ideally shouldn't it mean that Super Saiyan Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku therefore meaning that Base Goku was not as strong as Super Saiyan God? Is that why when Super Saiyan God's time ran out he reverted to Super Saiyan and not Base?


2. What do people make of this? It was something that only happened the once and it's not something I've seen people mention before.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Before transforming into a Super Saiyan Blue he first gains the Super Saiyan aura, it was seen in a few shots so they made a point of it.

In that scene it doesn't look like Super Saiyan Blue is just him going Super Saiyan. It looks like he first taps into his Super Saiyan power and then he adds the God Ki to it to turn him Blue. So if he hadn't added the God Ki to it then would it not mean that this super powerful Base Goku could actually still turn into the regular Super Saiyan after all?


3. Upon transforming into Super Saiyan Blue, King Kai says this.

"He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus Sama's planet?"

Don't you think that's a weird comment for him to make if he was a Saiyan Beyond God the whole time he was fighting Beerus with the power of Super Saiyan God inside him? Doesn't that comment imply that he wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God before transforming?


4. Goku does imply that Super Saiyan Blue was the result of some "pretty brutal training". So it'd be something he learned to do so there would have to be more to it than him just turning Super Saiyan whilst as a Saiyan Beyond God. Probably this whole Ki leaking business had something to do with it.


5. Even in the manga Base Goku is portayed as being pretty impressive. Krillin and the others can see a serious fight between Super Saiyan Goku and Cell.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But they can not see a fight between Base Goku (while he still holding back a bit) and First Form Frost.

[spoiler][/spoiler]


So all in all could it not be possible that there is just one Base, it's incredibly strong (more so than Super Saiyan 3 from the start of the series) but it's not as strong as Super Saiyan God nor are the regular Super Saiyan forms after his fight with Beerus.

[RIP_Power_Levels]

Lots of head canon on my part, but I think Goku and Vegeta have two bases, one with and one without the power of Super Saiyan God. In their normal base, they are much weaker than Super Saiyan God but definitely stronger than their Buu Saga selves. In this state, then can go Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, with the original multipliers still applying. That way in Super Saiyan 3, Goku isn't 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God, that just wouldn't make sense. To me at least, it explains why Goku and Vegeta seem to exert themselves against foes that shouldn't be close to God tier, such as base Vegeta vs Cabba. Their second base form has the power of Super Saiyan God and is as strong as Super Saiyan God, and when in this state, if they go Super Saiyan they go Super Saiyan Blue.

[avasatu]

Alright so I went through some of the Resurrection F saga yesterday after ChiefWamsutta pointed out that image to me and here's a few things I wanted to bring up.

1. After the fight with Beerus, if Base Goku was a Saiyan Beyond God and was as strong as Super Saiyan God then what is happening when he does this?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He'd have to be getting stronger as Whis also said that he could but then it'd mean that he'd be surpassing Super Saiyan God here which is something that didn't happen until he was Super Saiyan Blue. Would he still be getting the 50 fold boost here too?

Ideally shouldn't it mean that Super Saiyan Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku therefore meaning that Base Goku was not as strong as Super Saiyan God? Is that why when Super Saiyan God's time ran out he reverted to Super Saiyan and not Base?


2. What do people make of this? It was something that only happened the once and it's not something I've seen people mention before.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Before transforming into a Super Saiyan Blue he first gains the Super Saiyan aura, it was seen in a few shots so they made a point of it.

In that scene it doesn't look like Super Saiyan Blue is just him going Super Saiyan. It looks like he first taps into his Super Saiyan power and then he adds the God Ki to it to turn him Blue. So if he hadn't added the God Ki to it then would it not mean that this super powerful Base Goku could actually still turn into the regular Super Saiyan after all?


3. Upon transforming into Super Saiyan Blue, King Kai says this.

"He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus Sama's planet?"

Don't you think that's a weird comment for him to make if he was a Saiyan Beyond God the whole time he was fighting Beerus with the power of Super Saiyan God inside him? Doesn't that comment imply that he wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God before transforming?


4. Goku does imply that Super Saiyan Blue was the result of some "pretty brutal training". So it'd be something he learned to do so there would have to be more to it than him just turning Super Saiyan whilst as a Saiyan Beyond God. Probably this whole Ki leaking business had something to do with it.


5. Even in the manga Base Goku is portayed as being pretty impressive. Krillin and the others can see a serious fight between Super Saiyan Goku and Cell.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But they can not see a fight between Base Goku (while he still holding back a bit) and First Form Frost.

[spoiler][/spoiler]


So all in all could it not be possible that there is just one Base, it's incredibly strong (more so than Super Saiyan 3 from the start of the series) but it's not as strong as Super Saiyan God nor are the regular Super Saiyan forms after his fight with Beerus.

I'd love to get in on this discussion, but I can only see your first image, and I don't understand what you mean by it. It looks like farmer Goku going SS1. I can't see anything else :/

[TheMikado]

Lots of head canon on my part, but I think Goku and Vegeta have two bases, one with and one without the power of Super Saiyan God. In their normal base, they are much weaker than Super Saiyan God but definitely stronger than their Buu Saga selves. In this state, then can go Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, with the original multipliers still applying. That way in Super Saiyan 3, Goku isn't 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God, that just wouldn't make sense. To me at least, it explains why Goku and Vegeta seem to exert themselves against foes that shouldn't be close to God tier, such as base Vegeta vs Cabba. Their second base form has the power of Super Saiyan God and is as strong as Super Saiyan God, and when in this state, if they go Super Saiyan they go Super Saiyan Blue.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I keep saying this but its sooooo utterly hilarious that people still keep wandering into this forum and coming to the same conclusions over and over and over and over again.
This cannot be a coincidence. Even if this wasn't their intentions its what is heavily implied as the only way to make sense of Super in-universe.

[Bullza]

I'd love to get in on this discussion, but I can only see your first image, and I don't understand what you mean by it. It looks like farmer Goku going SS1. I can't see anything else :/

Looks like the images timed out. The point with Goku turning Super Saiyan when farming is that as a Super Saiyan at that point he should not be stronger than Super Saiyan God. At best he should only be as strong as Super Saiyan God there which would mean that Base Goku would have to be weaker than Super Saiyan God by default.

This was Goku before turning Super Saiyan Blue, he first has the gold aura of Super Saiyan, you see this in a few shots too. It looks like he first taps into his Super Saiyan power and then he applies God Ki to it.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Krillin and the others can see this fight when Super Saiyan Goku and Cell fight seriously.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But not this fight

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So would he not be stronger in Base form here than when he was a Super Saiyan back then just like he seems to be in the anime? In both the manga and the anime is Base Goku simply in between beginning of Super SSJ3 and SSJG?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Lots of head canon on my part, but I think Goku and Vegeta have two bases, one with and one without the power of Super Saiyan God. In their normal base, they are much weaker than Super Saiyan God but definitely stronger than their Buu Saga selves. In this state, then can go Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, with the original multipliers still applying. That way in Super Saiyan 3, Goku isn't 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God, that just wouldn't make sense. To me at least, it explains why Goku and Vegeta seem to exert themselves against foes that shouldn't be close to God tier, such as base Vegeta vs Cabba. Their second base form has the power of Super Saiyan God and is as strong as Super Saiyan God, and when in this state, if they go Super Saiyan they go Super Saiyan Blue.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I keep saying this but its sooooo utterly hilarious that people still keep wandering into this forum and coming to the same conclusions over and over and over and over again.
This cannot be a coincidence. Even if this wasn't their intentions its what is heavily implied as the only way to make sense of Super in-universe.

Really? I never got any hint of this being implied in any sense. If anything, seeing the theory brought up for the first time made me disbelieve it even more, which you've noted when I first started posting on these forums.

Outside of Kanzenshuu, what IS the majority idea on power-scaling in the anime, anyways? I ask because this particular forum is a bit of a biased and unrepresentative sample for such purposes.

[Hugo Boss]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Krillin and the others can see this fight when Super Saiyan Goku and Cell fight seriously.

It didn't pass me this impression, really. The only one who seems to be able to keep up with the fight is Gohan.

[Marlowe89]

I keep saying this but its sooooo utterly hilarious that people still keep wandering into this forum and coming to the same conclusions over and over and over and over again.
This cannot be a coincidence. Even if this wasn't their intentions its what is heavily implied as the only way to make sense of Super in-universe.

I think that's just because it's only the natural conclusion one would make from Blue's description and other official materials at this point, plus it's the only thing that really explains the discrepancies between various portrayals of Goku's base throughout the show.

Either 1. two bases exist, 2. something was retconned, or 3. Toei's writers really don't care about the power scale at all beyond whatever is established in Toriyama's script.

[DBZ Macky]

Lots of head canon on my part, but I think Goku and Vegeta have two bases, one with and one without the power of Super Saiyan God. In their normal base, they are much weaker than Super Saiyan God but definitely stronger than their Buu Saga selves. In this state, then can go Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, with the original multipliers still applying. That way in Super Saiyan 3, Goku isn't 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God, that just wouldn't make sense. To me at least, it explains why Goku and Vegeta seem to exert themselves against foes that shouldn't be close to God tier, such as base Vegeta vs Cabba. Their second base form has the power of Super Saiyan God and is as strong as Super Saiyan God, and when in this state, if they go Super Saiyan they go Super Saiyan Blue.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I keep saying this but its sooooo utterly hilarious that people still keep wandering into this forum and coming to the same conclusions over and over and over and over again.
This cannot be a coincidence. Even if this wasn't their intentions its what is heavily implied as the only way to make sense of Super in-universe.

Really? I never got any hint of this being implied in any sense. If anything, seeing the theory brought up for the first time made me disbelieve it even more, which you've noted when I first started posting on these forums.

Outside of Kanzenshuu, what IS the majority idea on power-scaling in the anime, anyways? I ask because this particular forum is a bit of a biased and unrepresentative sample for such purposes.

In the YouTube side of things, most of the guys are trying to apply logic and mostly come to the logical conclusion that Goku either suppresses himself or believe the 2-base theory (or some variation of it).

Then there's a few wise "debators" who take everything at face value, "Debunk" people for thinking that Gohan's base wasn't Ultimate in RoF (because Gohan said Tagoma was comparable to him "at his best") and have "God Goku" being pretty much Super Saiyan God squared:
because Base = SSG,
SS= 50 * SSG
and SSB= SSG * (50 * SSG)

Oh, and did I mention that these guys are multi star solar universe busters?

You can take your pick.

[Bullza]

It didn't pass me this impression, really. The only one who seems to be able to keep up with the fight is Gohan.

Well they're all looking in the same direction as them unlike the humans who can't see anything so it does look like they're capable of seeing them fight.

Vados also commented on Goku's speed being impressive.

Base Goku and Vegeta did all that training in Whis' heavy suits which were described as putting more pressure on the body than the Gravity Chamber which they previously used Super Saiyan in. Does that mean they also happened to be in Saiyan Beyond God form when doing push ups? But they weren't in Saiyan Beyond God form when fighting in intense battles at the Tournament? That'd be a bit silly wouldn't it?

In the YouTube side of things, most of the guys are trying to apply logic and mostly come to the logical conclusion that Goku either suppresses himself or believe the 2-base theory (or some variation of it).

Either option could be a possibility. They've made a point of Goku being a slow starter a couple times and that could be it.

The two base theory certainly isn't a sure thing. It's very weird that Toei would choose to play this weird guessing game of what Base Goku were seeing in what scene.

And it's also very odd how it's used. For example them surviving Beerus' blast and his "attacks" in the Resurrection F saga. They were using Saiyan Beyond God form when they were changing his bed sheets but he wasn't using that form when he fought Black in the present? He was using it when he was randomly caught by Nink but wasn't using it when he fought Toppo?

It's an ideal theory and I can see why so many people agree with it but I would not be surprised at all if it was completely wrong.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It didn't pass me this impression, really. The only one who seems to be able to keep up with the fight is Gohan.

Well they're all looking in the same direction as them unlike the humans who can't see anything so it does look like they're capable of seeing them fight.

Vados also commented on Goku's speed being impressive.

Base Goku and Vegeta did all that training in Whis' heavy suits which were described as putting more pressure on the body than the Gravity Chamber which they previously used Super Saiyan in. Does that mean they also happened to be in Saiyan Beyond God form when doing push ups? But they weren't in Saiyan Beyond God form when fighting in intense battles at the Tournament? That'd be a bit silly wouldn't it?

In the YouTube side of things, most of the guys are trying to apply logic and mostly come to the logical conclusion that Goku either suppresses himself or believe the 2-base theory (or some variation of it).

Either option could be a possibility. They've made a point of Goku being a slow starter a couple times and that could be it.

The two base theory certainly isn't a sure thing. It's very weird that Toei would choose to play this weird guessing game of what Base Goku were seeing in what scene.

And it's also very odd how it's used. For example them surviving Beerus' blast and his "attacks" in the Resurrection F saga. They were using Saiyan Beyond God form when they were changing his bed sheets but he wasn't using that form when he fought Black in the present? He was using it when he was randomly caught by Nink but wasn't using it when he fought Toppo?

It's an ideal theory and I can see why so many people agree with it but I would not be surprised at all if it was completely wrong.

It's this arbitrary placement of Two-Base Theory in certain areas and not others by folks that turns me off on it especially.

[Marlowe89]

Arbitrary suppositions like that aren't really required for those who subscribe to the theory, so I think that's a bit of a dishonest critique. One needn't assume that Goku was a "Saiyan Beyond God" when Nink grabbed him if he's capable of simultaneously (or even near simultaneously) activating his Godly power and his Super Saiyan state at once. Likewise, if he activated his Godly power while already in Super Saiyan, presumably he'd achieve the same result then as well which would further explain why we sometimes see him jumping from Super Saiyan to Blue.

The scene with Beerus and the bed sheets was very clearly a gag scene played up for laughs -- you could argue that such a scene would have been well within Toei's scriptwriting even if Goku never became a Super Saiyan God or obtained its power at all, and as we currently know from the abilities afforded by a God of Destruction, that wasn't likely even close to Beerus' true power.

[Bullza]

I'd accept it was a gag but it's that Goku brought it up in a later scene when they were getting ready to go bed makes it seem like there was something to it.

I definitely think Super Saiyan and possibly Base Goku were as strong as Super Saiyan God when he fought Beerus and that he's currently not that strong in his regular forms now so there was some change.

I'm 50/50 on this two base theory. It just seems like it's used for convenience a lot of the time. "Oh Base Goku is fighting Roshi, he must be in normal state" "Oh Base Goku is keeping up with Golden Frieza, he must be in Saiyan Beyond God form".

People say that Super Saiyan God in the manga is the equivalent of Saiyan Beyond God in the anime but there's no direct comparison to be had with that.

Why is it that they can sense Base Goku with God Ki but then they can't sense Super Saiyan with God Ki aka Super Saiyan Blue? Doesn't that tell you Base Goku doesn't have God Ki? Isn't ​that why King Kai made a fuss when he turned Blue and started talking about him being a Super Saiyan God?

This theory started because people thought he was too weak to be at God levels but too strong to be at Buu levels. So wouldn't it be easier to say he's at neither and he's just in between? There's far more evidence for that than him being able to switch between base strengths afterall. Even the manga arguably implies it if the scans I posted mean anything.

[TheMikado]

Just to be clear, the argument of the two base theory should never be taken as what actually IS, but rather what it SHOULD be. i.e. What Toriyamas intentions were storywise.

My personal believe is that it was Toriyamas intentions that SbG was an elevated state Goku/Vegeta could activate at will and seperate of the SSJ forms and that they could stack SSJ on top of that to make it SSB.
This is supported by the document explained their ability to use or activate God power without transforming.

The two base theory is all about what people theorized was Toriyamas intentions for the forms and what the show SHOULD be showing. Not what Toei is actually presenting.

This is why people do not use the shows sequences for evidence because the show may not accurately reflect the intentions. Much like we do not use filler to explain the original manga, I wouldn't use the show to prove or disprove Toriyamas intentions. And I've said it before that the concept does not exist in the anime at all, but this could also just simply be because Toei got it wrong in the first place.

Also the manga having SSG fills the power void in terms of hierarchy sequence which people were expecting. The fact that people successfully predicted the manga would/should have a non SSJ God power form is good evidence that the theory was headed in the right direction. The prediction of such a state was not a coincidence nor an accident.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think Episode 100 where Caulifla asks Goku to teach her SSBlue might be a blessing in disguise.

Goku would articulate SSBlue to Caulifla, and maybe by extension SSGod, Saiyan Beyond God, and God Ki.

We may get the answer that we need.

[TheMikado]

I think Episode 100 where Caulifla asks Goku to teach her SSBlue might be a blessing in disguise.

Goku would articulate SSBlue to Caulifla, and maybe by extension SSGod, Saiyan Beyond God, and God Ki.

We may get the answer that we need.

$20 bucks says Goku describes going SSB like trying to hold in a poo, Caulifla does it and goes SSB instantly. Cabba tries it and sh*ts his pants. Internet goes crazy for three weeks and "dozens" of fans threaten to quit the show.