Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think Episode 100 where Caulifla asks Goku to teach her SSBlue might be a blessing in disguise.

Goku would articulate SSBlue to Caulifla, and maybe by extension SSGod, Saiyan Beyond God, and God Ki.

We may get the answer that we need.

$20 bucks says Goku describes going SSB like trying to hold in a poo, Caulifla does it and goes SSB instantly. Cabba tries it and sh*ts his pants. Internet goes crazy for three weeks and "dozens" of fans threaten to quit the show.

I bet you that Goku won't even be able to explain how SSBlue works.

It is sad that the staple of DBSuper, Super Saiyan Blue, is not easy to understand.

[Marlowe89]

There's far more evidence for that than him being able to switch between base strengths afterall.

That's where we differ; I think the exact opposite is the case. As I've highlighted in this post (and several others) I believe there has been plenty of official evidence to suppose the existence of two bases and little to no evidence to support the idea of some "in between" state. Furthermore, if Goku can presumably toggle his ability to use Godly power while in Super Saiyan (i.e. becoming Blue), why couldn't he also do it in base? That's what Episode 20 seemed to suggest after all.

As ChiefWamsutta mentioned, Toei has an opportunity to fully clarify the issue in Episode 100. For hundreds of pages in this thread it seems we've gone around in the same endless circles trying to reconcile the same problems, so perhaps there's hope yet that the debate might end once and for all in a few weeks' time.

[avasatu]

I definitely think Super Saiyan and possibly Base Goku were as strong as Super Saiyan God when he fought Beerus and that he's currently not that strong in his regular forms now so there was some change.

You basically have the believe it though, thanks to episode 95, unless you think it takes exponentially more energy to compress a ball of destructive energy as it gets smaller (hey...that's not a bad theory, actually) and you believe base Goku was somehow able to move at speeds relative to GF in his base form while at an astronomically lower power level.

I'm 50/50 on this two base theory. It just seems like it's used for convenience a lot of the time. "Oh Base Goku is fighting Roshi, he must be in normal state" "Oh Base Goku is keeping up with Golden Frieza, he must be in Saiyan Beyond God form".

I'm not even sure what you're describing is convenience. It's more observation combined with the most natural explanation, which happens to be a strange one that, on all accounts, has every reason to be incorrect.

Why is it that they can sense Base Goku with God Ki but then they can't sense Super Saiyan with God Ki aka Super Saiyan Blue? Doesn't that tell you Base Goku doesn't have God Ki? Isn't ​that why King Kai made a fuss when he turned Blue and started talking about him being a Super Saiyan God?

If you recall, my theory perfectly explains this. God essence vs. god ki, the former being the stepping stone. It's a pretty contrived explanation, but it's consistent with a few quotes in the show from Beerus and Whis.

I just want to say, I never thought the Nink fight would give me any insight into the show, but suffice it to say, it has . I hope the Caulifla moment is Toriyama or Toei's answer to all this nonsense.

[TAF108]

For the two base theorists (possibly including myself): How do you explain Goku going directly to Blue from his apparently "weak" base vs. Nink? This is the first time I can recall Goku going from his supposedly weak base directly into SSB.

Either:

1) Nink was > SBG
or
2) Goku went to SBG then SSB almost instantly
or
3) Goku has one base.

All of these sound bad

While I've advocated my position on the two-base theory before, I don't think there's any prerequisite for Goku going to Blue, in general. So far he's gone directly from base to Blue, SSJ to Blue, and SSJ2 to Blue. I think it's pretty much confirmed that Goku can go from any form to Blue. We haven't seen him go from SSJ3 to Blue yet, but considering the latter that I just mentioned, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

I'm not familiar with the two-base theory mechanics, but does Goku being able to just go Blue ruin it, or something?

[avasatu]

While I've advocated my position on the two-base theory before, I don't think there's any prerequisite for Goku going to Blue, in general. So far he's gone directly from base to Blue, SSJ to Blue, and SSJ2 to Blue. I think it's pretty much confirmed that Goku can go from any form to Blue. We haven't seen him go from SSJ3 to Blue yet, but considering the latter that I just mentioned, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

I'm not familiar with the two-base theory mechanics, but does Goku being able to just go Blue ruin it, or something?

The two base theory generally asserts that if Goku goes SS off of his weak base, he ends up in the golden haired line of transformations, while if he goes SS off of his "godly" base, he ends up as SSB. I think many of us would have , with good reason, assumed that Goku would start the ToP in his weak base (Goku using SS1 in previews, etc.), and Nink doesn't seem like the sharpest or strongest tool in the shed, so when he goes SSB directly from base, one of the 3 possibilities I listed in the post you quoted must be true, in my estimation. It seems like two base theorists are concluding, in large part, that Nink was just that strong. I lean more towards Goku going weak base - strong base - SSB instantly as he is about to be knocked off.

That said, I'm actively trying to brew up a comprehensive one base theory with as few retcons as possible, but I don't have tons of spare time, unfortunately.

[Bullza]

That's where we differ; I think the exact opposite is the case. As I've highlighted in this post (and several others) I believe there has been plenty of official evidence to suppose the existence of two bases and little to no evidence to support the idea of some "in between" state. Furthermore, if Goku can presumably toggle his ability to use Godly power while in Super Saiyan (i.e. becoming Blue), why couldn't he also do it in base? That's what Episode 20 seemed to suggest after all.

Yeah some things do point to it, the Resurrection F manga in particular. I don't know what the Dokkan reference is but I dunno, like I said why can they sense Base Goku when he's fighting Frieza supposedly with this Godly power but then they suddenly can't sense him anymore when he's just supposed to turn Super Saiyan?

If Base Goku was supposed to be that strong the whole time because he had the Super Saiyan God power burning in him then why does King Kai only mention that he's become a Super Saiyan God again only after he turns Blue when again all he'd be doing is just turning Super Saiyan?

As I mentioned here, before Goku turns Blue he first gains the regular Super Saiyan aura. An aura he didn't have the entire time when he fought Frieza because it was white. He looks like he's doing something with his Super Saiyan, possibly adding God Ki to it.

Which would mean if he hadn't added God Ki to it then he could have still turned into a regular Super Saiyan whilst with a strong Base form.

You can see it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHjjsckD30

But yeah it would be nice if episode 100 were to explain it but I won't hold my breathe because several times I've hoped an episode was going to make things clear and then it didn't happen.

You basically have the believe it though, thanks to episode 95, unless you think it takes exponentially more energy to compress a ball of destructive energy as it gets smaller (hey...that's not a bad theory, actually) and you believe base Goku was somehow able to move at speeds relative to GF in his base form while at an astronomically lower power level.

But it's odd why he would be using Saiyan Beyond God there. He was just fighting scrubs, barely fighting at that and he wasn't expected to be attacked by Frieza. So he'd be using in that scene for some reason but then wouldn't be using it when he fights and has trouble with strong opponents like Black and Toppo.

If he has two bases then which one was he using against Fit Buu? Going by the theory one base should be way too weak and the other way too strong for him to keep up with him like he did.

[emperior]

I think Episode 100 where Caulifla asks Goku to teach her SSBlue might be a blessing in disguise.

Goku would articulate SSBlue to Caulifla, and maybe by extension SSGod, Saiyan Beyond God, and God Ki.

We may get the answer that we need.

$20 bucks says Goku describes going SSB like trying to hold in a poo, Caulifla does it and goes SSB instantly. Cabba tries it and sh*ts his pants. Internet goes crazy for three weeks and "dozens" of fans threaten to quit the show.

I legit laughed, because knowing Toriyama it could be possible considering how much he loves toilet humor. Though I obviously hope such a thing will never happen.

[Saturnine]

The two base theory generally asserts that if Goku goes SS off of his weak base, he ends up in the golden haired line of transformations, while if he goes SS off of his "godly" base, he ends up as SSB. I think many of us would have , with good reason, assumed that Goku would start the ToP in his weak base (Goku using SS1 in previews, etc.), and Nink doesn't seem like the sharpest or strongest tool in the shed, so when he goes SSB directly from base, one of the 3 possibilities I listed in the post you quoted must be true, in my estimation. It seems like two base theorists are concluding, in large part, that Nink was just that strong. I lean more towards Goku going weak base - strong base - SSB instantly as he is about to be knocked off.

That said, I'm actively trying to brew up a comprehensive one base theory with as few retcons as possible, but I don't have tons of spare time, unfortunately.

Or you know, it could have been that Goku kinda lost his cool against Nink, and wanted to be absolutely, 100% sure he wouldn't get knocked out of the arena, so he pulled out all the stops?

I don't think the two base theory has anything to do with the pre-requisite base power level at the moment of transforming into SSj Blue. It's quite clear by now that Goku can transform into SSj Blue from whatever state he wants. The two-base theory only deals with the observation that sometimes Goku's base was shown to be meant to correspond to SSj God power, and sometimes not. It doesn't insist that Goku's MEANT to have those two levels of power and be able to switch between them at will, it only acknowledges that they've both been demonstrated in the anime. So it's more of an out-of-universe acknowledgement thing.

Every in-universe speculation about Goku being able to switch between the two base levels is just that - speculation. He was never shown in one scene to explicitly transition between the two states of power (he'd be much quicker to just transform into SSj). Right now it seems to be the consensus on Toei's part that Goku's base is not as powerful as SSj God was. The only moments in the series we can be absolutely 100% certain that his base power was meant to be equivalent to SSj God are the RoF and Potaufeu arcs. Other instances are debatable, but the tendency is clear to me, Toei seems to gear towards portraying Goku's base as not godly, though significantly stronger than in the Buu arc, due to all the training sessions and whatnot.

[Draconic]

I think Episode 100 where Caulifla asks Goku to teach her SSBlue might be a blessing in disguise.

Goku would articulate SSBlue to Caulifla, and maybe by extension SSGod, Saiyan Beyond God, and God Ki.

We may get the answer that we need.

$20 bucks says Goku describes going SSB like trying to hold in a poo, Caulifla does it and goes SSB instantly. Cabba tries it and sh*ts his pants. Internet goes crazy for three weeks and "dozens" of fans threaten to quit the show.

So Whis stepping in poo was the missing piece of the puzzle after all! Goku and Vegeta were pooping all over Beerus' planet while trying to reach godhood and the poop is pink because it's filled with Super Saiyan God's Ki!

[Ki Breaker]

I think Episode 100 where Caulifla asks Goku to teach her SSBlue might be a blessing in disguise.

Goku would articulate SSBlue to Caulifla, and maybe by extension SSGod, Saiyan Beyond God, and God Ki.

We may get the answer that we need.

$20 bucks says Goku describes going SSB like trying to hold in a poo, Caulifla does it and goes SSB instantly. Cabba tries it and sh*ts his pants. Internet goes crazy for three weeks and "dozens" of fans threaten to quit the show.

I legit laughed, because knowing Toriyama it could be possible considering how much he loves toilet humor. Though I obviously hope such a thing will never happen.

Another section of fandom decides to try it out and post their "results" online..
A new generation of poopy blue challenge Begins.. its literally quite shitty

[Marlowe89]

As I mentioned here, before Goku turns Blue he first gains the regular Super Saiyan aura. An aura he didn't have the entire time when he fought Frieza because it was white. He looks like he's doing something with his Super Saiyan, possibly adding God Ki to it.

Which would mean if he hadn't added God Ki to it then he could have still turned into a regular Super Saiyan whilst with a strong Base form.

You can see it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHjjsckD30

I'm not really sure what that was supposed to be, but I certainly don't think it was Goku's Super Saiyan because he was clearly in base during that scene despite having a gold aura.

Now that I think about it, maybe that was Toei's visualization of Saiyan Beyond God? That would answer your objections about King Kai's statement as well as the fact that everyone could still sense his ki when he was fighting Final Form Frieza, but it could also mean that Final Form Frieza himself wasn't nearly as powerful as we thought. It is interesting to note that Goku's line about Blue being the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God was right after that.

In any case, there's no way of telling.

[emperior]

While I've advocated my position on the two-base theory before, I don't think there's any prerequisite for Goku going to Blue, in general. So far he's gone directly from base to Blue, SSJ to Blue, and SSJ2 to Blue. I think it's pretty much confirmed that Goku can go from any form to Blue. We haven't seen him go from SSJ3 to Blue yet, but considering the latter that I just mentioned, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

I'm not familiar with the two-base theory mechanics, but does Goku being able to just go Blue ruin it, or something?

The two base theory generally asserts that if Goku goes SS off of his weak base, he ends up in the golden haired line of transformations, while if he goes SS off of his "godly" base, he ends up as SSB. I think many of us would have , with good reason, assumed that Goku would start the ToP in his weak base (Goku using SS1 in previews, etc.), and Nink doesn't seem like the sharpest or strongest tool in the shed, so when he goes SSB directly from base, one of the 3 possibilities I listed in the post you quoted must be true, in my estimation. It seems like two base theorists are concluding, in large part, that Nink was just that strong. I lean more towards Goku going weak base - strong base - SSB instantly as he is about to be knocked off.

That said, I'm actively trying to brew up a comprehensive one base theory with as few retcons as possible, but I don't have tons of spare time, unfortunately.

Goku also went from his weak base to Blue when fighting Toppo.
I assume submission techniques are that good that Goku was forced to go Blue to easily break up from it. Submission techniques are very efficient and get you in a stressful situation, both physically and mentally, so it doesn't surprise me that Goku used his max power to break free from Nink's submission.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku also went from his weak base to Blue when fighting Toppo.
I assume submission techniques are that good that Goku was forced to go Blue to easily break up from it. Submission techniques are very efficient and get you in a stressful situation, both physically and mentally, so it doesn't surprise me that Goku used his max power to break free from Nink's submission.

To piggyback off of this, a lot of the moments where power-scaling is thrown out the window like Hephaestus was by Zeus in Greek mythology have to do with one thing: a good fight.

In such instances, what makes a good fight in terms of martial arts supersedes how the previous anime approached power-scaling for its fights. I know this doesn't jive with folks around here, but it's honestly the most likely answer for how these things are approached. If it's how a fight between actual people would play out, just do the same with Ki-using fighters and superpowers.

[Snakeway Skywalker]

Goku also went from his weak base to Blue when fighting Toppo.
I assume submission techniques are that good that Goku was forced to go Blue to easily break up from it. Submission techniques are very efficient and get you in a stressful situation, both physically and mentally, so it doesn't surprise me that Goku used his max power to break free from Nink's submission.

To piggyback off of this, a lot of the moments where power-scaling is thrown out the window like Hephaestus was by Zeus in Greek mythology have to do with one thing: a good fight.

In such instances, what makes a good fight in terms of martial arts supersedes how the previous anime approached power-scaling for its fights. I know this doesn't jive with folks around here, but it's honestly the most likely answer for how these things are approached. If it's how a fight between actual people would play out, just do the same with Ki-using fighters and superpowers.

Okay, but does Goku really need to go Blue to just break out of a hold? Nink can't be that strong, or nearly as strong as Toppo. Couldn't he have just gone regular SSJ?

[Ki Breaker]

Okay, but does Goku really need to go Blue to just break out of a hold? Nink can't be that strong, or nearly as strong as Toppo. Couldn't he have just gone regular SSJ?

Why risk it?
He was in the brink of falling off, if by chance nink was somehow able to hold on even after SS, goku would be out

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, but does Goku really need to go Blue to just break out of a hold? Nink can't be that strong, or nearly as strong as Toppo. Couldn't he have just gone regular SSJ?

See, this is what I'm talking about. You're bringing power into the equation, and not thinking about how a fight WOULD work, were power to not be considered.

A big guy getting a smaller guy into such a crushing hold is very hard to escape in a real fight. Thus we simply say the same about this instance and not involve power-scaling.

[avasatu]

Let me ask this to grab some opinions. Assuming Goku only has one base, and ignoring the BoG arc, what's the weakest his base can possibly be relatively to Buu arc base? Not looking for exact, laser-precise numbers here, but what can we say?

We know base Goku tangled with and outmatched final form trained Frieza. How much stronger had Frieza gotten in that form? We know base Goku contended with, though ultimately lost to an improved Buu. We know base Goku survived immediate annihilation from and slightly moved a ball of destructive energy. Does any of this, or anything else, really require SBG?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Let me ask this to grab some opinions. Assuming Goku only has one base, and ignoring the BoG arc, what's the weakest in can possibly be relatively to Buu arc base? Not looking for exact, laser-precise numbers here, but what can we say?

We know base Goku tangled with and outmatched final form trained Frieza. How much stronger had Frieza gotten in that form? We know base Goku contended with, though ultimately lost to an improved Buu. We know base Goku survived immediate annihilation from and slightly moved a ball of destructive energy. Does any of this, or anything else, really require SBG?

Not really, no. The only truly major retcon that has to be made is Goku being exactly as strong as SSG after losing the form in the BoG Arc.

I'd place Goku and Vegeta in high-tier Buu Saga levels. In this general range, I also place current base Gohan, Final Form Freeza, Piccolo, and Slim Buu to simplify the power placements, above SS3 Gotenks but below the original Ultimate Gohan.

[DBZ Macky]

I find it hilarious how GT Goku and Super Goku are BOTH leagues ahead of SS3 Gotenks... in their fucking base forms! It's like Toei was just waiting for the perfect oppurtunity to fuck over whatever future those kids had as fighters or even characters in general.

Oh, and then there's shit like SS Goku (Vs. Super 17) being wayyy stronger than SS3 Goku. Like what the fuck Toei?
It's similar in DBS, where SSG Goku <= SS Goku < Base Goku when he runs out of SSG against Beerus.

Long story short, I definitely don't care whether "filler" exists in Super or not. If Goku's stronger than the entirety of Z in his base form, then it's definitely not Toriyama's idea or vision (at least when he has the future of the series in mind. There's a reason we didn't have Goku absorb God's powers in the Manga, IMO).

This is Toei. Overrating base Saiyans and having Goku simultaneously stronger AND weaker than some characters (mostly Gohan) is pretty much what's written in their resumé.

If you seriously want to make sense out of this mess without using the 2-base theory, then you might as well try making sense of GT first. The power scale is fucked up and even the writers (like Toshio) aren't sure whether certain characters are supposed to be stronger or weaker than others.

Using "head-canon" isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially when the show tells you jack, and when it does state something, it just adds more fuel to the confusion.

[Bullza]

I'm not really sure what that was supposed to be, but I certainly don't think it was Goku's Super Saiyan because he was clearly in base during that scene despite having a gold aura.

I'm not entirely sure what it was either but it has to mean something because they made a point of showing it. He wasn't a Super Saiyan but that was the Super Saiyan aura.

It looked like he was doing something with his Super Saiyan before turning it into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Assuming Goku only has one base, and ignoring the BoG arc, what's the weakest his base can possibly be relatively to Buu arc base?

Well after Goku went to Beerus' planet to train, Whis said that (Base) Vegeta had only just reached a level where he could even spar with him so he'd have to be at his strongest, stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who was above suppressed Beerus who was above SSJ3 Goku.

He was well above SSJ3 Gotenks too. So I'd say at least Ultimate Gohan strong same with Frieza and no they don't have to be Saiyan Beyond God to be that strong. Even GT made Base Goku ridiculously strong.