Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[avasatu]

Let me ask this to grab some opinions. Assuming Goku only has one base, and ignoring the BoG arc, what's the weakest in can possibly be relatively to Buu arc base? Not looking for exact, laser-precise numbers here, but what can we say?

We know base Goku tangled with and outmatched final form trained Frieza. How much stronger had Frieza gotten in that form? We know base Goku contended with, though ultimately lost to an improved Buu. We know base Goku survived immediate annihilation from and slightly moved a ball of destructive energy. Does any of this, or anything else, really require SBG?

Not really, no. The only truly major retcon that has to be made is Goku being exactly as strong as SSG after losing the form in the BoG Arc.

I'd place Goku and Vegeta in high-tier Buu Saga levels. In this general range, I also place current base Gohan, Final Form Freeza, Piccolo, and Slim Buu to simplify the power placements, above SS3 Gotenks but below the original Ultimate Gohan.

I think that's a pretty fair assumption. The manga sort of implies at the beginning that Goku was roughly Kid-Buu level as an SS1 (see the Goku's mental training page), and a 50+x increase seems fine given the grandiosity and intensity of what they've been through. I kind of like the ring of current base Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, FF Frieza, and Buu all being about Buu saga between SS3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan-ish, plus or minus. It's even ok to put max power Piccolo slightly below or near that level. I don't like referencing the manga in general, but here it gives us some non-contradictory insight we otherwise would not have.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask you, can you give some details on why you think Ultimate Gohan is about 8000x base? I've been trying to find your post on the matter, but haven't had the time to really dig for it.

By the way, people, if you haven't seen this video, do yourself a good service and watch it. I discuss DBS a lot with this guy, and he has some great insight. My comment below the video sums up my thoughts on the issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD1jP7WeIr4&t=3s

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think that's a pretty fair assumption. The manga sort of implies at the beginning that Goku was roughly Kid-Buu level as an SS1 (see the Goku's mental training page), and a 50+x increase seems fine given the grandiosity and intensity of what they've been through. I kind of like the ring of current base Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, FF Frieza, and Buu all being about Buu saga between SS3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan-ish, plus or minus. It's even ok to put max power Piccolo slightly below or near that level. I don't like referencing the manga in general, but here it gives us some non-contradictory insight we otherwise would not have.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask you, can you give some details on why you think Ultimate Gohan is about 8000x base? I've been trying to find your post on the matter, but haven't had the time to really dig for it.

By the way, people, if you haven't seen this video, do yourself a good service and watch it. I discuss DBS a lot with this guy, and he has some great insight. My comment below the video sums up my thoughts on the issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD1jP7WeIr4&t=3s

So, on my idea of Ultimate being an 8000 times multiplier unlock, it's rooted in a few things.

First is the assumption that the SS multipliers are still the same 50x, 100x, and 400x as usual. Next is measuring up how SS3 Gotenks compares to SS3 Goku, then scaling Ultimate Gohan off of that. This is all assuming that Gohan, after training with the Z-Sword, was about equal to Goku in all regular forms.

I came to the conclusion that SS3 Gotenks was around 12-13x stronger than SS3 Goku, and Ultimate Gohan about 50% stronger than that. Thus, I rounded it out to an even 20x stronger than SS3 Goku for mathematical simplicity.

[Bullza]

Going back to this business about Super Saiyan Blue actually just being Super Saiyan when they don't let their Ki leak out again.

There's a blink and you'd miss it shot right in this video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDN_M7GKQk

...at about 37 seconds in where you see Trunks bulk up massively and then the blue SSJB looking aura comes out and he shrinks back down. It's like a few seconds before this gif, you might remember it.



There wouldn't be any connection there would there? In that this blue aura shrunk him back down because it stopped his Ki from leaking out? You see it happen twice and it just so happens to be the same kind of aura that appeared when Goku and Vegeta clashed fists and we saw that SSJB tease.

[ekrolo2]

The problem with the ki leaking business is that the series uses auras to visualize the leaking as evidenced by Goku & Vegeta being unable to move in Whis' dimension until they get rid of them. This should mean that auras should go the way if the Nimbus cloud and just not exist anymore but the series keeps having them around regardless.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Going back to this business about Super Saiyan Blue actually just being Super Saiyan when they don't let their Ki leak out again.

There's a blink and you'd miss it shot right in this video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDN_M7GKQk

...at about 37 seconds in where you see Trunks bulk up massively and then the blue SSJB looking aura comes out and he shrinks back down. It's like a few seconds before this gif, you might remember it.



There wouldn't be any connection there would there? In that this blue aura shrunk him back down because it stopped his Ki from leaking out? You see it happen twice and it just so happens to be the same kind of aura that appeared when Goku and Vegeta clashed fists and we saw that SSJB tease.

Well, based purely on what the show has given us, SSRage is, well the power of rage. Saiyans are notorious for pulling power-ups from this emotion. SS, SS2, Mutated SS2, raging SSB, and SSRage.

I generally just assume that this power is the same kind of rage-boost that Vegeta had in BoG, but it's MUCH greater because Future Trunks was that much stronger than Vegeta back then in his normal forms already, rivaling god-powered Goku and Vegeta (and my assumption here is that Goku and Vegeta were only retconned down to VERY STRONG levels in base and SS forms). Vegeta didn't keep his rage power, but Future Trunks did.

Maybe the blue-stuff is why SSRage was permanent. We don't know the specifics, but your explanation could be the case.

[Marlowe89]

It looked like he was doing something with his Super Saiyan before turning it into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I'm not that convinced because again, he wasn't actually in Super Saiyan. This is all hypothetical, but maybe Toei was looking for a way to visually differentiate the second base. It wouldn't be the last time something similar happened -- in a later episode we can clearly see Vegeta activating some weird white glow around his base form before transforming into Super Saiyan Blue (I can't remember which episode this was but he was training with Whis here, I'll have to look into it).

And ultimately, it may not mean anything. This didn't happen in the RoF film, animators have made coloration mistakes before and this is particularly common in Japanese animation.

[avasatu]

So, on my idea of Ultimate being an 8000 times multiplier unlock, it's rooted in a few things.

First is the assumption that the SS multipliers are still the same 50x, 100x, and 400x as usual. Next is measuring up how SS3 Gotenks compares to SS3 Goku, then scaling Ultimate Gohan off of that. This is all assuming that Gohan, after training with the Z-Sword, was about equal to Goku in all regular forms.

I came to the conclusion that SS3 Gotenks was around 12-13x stronger than SS3 Goku, and Ultimate Gohan about 50% stronger than that. Thus, I rounded it out to an even 20x stronger than SS3 Goku for mathematical simplicity.

I can buy that base Gohan is more or less base Goku post Z-Sword, but what evidence is there that SS1 Gotenks=SS3 Goku? I recently read the Buu section of the manga and remember no such evidence.

[Almighty Majin]

I think Goku and Vegeta's bases are not as strong as SSJG, but stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as other people have mentioned here. I

[DBZ Macky]

I think Goku and Vegeta's bases are not as strong as SSJG, but stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as other people have mentioned here. I

But then what about Great Saiyaman fighting Goku evenly? Was Base Gohan stronger than SS3 Gotenks there?

I'll say this once more, it seems Goku is just holding back against most opponents (Or that different writers have different opinions about his strength). That's why his power is entirely plot dependent. It seems Goku is simultaneously just a little bit stronger than his Buu arc self, a lot stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and stronger than BoG SSG Goku:

Stuff that suggest SSB Goku >>> SS3 Gotenks >>> Base Goku >~ Buu arc Goku
*Goku not absorbing God's power in the Manga
Goku implied to have almost hit his limit and not improving much in the RoSaT
The possibility of Cabba and co. being much stronger than SS3 Gotenks being very, very unlikely
Base/SS Goku vs. Base/SS Great Saiyaman
Base/SS Goku vs. Krillin

Stuff that suggest SSB Goku >~ SS3 Goku >~ SS2 Goku >~ SS Goku ~ SSG Goku >> Base Goku >> Entirety of Z
*SS Goku surpassing a suppressed Hit in power and faring better than 10% SSB Vegeta in the Manga
Base Copy-Vegeta tanking SS3 Gotenks' kick
Base Goku Black's full power (stated to rival SS3 Goku) being a "little" stronger than Black when he was fighting evenly with SS2 Goku
Gowasu suggesting SS2 Goku's power rivals a Hakaishin
SS Goku deflecting Whis's Ki Blast
Base Goku being defeated by Fit Buu but still seeming to be somewhat on par with him
Base Goku tanking Piccolo's amplified attack (who was on par with SS2 Gohan)
Base Goku fighting evenly with Uub at the End of Z, where it's debatable that Uub was equal to Kid Buu in power
Super still not being much different from practically every Toei-heralded project despite Toriyama's involvement

Stuff that suggest SSB Goku >~ SS Goku ~ Base Goku ~ SSG Goku
Base/SS Goku fighting Beerus almost as well as (if not better than) SSG Goku
Base Goku surviving Beerus's "unrestrained" blast while training with Whis
Goku holding his own against Hit
Base Goku and Freeza exchanging blows and appearing to be equal
Goku managing to keep up with Golden Freeza's speed
Goku surviving Sidra's Hakai Ball

*(assuming that the Manga's power scale is similar to the Anime, despite the differences in the execution of plot-points)

Also, Krillin and Gohan were able to see Goku's movements against Beerus, but not against Botamo. So unless Botamo's stronger than BoG Beerus, the "being able to see movements" is not very reliable evidence. After all, that'd depend on the way the fighters are fighting, not their power. If Botamo wants to randomly jump in the ring, then it's gonna be difficult to follow him.

So, which approach do you like the most?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, I too had once concluded that Gohan had gotten up to Goku's regular forms' levels as well when I initially saw the two sparring, especially after seeing him sweating like crazy and possessing a bang after he flew up to say goodbye to Future Trunks.

But then, Goku expressed interest in turning SS against Krillin, of all people.

And then I saw that SS2 Gohan was now inferior to Piccolo, even though his training up until that point HAS been mentioned. And then I saw that Piccolo was around base Goku's level. So, how do I reconcile all this?

Well, it's simple: Goku likes turning SS to amp up his power, and he likes to fight in the form. As we see earlier in the series, he likes to transform as a SS to train. Basically, I just rationalized it as Goku AND Gohan both not going all-out and just turning SS from their suppressed states because, hey, they're just sparring. They simply got carried away by their little fun skirmish. No need to bring any real power-scaling there besides the boost of SS.

In actual serious bouts, like Gohan and Piccolo, it's shown that, at max power, Gohan in his SS1/2 forms was likely inferior to Goku's full base power, which I've speculated to range somewhere slightly below the original Ultimate Gohan.

[Bullza]

The problem with the ki leaking business is that the series uses auras to visualize the leaking as evidenced by Goku & Vegeta being unable to move in Whis' dimension until they get rid of them.

That's true. Weirdly enough they made a point of it during their training but then it never seemed to have any other purpose and was never brought up again. Goku didn't seem to be doing this trick when he fought Frieza in base anyway. There had to be something to it though, why exactly where they able to move in that other dimension after not letting it leak out?

The only other time it's been a thing was in the manga recently with Complete Super Saiyan Blue, he stopped his Ki from leaking out and so the aura disappeared.

I generally just assume that this power is the same kind of rage-boost that Vegeta had in BoG

I'd say that was part of it but that there was more to it than that otherwise he could have just stayed looking the same like Vegeta did. That on both occasions we see him bulk up to what appears to be the Ultra Super Saiyan 2 state he used when he sparred with Vegeta and then this blue aura shrinks back down and that aura out of all the possible colours and styles available just so happens to look like the Super Saiyan Blue has to have some big part in it.

If it actually is God Ki then it could explain why Trunks could not sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta but later could sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

in a later episode we can clearly see Vegeta activating some weird white glow around his base form

Which does also resemble the weird white glow around Goku's episode that we saw in the preview for tonight's episode. I'm not holding my breathe on any explanation of what it is though.

But then what about Great Saiyaman fighting Goku evenly? Was Base Gohan stronger than SS3 Gotenks there?

I'll say this once more, it seems Goku is just holding back against most opponents (Or that different writers have different opinions about his strength). That's why his power is entirely plot dependent. It seems Goku is simultaneously just a little bit stronger than his Buu arc self, a lot stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and stronger than BoG SSG Goku:

Current Gohan should be weaker as a Super Saiyan 2 than when he was Ultimate Gohan back in the Buu saga so nowhere close at all to SSJ3 Gotenks in Base form which of course makes it odd that Base Goku matched him. Though on the other hand the Resurrection F saga did make Base Gohan look stronger than Piccolo for some bizarre reason.

It's possible that he could be holding back a lot. We know for sure that Super Saiyan Blue Goku held back against Krillin to the extent that he could push back against him so it's not like it's impossible for Base Goku to have held back against Gohan especially when he's just sparring and they do keep saying he's a slow starter.

Isn't that exactly what Beerus did? He had an intense brief battle with Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, got hurt a little, had to block attacks etc and yet in reality he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 Goku and about on par with Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. So if he can do it and he can fight seriously whilst suppressing his power to a fraction then why can't Goku?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The problem with the ki leaking business is that the series uses auras to visualize the leaking as evidenced by Goku & Vegeta being unable to move in Whis' dimension until they get rid of them.

That's true. Weirdly enough they made a point of it during their training but then it never seemed to have any other purpose and was never brought up again. Goku didn't seem to be doing this trick when he fought Frieza in base anyway. There had to be something to it though, why exactly where they able to move in that other dimension after not letting it leak out?

The only other time it's been a thing was in the manga recently with Complete Super Saiyan Blue, he stopped his Ki from leaking out and so the aura disappeared.

I generally just assume that this power is the same kind of rage-boost that Vegeta had in BoG

I'd say that was part of it but that there was more to it than that otherwise he could have just stayed looking the same like Vegeta did. That on both occasions we see him bulk up to what appears to be the Ultra Super Saiyan 2 state he used when he sparred with Vegeta and then this blue aura shrinks back down and that aura out of all the possible colours and styles available just so happens to look like the Super Saiyan Blue has to have some big part in it.

If it actually is God Ki then it could explain why Trunks could not sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta but later could sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

in a later episode we can clearly see Vegeta activating some weird white glow around his base form

Which does also resemble the weird white glow around Goku's episode that we saw in the preview for tonight's episode. I'm not holding my breathe on any explanation of what it is though.

But then what about Great Saiyaman fighting Goku evenly? Was Base Gohan stronger than SS3 Gotenks there?

I'll say this once more, it seems Goku is just holding back against most opponents (Or that different writers have different opinions about his strength). That's why his power is entirely plot dependent. It seems Goku is simultaneously just a little bit stronger than his Buu arc self, a lot stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and stronger than BoG SSG Goku:

Current Gohan should be weaker as a Super Saiyan 2 than when he was Ultimate Gohan back in the Buu saga so nowhere close at all to SSJ3 Gotenks in Base form which of course makes it odd that Base Goku matched him. Though on the other hand the Resurrection F saga did make Base Gohan look stronger than Piccolo for some bizarre reason.

It's possible that he could be holding back a lot. We know for sure that Super Saiyan Blue Goku held back against Krillin to the extent that he could push back against him so it's not like it's impossible for Base Goku to have held back against Gohan especially when he's just sparring and they do keep saying he's a slow starter.

Isn't that exactly what Beerus did? He had an intense brief battle with Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, got hurt a little, had to block attacks etc and yet in reality he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 Goku and about on par with Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. So if he can do it and he can fight seriously whilst suppressing his power to a fraction then why can't Goku?

As to the Ki leaking thing, I actually addressed that particular point in my posts on a thread about SSB. Basically, I pointed out that it's not the auras that Whis drew attention to when he told Goku and Vegeta to not let their Ki leak out. Instead, the Ki leaking out is represented as something like steam occasionally coming off of their bodies when the two of them are fighting. The auras are only present in the staff dimension, and it could be that the dimension itself was sucking out their Ki because they weren't preventing leakage, thus resulting in "auras", albeit unintentional ones. This would handily explain why SSB still has an aura, since the aura isn't Ki leaking, it's just a visual representation of power.

As to SSRage Future Trunks, Vegeta managed to attain the power of SSG without any help from other Saiyans, so it's clearly possible to tap into that power on your own under the right conditions. Maybe Future Trunks, being so powerful and experiencing the same amazing rage-boosting power his father did, managed to tap into a little bit of that power using his rage to contain it, like how Goku and Vegeta use the method of complete Ki control to contain SSG's power in SS.

As to Gohan and Goku and whatnot, we already know that it's possible to use higher forms at lower levels of power. FPSS, when it first premiered, is one such example. Plus, Goku likes using SS, even against opponents where he doesn't need it like Krillin. As well, Gohan being around or slightly higher than Piccolo in base form isn't that unbelievable, even with SS1/2's multiplier. Mathematically, he can be as strong as SS3 Gotenks in SS2 and STILL be a chump compared to his original Ultimate power.

[Marlowe89]

The thing is, there's a pretty significant contextual difference between Goku's battle with Krillin and Goku's battle with Gohan. In both of his bouts with Gohan, Gohan made it clear that he wanted to see how his current strength measured against his father's and specifically asked Goku not to hold back. During the bout with Krillin, the dialogue specified that Goku is in fact holding back.

So I'd say it depends largely on the context of the scene and whoever Goku is fighting at the moment. Sometimes the writers distinctly clarify how much effort Goku puts into a battle, but sometimes they don't leave any indication at all (even visual ones) and that's when things can get a little tricky.

This would handily explain why SSB still has an aura, since the aura isn't Ki leaking, it's just a visual representation of power.

At the very least, the aura is definitely ki. Both Trunks and Zamasu refer to Super Saiyan Blue's aura as "divine ki/energy" during the previous arc, even noting its blue coloration.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This would handily explain why SSB still has an aura, since the aura isn't Ki leaking, it's just a visual representation of power.

At the very least, the aura is definitely ki. Both Trunks and Zamasu refer to Super Saiyan Blue's aura as "divine ki/energy" during the previous arc, even noting its blue coloration.

Well, the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Ki leaking is like steam, done over time, but it could be that an aura is a visual effect from a user's Ki flaring up. Basically, think of a light-bulb. The actual power generation is going on from within, but said power generation illuminates the area around it.

So, an aura is the Ki of a being flaring up intensely, lighting up the surrounding area of said being, with the colour dependent on the user's Ki composition. It's also a handy-dandy indicator as power, since, according to my light-bulb analogy, a flaring aura means that a user is putting out more Ki energy. The fighter is the light-bulb, and the visual Ki aura is the illumination.

[ekrolo2]

As to the Ki leaking thing, I actually addressed that particular point in my posts on a thread about SSB. Basically, I pointed out that it's not the auras that Whis drew attention to when he told Goku and Vegeta to not let their Ki leak out. Instead, the Ki leaking out is represented as something like steam occasionally coming off of their bodies when the two of them are fighting. The auras are only present in the staff dimension, and it could be that the dimension itself was sucking out their Ki because they weren't preventing leakage, thus resulting in "auras", albeit unintentional ones. This would handily explain why SSB still has an aura, since the aura isn't Ki leaking, it's just a visual representation of power.

Auras tend to be used when characters are flying around or hovering in place (not usually but it does happen quite a bit) so I really doubt their auras being present in the dimension is the dimension forcing their ki out. That sounds like something the show itself would come out and say through Goku or Vegeta. Rather, it just comes off as "auras are shit, get rid of them if you want to move around in this place".

This is one of those things we can go back and forth on but I really don't think the show wouldn't point out that a dimension is forcing their energy to do something they don't want if it was actually happening to them. It also doesn't help the anime when the manga also ditched the aura to showcase how someone can keep their ki from leaking out.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Auras tend to be used when characters are flying around or hovering in place (not usually but it does happen quite a bit) so I really doubt their auras being present in the dimension is the dimension forcing their ki out. That sounds like something the show itself would come out and say through Goku or Vegeta. Rather, it just comes off as "auras are shit, get rid of them if you want to move around in this place".

This is one of those things we can go back and forth on but I really don't think the show wouldn't point out that a dimension is forcing their energy to do something they don't want if it was actually happening to them.

The show was careful to show that Ki leaking was like steam wafting off the body,. And I just mentioned the "forcing out" thing as one possible explanation for why they can't move.

It could be that the aura is representing them trying to move with their Ki like they're trying to fly, but because they aren't preventing it from leaking (not the same as shutting off auras, as seen when Whis first teaches them this lesson), it immobilizes them until they do so. It's not necessarily that auras themselves mean Ki is leaking.

This is based on the whole "light-bulb" comparison I made above. I believe that an aura isn't actually Ki leaving the body, it's just a visual representation of the Ki within the body, visible from outside of it when it starts to flare up, like when powering up or using it for flight. If a fighter is a light-bulb, his Ki is the light contained within, and an aura is what illuminates out of it, lighting up the surroundings around the fighter.

So, when we see that godly aura of SSB, it's not the form leaking its power, its the form's God Ki lighting up brilliantly from the sheer power, thus emanating from the body as an illuminating glow. It just happens to be that a visual aura is also a handy-dandy measure of Ki thanks to the weirdness around Ki-sensing and Ki composition.

[ekrolo2]

Auras tend to be used when characters are flying around or hovering in place (not usually but it does happen quite a bit) so I really doubt their auras being present in the dimension is the dimension forcing their ki out. That sounds like something the show itself would come out and say through Goku or Vegeta. Rather, it just comes off as "auras are shit, get rid of them if you want to move around in this place".

This is one of those things we can go back and forth on but I really don't think the show wouldn't point out that a dimension is forcing their energy to do something they don't want if it was actually happening to them.

The show was careful to show that Ki leaking was like steam wafting off the body,. And I just mentioned the "forcing out" thing as one possible explanation for why they can't move.

It could be that the aura is representing them trying to move with their Ki like they're trying to fly, but because they aren't preventing it from leaking (not the same as shutting off auras, as seen when Whis first teaches them this lesson), it immobilizes them until they do so. It's not necessarily that auras themselves mean Ki is leaking.

This is based on the whole "light-bulb" comparison I made above. I believe that an aura isn't actually Ki leaving the body, and it's actually just a visual representation of the Ki within the body, visible from outside of it when it starts to flare up, like when powering up or using it for flight. If a fighter is a light-bulb, his Ki is the light contained within, and an aura is what illuminates out of it, lighting up the surroundings around the fighter.

So, when we see that godly aura of SSB, it's not the form leaking its power, its the form's God Ki lighting up brilliantly from the sheer power of the form illuminating from the body.

The steam you mention I'd sooner just call bits of the aura flashing out of their bodies since they're not properly keeping it inside them. That's another thing you tend to see happen at least in the manga and the latest chapter of SSBlue had it happen too when Goku focuses his power into a single limb or if his energy leaks out of his body by accident.

You might say it's not fair to use the manga for this but both versions of Super approach the concept of ki leaking as auras being unleashed from the body and that perfect ki control is learning how to do anything you can usually while keeping absolutely all of your energy inside your body.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Going back to this business about Super Saiyan Blue actually just being Super Saiyan when they don't let their Ki leak out again.

There's a blink and you'd miss it shot right in this video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDN_M7GKQk

...at about 37 seconds in where you see Trunks bulk up massively and then the blue SSJB looking aura comes out and he shrinks back down. It's like a few seconds before this gif, you might remember it.



There wouldn't be any connection there would there? In that this blue aura shrunk him back down because it stopped his Ki from leaking out? You see it happen twice and it just so happens to be the same kind of aura that appeared when Goku and Vegeta clashed fists and we saw that SSJB tease.

Well, based purely on what the show has given us, SSRage is, well the power of rage. Saiyans are notorious for pulling power-ups from this emotion. SS, SS2, Mutated SS2, raging SSB, and SSRage.

I generally just assume that this power is the same kind of rage-boost that Vegeta had in BoG, but it's MUCH greater because Future Trunks was that much stronger than Vegeta back then in his normal forms already, rivaling god-powered Goku and Vegeta (and my assumption here is that Goku and Vegeta were only retconned down to VERY STRONG levels in base and SS forms). Vegeta didn't keep his rage power, but Future Trunks did.

Maybe the blue-stuff is why SSRage was permanent. We don't know the specifics, but your explanation could be the case.

Super Saiyan Rage seems to stem off of Super Saiyan 2, just like Manga Trunks' Enhanced SS2 and Rageta's SS2.

Super Saiyan Blue is around the same power as Super Saiyan Rage, but a different approach.

[ChiefWamsutta]

As I mentioned here, before Goku turns Blue he first gains the regular Super Saiyan aura. An aura he didn't have the entire time when he fought Frieza because it was white. He looks like he's doing something with his Super Saiyan, possibly adding God Ki to it.

Which would mean if he hadn't added God Ki to it then he could have still turned into a regular Super Saiyan whilst with a strong Base form.

You can see it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHjjsckD30

I'm not really sure what that was supposed to be, but I certainly don't think it was Goku's Super Saiyan because he was clearly in base during that scene despite having a gold aura.

Now that I think about it, maybe that was Toei's visualization of Saiyan Beyond God? That would answer your objections about King Kai's statement as well as the fact that everyone could still sense his ki when he was fighting Final Form Frieza, but it could also mean that Final Form Frieza himself wasn't nearly as powerful as we thought. It is interesting to note that Goku's line about Blue being the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God was right after that.

In any case, there's no way of telling.

Bullza, I would disagree and say that there probably is not a lot of bearing to that yellow aura before Goku turns SSBlue. In the exact same arc and a few episodes later Vegeta turns into SSBlue, but the yellow aura is never shown. It is probably just a way to show going powering up stronger.

I don't think these small moments prove that there is a one-base theory, or anything. We saw Super Saiyan Rage Trunks that had yellow and blue aura. I don't think much can be stocked for the aura. It just means yellow aura is powerful, yellow aura with electricity is more powerful, and blue aura is the most powerful.

[DBZ Macky]

Yeah, Goku also had that kinda golden aura while fighting Cell and Freeza in GT. Even Krillin had golden aura in one of the movies IIRC.