Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It didn't happen with Vegeta or anyone else again. It was the first time the form was used so I wondered if they were trying to make some point with it. They didn't show Trunks bulk up and shrink down when he turned Super Saiyan Rage the other times for example.

Speaking of Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta though, remember when Mr Satan made Bra cry and he instantly turned Super Saiyan Blue? Does that mean Vegeta was in Saiyan Beyond God form when just standing there doing absolutely nothing while surrounded by only friends and family?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It didn't happen with Vegeta or anyone else again. It was the first time the form was used so I wondered if they were trying to make some point with it. They didn't show Trunks bulk up and shrink down when he turned Super Saiyan Rage the other times for example.

Speaking of Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta though, remember when Mr Satan made Bra cry and he instantly turned Super Saiyan Blue? Does that mean Vegeta was in Saiyan Beyond God form when just standing there doing absolutely nothing while surrounded by only friends and family?

On Future Trunks, they actually do show him bulking up then shrinking down again for SSRage after the initial transformation. For example, after Mai shoots Goku Black with Future Bulma's special bullet, we see him going SSRage and still doing the bulking-slimming thing.

As to SSB, I actually think the English dub of the RoF movie had a better explanation for the form. Basically, Goku explains that he got a taste of SSG's power, and then learns to tap into it all by himself. I prefer this interpretation and used it as part of my own explanation, because then there's no need for a second base in the first place. You have your own power, and then you can tap into SSG's power with SS.

Goku gains this power by absorbing SSG into himself, whilst Vegeta does it on his own by training under Whis.

[Bullza]

On Future Trunks, they actually do show him bulking up then shrinking down again for SSRage after the initial transformation. For example, after Mai shoots Goku Black with Future Bulma's special bullet, we see him going SSRage and still doing the bulking-slimming thing.

Yeah I stand corrected. I knew about that example because that was from the gif I posted on the last page but he didn't do that when he transformed and used the mafuba on Zamasu but he did do it just before he attacked Merged Zamasu when he had the Halo.

It's a weirdly specific way if transforming at the least I do think that blue aura is what shrinks him back down.

Basically, Goku explains that he got a taste of SSG's power, and then learns to tap into it all by himself.

Well isn't that like what King Kai said in Super? When Goku turns Blue, King Kai said he'd learned how to become a Super Saiyan God on his own without the help of other Saiyans.

[Lord Beerus]

All of the Universe 9 guys are at the very least Base Goku/Vegeta. Whether it was against 2 v 1 or taking on the Trio De Dangers at the same time, Base Goku or Vegeta seemed to be not able to get the job done.

Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan changes everything.

SSJ Goku and Vegeta eliminate several Universe 9 fighters the same time.

SSJ Goku and Vegeta beat around Trio De Danger like they're nothing.

Both Goku and Vegeta go SSJB to go full blown overkill and instantly win a beam struggle and eliminate Trio De Dangers simultaneously.

None of Universe 9 are SSJ level. They all got demolished easily by SSJ Goku and Vegeta. Excluding one Universe 9 fighter, the cat-lady with long nails, that got eliminated by Base Vegeta. Universe 9 is full of scrubs.

[Zamasu55]

All of the Universe 9 guys are at the very least Base Goku/Vegeta. Whether it was against 2 v 1 or taking on the Trio De Dangers at the same time, Base Goku or Vegeta seemed to be not able to get the job done.

Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan changes everything.

SSJ Goku and Vegeta eliminate several Universe 9 fighters the same time.

SSJ Goku and Vegeta beat around Trio De Danger like they're nothing.

Both Goku and Vegeta go SSJB to go full blown overkill and instantly win a beam struggle and eliminate Trio De Dangers simultaneously.

None of Universe 9 are SSJ level. They all got demolished easily by SSJ Goku and Vegeta. Excluding one Universe 9 fighter, the cat-lady with long nails, that got eliminated by Base Vegeta. Universe 9 is full of scrubs.

We already knew that.

[Bullza]

Yeah it looks like all of Universe 9 were below Base Saiyan strength which is actually how it should be because I'm sure that they did already say that the Trio De Dangers were the strongest in Universe 9 and this episode did make it look that way too. I guess Lavender did so well against Super Saiyan Gohan because of the poison after all.

They went Super Saiyan due to being outnumbered from the looks of it. They sorta stomped them all after that.

Again they went Super Saiyan Blue, really no need for them to at all. Just like the last episode just Super Saiyan would have been enough. I hate how it's being so overused now.

Frieza was stronger than Napapa which is how it should be because he struggled with Basil.

Android 18 beat the Bunny?

That weird glow they had in Base form was just a Ki barrier.

Did Base Vegeta smack one of them so hard it broke up the floor? If so that'd be impressive considering what it's made of.

The preview showed Krillin giving that green bird a run for his money.

I think that's about it.

[Zamasu55]

The dragon fighter seemed to have a Meta-Cooler type body... I suppose that's good.

Hyssop can freeze enemies. Interesting.

Pretty sad they're gone, but those two had interesting feats.

[Marlowe89]

Individually the Trio De Dangers are weaker than the base Saiyans, but that ultimate combination attack of theirs seemed to yield power greater than Super Saiyan strength. I'd say they're at their most threatening when they combine their power, so that would explain why they were called the strongest fighters of Universe 9.

It's interesting that Basil and Bergamo were actually stronger during the exhibition match though, since back then they at least had the benefit of drugs or weird abilities powering them up.

[Cetra]

Base Goku or Vegeta seemed to be not able to get the job done.

Like it is often in the show. I do not trust this kind of logic for Dragon Ball.

[Marlowe89]

As far as I'm concerned, this episode also provides even further verification that base Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be much stronger than their Buu Saga selves if we disregard the theoretical second base.

Universe 9's warriors were weaker but still close enough in strength to the base Saiyans that they could overwhelm them 2 vs. 1, and the fact that Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to regain the upper hand while outnumbered further confirms this. Base Goku in particular couldn't do anything to Cheppil's armor, needed a ki barrier to defend against Lavender and appeared to be fighting at a fairly even pace with Bergamo and the others individually.

However, in the exhibition match, Lavender needed his poison just to get the upper hand against base Gohan -- this was before Gohan regained his Ultimate power. Basil needed strength-enhancing drugs just to compete with Majin Buu and he still wasn't nearly strong enough.

Therefore, I'd wager that base Goku and Vegeta are more or less equal to base Gohan with Buu being much stronger than all of them.

[LowRyder2005]

As far as I'm concerned, this episode also provides even further verification that base Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be much stronger than their Buu Saga selves if we disregard the theoretical second base.

Universe 9's warriors were weaker but still close enough in strength to the base Saiyans that they could overwhelm them 2 vs. 1, and the fact that Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to regain the upper hand while outnumbered further confirms this. Base Goku in particular couldn't do anything to Cheppil's armor, needed a ki barrier to defend against Lavender and appeared to be fighting at a fairly even pace with Bergamo and the others individually.

However, in the exhibition match, Lavender needed his poison just to get the upper hand against base Gohan -- this was before Gohan regained his Ultimate power. Basil needed strength-enhancing drugs just to compete with Majin Buu and he still wasn't nearly strong enough.

Therefore, I'd wager that base Goku and Vegeta are more or less equal to base Gohan with Buu being much stronger than all of them.

The phrase has been thrown every now and then in this thread, often at really minor occasions; however this episode constitutes conclusive evidence in regards to the retcon/two-base theory being a thing in the show. There's just no way to reasonably claim that even pre-training Majin Buu was weaker than the base Goku/ Gohan we saw at the exhibition after this. It also sounds way too convenient for Majin Buu to become as strong as Gotenks-Buu or more completely off screen, with the matter also being left unacknowledged by the writers or made apparent for the viewer.

People should - and I suppose the vast majority will - henceforth start accepting it and use it as a premise in debates. If it ever was debatable after the exhibition matches and the mountain of underlying headscratchers pertaining to a streamlined approach were not enough, that is.
The funniest aspect of the "reveal" is that just the other day both me and Bullza were having the umpteenth discussion about regular Basil's strength being supposedly comparable to Buu's.

[Hellspawn28]

Also Goku has to go Super Saiyan Blue to escape this green monster looking guy from U4's headlock, I find it weird that Goku doesn't even try to use any of his lower forms like Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 but if Goku really needed Blue then this guy is quite powerful.

Probably because Nink is really strong since he took no damage when Goku punch him in the face more than once. The power gab between Super and DBZ is so huge now.

[LowRyder2005]

Also Goku has to go Super Saiyan Blue to escape this green monster looking guy from U4's headlock, I find it weird that Goku doesn't even try to use any of his lower forms like Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 but if Goku really needed Blue then this guy is quite powerful.

Probably because Nink is really strong since he took no damage when Goku punch him in the face more than once. The power gab between Super and DBZ is so huge now.

If anything, I'd definitely argue it might be quite the contrary: every episode so far seems to reinforce the notion that - bar a few compelling cases (i.e. SSB's, Toppo, Hit, Freeza, Hakaishins) - Toei has been much concerned with keeping fighters who aren't in leagues with the "god tiers" relevant, lately. Putting aside the slightly more debatable cases like Gohan and #17 you have people like Majin Buu, Piccolo, 18, Roshi, Tien and Krillin sharing the spotlight with others, when they're most definitely not that much different from their DBZ counterparts.

You also have an entire universe, albeit the least powerful, which could barely compete with the base Saiyans.
Regarding Goku going Blue it's for the same reason he went Blue to teleport into space during the episode of the space poachers. It's literally as random as it gets. I wouldn't be surprised if turning Super Saiyan would've achieved the same effect of shrugging the opponent off his back.

[AvatarReiko]

Anyone else find it weird that Boku cannot punch through Iron? Even back in DB, he could easily obliterate huge boulders with his head, kicks and punches

[Ki Breaker]

Anyone else find it weird that Boku cannot punch through Iron? Even back in DB, he could easily obliterate huge boulders with his head, kicks and punches

That's natural iron skin, it's stability, toughness, malleability should far exceed the iron we know of..
At least that's the only way it makes sense

[Bullza]

The next episode looks like Android 18 might fight Frost.

Considering that Piccolo was significantly weaker than a weakened Frost and he's improved since then then you'd think Android 18 wouldn't stand a chance.

If she's able to hold her own at all though when Vegeta had to transform to beat him then it could point further towards two bases.

[Saturnine]

The next episode looks like Android 18 might fight Frost.

Considering that Piccolo was significantly weaker than a weakened Frost and he's improved since then then you'd think Android 18 wouldn't stand a chance.

If she's able to hold her own at all though when Vegeta had to transform to beat him then it could point further towards two bases.

If he was significantly weaker, he wouldn't have been able to hold him down with his arm, and earlier outright dodge his punches. Amirite?

[DBZ Macky]

Two-base theory and insane training gains be damned, 18 doesn't even hold a candle to Frost.

[The Monkey King]

Anyone else find it weird that Boku cannot punch through Iron? Even back in DB, he could easily obliterate huge boulders with his head, kicks and punches

Considering Vegeta smashed part of the katchin arena in the same episode, I wouldn't think about it too much.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, from what I've been getting, power-scaling really only factored in to a small extent, like SS being stronger than base and SSB being even stronger.

Besides that, Universe 9 was called a bunch of weaklings by Beerus, and they were soundly gaining the upper hand against Goku and Vegeta thanks to their SKILL, not their power. They coordinated their attacks and constantly kept the two of them off-guard, helped by how their Ki can't be sensed.

I know this isn't satisfactory for people who like to really power-scale, but this is the reality of the Tournament of Power.