Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

At the very least, we can deduce that Universe 9 Fighters << SS2 Goku (Zamasu Arc) = SS2 Trunks (Vs. Goku), who was able to impress Beerus. Though we already knew that, I suppose.

They made a big deal out of Bergamo not using his true power against Goku, but he just ended up appearing weaker than he did at the tournament. Plus he didn't even power-up from Goku's attack. What the hell?

Also, Liquiir and co. apparently did a very sloppy job of fixing the arena, or Great Priest really underestimated Vegeta's destructive capabilities.

EDIT: Also, the U9 guys seemed relative to the Base Saiyans. Ginyu said Goku could trounce Burter and Jiece (who were stated to be about even with Recoome, who was able to no-sell attacks from a Vegeta at 30k) with a BP of 60k. So for the U9 guys to give trouble to Goku and co. when they gang up on them, they'd at least have to be 1/2 as strong as Base Goku & Vegeta. Yet, Android 18 took out one of those guys off-screen.

Either Android 18 and Base Saiyans aren't too apart, or 18 just "trained".

[buutenks]

Anyone else find it weird that Boku cannot punch through Iron? Even back in DB, he could easily obliterate huge boulders with his head, kicks and punches

Vegeta destroyed Kachi-katchin, so just ignore the iron thing.

[Shinda Forever]

Anyone else find it weird that Boku cannot punch through Iron? Even back in DB, he could easily obliterate huge boulders with his head, kicks and punches

Yeah man, maybe because Goku wasn't focusing his ki correctly like they did in the Cooler movie.

The trio of dangers should have fought the trio of Earthlings, that would be tight and epic. Goku and Vegeta fighting them alone makes no sense since they are so much more powerful.

[Marlowe89]

Besides that, Universe 9 was called a bunch of weaklings by Beerus, and they were soundly gaining the upper hand against Goku and Vegeta thanks to their SKILL, not their power. They coordinated their attacks and constantly kept the two of them off-guard, helped by how their Ki can't be sensed.

There are extended periods of one-on-one fighting in the episode. Bergamo was holding his own against Goku before his brothers joined in at the beginning. Hop was able to dodge Vegeta's attacks and briefly had him on the ropes before Lavender came to her aid. Also in Episode 81, Bergamo was doing perfectly fine against base Goku before absorbing his power; the latter even commented "That was close" after managing to block an attack, so Goku only had a slight advantage at best.

While I agree that there's an increased emphasis on skill in Super, it's flat-out incorrect to say that it completely overrides the power-scaling. The entire point of Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan and instantly stomping all of them at once was to show that the Saiyans were in a completely different league than Universe 9 regardless of Universe 9's skill thanks specifically to their transformations and accompanied power. Strategy usually only takes precedence if both combatants are closer in strength.

[Shinda Forever]

Besides that, Universe 9 was called a bunch of weaklings by Beerus, and they were soundly gaining the upper hand against Goku and Vegeta thanks to their SKILL, not their power. They coordinated their attacks and constantly kept the two of them off-guard, helped by how their Ki can't be sensed.

There are extended periods of one-on-one fighting in the episode. Bergamo was holding his own against Goku before his brothers joined in at the beginning. Hop was able to dodge Vegeta's attacks and briefly had him on the ropes before Lavender came to her aid. Also in Episode 81, Bergamo was doing perfectly fine against base Goku before absorbing his power; the latter even commented "That was close" after managing to block an attack, so Goku only had a slight advantage at best.

While I agree that there's an increased emphasis on skill in Super, it's flat-out incorrect to say that it completely overrides the power-scaling. The entire point of Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan and instantly stomping all of them at once was to show that the Saiyans were in a completely different league than Universe 9 regardless of Universe 9's skill thanks specifically to their transformations and accompanied power. Strength can still take precedence over strategy if the gap is wide enough.

Extended? They were doing stupid comments all the time taking the flow from the fighting.

[Marlowe89]

Extended? They were doing stupid comments all the time taking the flow from the fighting.

Allow me to rephrase that. By "extended", I mean a bit longer than just a few short seconds.

[Bullza]

Vegeta destroyed Kachi-katchin, so just ignore the iron thing.

Yeah I just double checked that myself. Base Vegeta hit that cat lady so hard he broke up the Kachi-Katchin stage. Metal so hard that it had to be tested out by the God's of Destruction. Wouldn't that mean Base Vegeta was pretty damn strong?

Then again Piccolo broke through Vado's barrier so it probably doesn't mean too much.

[Animelover5487]

At the very least, we can deduce that Universe 9 Fighters << SS2 Goku (Zamasu Arc) = SS2 Trunks (Vs. Goku), who was able to impress Beerus. Though we already knew that, I suppose.

They made a big deal out of Bergamo not using his true power against Goku, but he just ended up appearing weaker than he did at the tournament. Plus he didn't even power-up from Goku's attack. What the hell?

Also, Liquiir and co. apparently did a very sloppy job of fixing the arena, or Great Priest really underestimated Vegeta's destructive capabilities.

EDIT: Also, the U9 guys seemed relative to the Base Saiyans. Ginyu said Goku could trounce Burter and Jiece (who were stated to be about even with Recoome, who was able to no-sell attacks from a Vegeta at 30k) with a BP of 60k. So for the U9 guys to give trouble to Goku and co. when they gang up on them, they'd at least have to be 1/2 as strong as Base Goku & Vegeta. Yet, Android 18 took out one of those guys off-screen.

Either Android 18 and Base Saiyans aren't too apart, or 18 just "trained".

....Or the bunny girl is one of the weakest fighters on U9, which is very likely the case.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

One thing I could never understand was Sidra's power.

We know he obviously possesses a fearsome power being a Hakaishin, but how would he compare to to guys like Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Vegeta, and Golden Freeza?

Sidra regarded Super Saiyan Blue Goku and U7 as "terrifying" upon seeing him. That gave me the impression that Sidra might not be too far above that level, if he is at all.

So, based on what we do know, how powerful do you think Sidra is?

[DBZ Macky]

....Or the bunny girl is one of the weakest fighters on U9, which is very likely the case.

That sure is convenient, isn't it? The other U9 fighters gave Goku and Vegeta trouble, but this specific character is more than a 1,000x weaker than the others.

One thing I could never understand was Sidra's power.

We know he obviously possesses a fearsome power being a Hakaishin, but how would he compare to to guys like Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Vegeta, and Golden Freeza?

Sidra regarded Super Saiyan Blue Goku and U7 as "terrifying" upon seeing him. That gave me the impression that Sidra might not be too far above that level, if he is at all.

So, based on what we do know, how powerful do you think Sidra is?

Rou stated that SSB Goku's power rivaled the Gods (possibly implying SSB Goku is close in power to Sidra) and he also doubted Sidra's ability to destroy Freeza. Sidra himself does seem pretty terrified by Goku and Freeza's power. Sure, he used "some" of his power for that Hakai Ball, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he used only 10% of his power or something. It could very well be ~80% of his power or something.

[emperior]

I feel like this episode basically confirmed Goku and Vegeta either have no longer access to their God powered base form, or they refuse to use it for some reason, or Super's power levels really are incredibly bloated and there is only one base.
If there's only one base, then that base would be only as strong as Buu arc Ultimate Gohan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I feel like this episode basically confirmed Goku and Vegeta either have no longer access to their God powered base form, or they refuse to use it for some reason, or Super's power levels really are incredibly bloated and there is only one base.
If there's only one base, then that base would be only as strong as Buu arc Ultimate Gohan.

This is why I don't try to extrapolate any hard power levels from the Tournament of Power, at least not until it's made abundantly clear, such as certain characters having clear one-on-one slugfests like DBZ-old.

The chaos of the tournament, along with the emphasis of coordinated attacks and tactics, are the handwave given for the lax power-scaling.

[Marlowe89]

I don't get what's supposed to be "lax" about it. Universe 9's standing was made abundantly clear -- their best fighters were a little beneath the base Saiyans individually as the one-on-one scenarios show, above the base Saiyans while teaming up, and vastly beneath the Super Saiyans. There was nothing remotely vague or ambiguous going on in this episode in regards to power scaling.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Rou stated that SSB Goku's power rivaled the Gods (possibly implying SSB Goku is close in power to Sidra) and he also doubted Sidra's ability to destroy Freeza. Sidra himself does seem pretty terrified by Goku and Freeza's power. Sure, he used "some" of his power for that Hakai Ball, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he used only 10% of his power or something. It could very well be ~80% of his power or something.

Hmmm...makes sense. I suppose it's best to just regard Sidra as being in the same realm of power as Goku and Freeza.

I always assumed any Hakaishin would be far above a level like Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Freeza, but Rou's comments definitely make me believe otherwise now.

[TAF108]

While I've advocated my position on the two-base theory before, I don't think there's any prerequisite for Goku going to Blue, in general. So far he's gone directly from base to Blue, SSJ to Blue, and SSJ2 to Blue. I think it's pretty much confirmed that Goku can go from any form to Blue. We haven't seen him go from SSJ3 to Blue yet, but considering the latter that I just mentioned, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

I'm not familiar with the two-base theory mechanics, but does Goku being able to just go Blue ruin it, or something?

The two base theory generally asserts that if Goku goes SS off of his weak base, he ends up in the golden haired line of transformations, while if he goes SS off of his "godly" base, he ends up as SSB. I think many of us would have , with good reason, assumed that Goku would start the ToP in his weak base (Goku using SS1 in previews, etc.), and Nink doesn't seem like the sharpest or strongest tool in the shed, so when he goes SSB directly from base, one of the 3 possibilities I listed in the post you quoted must be true, in my estimation. It seems like two base theorists are concluding, in large part, that Nink was just that strong. I lean more towards Goku going weak base - strong base - SSB instantly as he is about to be knocked off.

That said, I'm actively trying to brew up a comprehensive one base theory with as few retcons as possible, but I don't have tons of spare time, unfortunately.

I see. Kinda interesting. Sorry that I don't have much to add here, I was just curious as someone who doesn't subscribe to the theory.

[Animelover5487]

....Or the bunny girl is one of the weakest fighters on U9, which is very likely the case.

That sure is convenient, isn't it? The other U9 fighters gave Goku and Vegeta trouble, but this specific character is more than a 1,000x weaker than the others.

Where did you get a the 1,000x weaker figure from? Everyone in U9 is weaker than Base Goku/Vegeta, they could only compete with them through teamwork and coordinated attacks. Basil was stated to be one of the strongest fighters and even he didn't stand a chance against Mr. Boo without the drugs. I doubt the gap between Mr. Boo and #18 is over a thousand times, especially since 18 has been training relentlessly for the tournament and is likely much stronger than she was in Z.

[TAF108]

I find it hilarious how GT Goku and Super Goku are BOTH leagues ahead of SS3 Gotenks... in their fucking base forms! It's like Toei was just waiting for the perfect oppurtunity to fuck over whatever future those kids had as fighters or even characters in general.

Oh, and then there's shit like SS Goku (Vs. Super 17) being wayyy stronger than SS3 Goku. Like what the fuck Toei?
It's similar in DBS, where SSG Goku <= SS Goku < Base Goku when he runs out of SSG against Beerus.

Long story short, I definitely don't care whether "filler" exists in Super or not. If Goku's stronger than the entirety of Z in his base form, then it's definitely not Toriyama's idea or vision (at least when he has the future of the series in mind. There's a reason we didn't have Goku absorb God's powers in the Manga, IMO).

This is Toei. Overrating base Saiyans and having Goku simultaneously stronger AND weaker than some characters (mostly Gohan) is pretty much what's written in their resumé.

If you seriously want to make sense out of this mess without using the 2-base theory, then you might as well try making sense of GT first. The power scale is fucked up and even the writers (like Toshio) aren't sure whether certain characters are supposed to be stronger or weaker than others.

Using "head-canon" isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially when the show tells you jack, and when it does state something, it just adds more fuel to the confusion.

While I've tried and failed to make sense of certain things in Super, GT as my signature would imply is something I can get a handle on without to much issues.

So for GT I think the powerscaling it's pretty self-explanatory, Son Goku and the other members of the Z-Fighters do the same, keeping the levels of progression relatively the same. (Though this moderate, no one gains quite as much as Goku does.) For the thing you mentioned, Goku had a year between his fight with Bebi and the fight with 17, which was enough time for him to train and become massively stronger. I estimate Goku's base form gets around 64x stronger, which then translates to a SSJ form that can surpass his SSJ3 self from the previous arc.

But more to the point here, I think it's just the case of maybe them not having a consistent idea of who should be stronger than who, as you mentioned. Which if you think about it, is a problem Toei has always had. If you look at the Tree of Might film, Tullece was shown to be able to casually kill Oozaru Gohan (who going by the films logic would have a power level of 100,000.), yet he ran away scared of Goku who was fighting him with a mere "30,000 and skyrocketing." In the Coola films, Coola constantly praises Goku's power, sizing him up as the guy who defeated Freeza. Meanwhile, Coola himself doesn't surpass Freeza until he reaches his 5th form. All of the Broli movies are messed up. Ki from the Z Fighters helps Goku one-shot Broli (even if we assume it's Genki, still seems like a stretch), in the second film Goten and Trunks can endure SSJ Broli, while Base Gohan can fight on par with him. Then you get the anime, where Kid Boo & Goku are basically deities.

We're kinda at a point where scaling past the Boo Saga is just an odd task. Though, I think it's just in the direction. Going by the shows previously established logic, Goku should've been able to handle the Trio in his base form easily, aside from maybe Bergamo. The idea of the 3 working in tandem is great in theory, but doesn't really work when you consider the gap in their powers. While Goku can't sense them, two of the 3 should be far slower than him. Even working together, it shouldn't really work unless one is a distraction.

I think it's important to keep in mind that in Dragon Ball, teaming up usually doesn't work unless there's an ulterior motive like stalling. The Freeza Saga is a great example. Try as they might, Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo couldn't hit true form Freeza. I find that analogy fitting as the power difference their is vaguely similar. Likewise however, amped Piccolo was useful in giving Goku time for the Genkidama. So I think it's just in how the scene was written, that it seems odd. The thing that gets me is them clearly using SSJ and the SSJB for a power advantge in the fight, it just seems excessive.

I'd say maybe trying to scale is just a almost insurmountable task, unless we consider some alternatives. Like the two-base theory as you mentioned.

[Almighty Majin]

I think Goku and Vegeta's bases are not as strong as SSJG, but stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as other people have mentioned here. I

But then what about Great Saiyaman fighting Goku evenly? Was Base Gohan stronger than SS3 Gotenks there?

Ah I knew this was going to be brought up. This does throw a wrench into the whole thing and this is really Toei's fault for not knowing what to do with Gohan. It seems that Toriyama's outline portrays Gohan as someone who is severely lacking in power, but the Toei material that is added seems to show otherwise. So basically we end up with a Gohan who is supposed to be weaker, but shows off feats that would suggest otherwise. This also includes the promotional material for the exhibition match saying that he is "ultimate" but then later on in the arc he has to achieve that power again. Not really sure what to do with Gohan, but I tend to say that his "ultimate" base is just the result of him training with Piccolo and then "Potential Unleashed" is the state he achieved in the Buu arc with all of his latent power + extra training released. I believe Gohan's power was there after he trained with Piccolo, but still had to get over his mental blocks as he felt he still wasn't strong enough after seeing his father's strength. It's strange to put it that way, but that's how I put it even though it's confusing to explain.

I'll say this once more, it seems Goku is just holding back against most opponents (Or that different writers have different opinions about his strength). That's why his power is entirely plot dependent. It seems Goku is simultaneously just a little bit stronger than his Buu arc self, a lot stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and stronger than BoG SSG Goku:

Stuff that suggest SSB Goku >>> SS3 Gotenks >>> Base Goku >~ Buu arc Goku
*Goku not absorbing God's power in the Manga
Goku implied to have almost hit his limit and not improving much in the RoSaT
The possibility of Cabba and co. being much stronger than SS3 Gotenks being very, very unlikely
Base/SS Goku vs. Base/SS Great Saiyaman
Base/SS Goku vs. Krillin

Well Goku did train with Whis afterwards. I tend to not take the whole "I'm at my limit" thing seriously since that seems to get broken usually although it could be that Goku hit his limit before training with Whis as conventional training was not giving him much and needed something new and challenging like Whis' training to increase his overall power.
While Cabba being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks sounds rather ridiculous, he is an elite Saiyan warrior and one of the strongest from U6 who came from a race of evolved Saiyans. It could simply be that as a result of not knowing of any transformations that the Saiyans have no choice but to increase their base forms and that being an elite evolved Saiyan, he can attain that sort of power in his base. In case of Vegeta calling him a weakling: that was to provoke him and as well as to express his disdain that this Saiyan being one of the strongest, didn't even have any transformations.
There is also in the manga where Goku is image training and uses SSJ to fight Freeza, Cell, and Kid Buu which could suggest that pre-BoG Goku could possibly be 8x stronger than what he was in the Buu arc and that + Whis' training can bring him to a higher level in base.

Stuff that suggest SSB Goku >~ SS3 Goku >~ SS2 Goku >~ SS Goku ~ SSG Goku >> Base Goku >> Entirety of Z
*SS Goku surpassing a suppressed Hit in power and faring better than 10% SSB Vegeta in the Manga
Base Copy-Vegeta tanking SS3 Gotenks' kick
Base Goku Black's full power (stated to rival SS3 Goku) being a "little" stronger than Black when he was fighting evenly with SS2 Goku
Gowasu suggesting SS2 Goku's power rivals a Hakaishin
SS Goku deflecting Whis's Ki Blast
Base Goku being defeated by Fit Buu but still seeming to be somewhat on par with him
Base Goku tanking Piccolo's amplified attack (who was on par with SS2 Gohan)
Base Goku fighting evenly with Uub at the End of Z, where it's debatable that Uub was equal to Kid Buu in power
Super still not being much different from practically every Toei-heralded project despite Toriyama's involvement

Stuff that suggest SSB Goku >~ SS Goku ~ Base Goku ~ SSG Goku
Base/SS Goku fighting Beerus almost as well as (if not better than) SSG Goku
Base Goku surviving Beerus's "unrestrained" blast while training with Whis
Goku holding his own against Hit
Base Goku and Freeza exchanging blows and appearing to be equal
Goku managing to keep up with Golden Freeza's speed
Goku surviving Sidra's Hakai Ball

Does Goku necessarily need to be SSJG level or higher to preform those feats? (Not the Beerus ones)

*(assuming that the Manga's power scale is similar to the Anime, despite the differences in the execution of plot-points)

Also, Krillin and Gohan were able to see Goku's movements against Beerus, but not against Botamo. So unless Botamo's stronger than BoG Beerus, the "being able to see movements" is not very reliable evidence. After all, that'd depend on the way the fighters are fighting, not their power. If Botamo wants to randomly jump in the ring, then it's gonna be difficult to follow him.

So, which approach do you like the most?

I still like the second approach there, I do understand however why others go for the other ones. It seems that the problem with Super is that Goku and Vegeta are constantly increasing in power, but it seems that the power scale is still kept relatively the same (i.e. humans being relative to base Saiyans, Piccolo being SSJ level or higher, Freeza still = to base Goku, Future Trunks = to Goku and Vegeta) so everyone's power gets inflated as a result and Toei tries to remedy this poorly by saying that the characters simply trained.

I want to talk about the U9 fighters here too. Basil is weaker than base Goku and Vegeta since he was struggling against Napapa who was shown to be easily beaten by Freeza. Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that Hyssop (ice guy) was fighting Nink equally early on which means that both Hyssop and Nink are stronger than the base Saiyans but weaker than their SSJ forms. Everyone else in U9 is relative to the base Saiyans being either sweaker or slightly stronger, but no one exceeds SSJ except Bergamo when he uses his ability to absorb power.

[Bullza]

So, based on what we do know, how powerful do you think Sidra is?

Probably not too far away from Goku and Beerus at all. With that talk about the mortal who is above the God of Destruction then it's highly probable that Jiren is the one above Belmoud and Beerus.

Goku's gonna get a new form and he's bound to fight Jiren with it and give him a run for his money so he'll probably be stronger than most the Gods of Destruction by then.

Also, Krillin and Gohan were able to see Goku's movements against Beerus, but not against Botamo. So unless Botamo's stronger than BoG Beerus, the "being able to see movements" is not very reliable evidence.

Additionally Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin could see SSJG Goku when he was fighting Beerus on Earth but they could not see Base Goku fighting Frieza. If you remember Jaco could see them fight and that was where the whole thing about his extraordinary sight started.

That said that would have been a low end SSJG Goku, one who couldn't even see Beerus' punches yet, not the high end SSJG Goku who had surpassed his limits a few times.

[avasatu]

While I've advocated my position on the two-base theory before, I don't think there's any prerequisite for Goku going to Blue, in general. So far he's gone directly from base to Blue, SSJ to Blue, and SSJ2 to Blue. I think it's pretty much confirmed that Goku can go from any form to Blue. We haven't seen him go from SSJ3 to Blue yet, but considering the latter that I just mentioned, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

I'm not familiar with the two-base theory mechanics, but does Goku being able to just go Blue ruin it, or something?

The two base theory generally asserts that if Goku goes SS off of his weak base, he ends up in the golden haired line of transformations, while if he goes SS off of his "godly" base, he ends up as SSB. I think many of us would have , with good reason, assumed that Goku would start the ToP in his weak base (Goku using SS1 in previews, etc.), and Nink doesn't seem like the sharpest or strongest tool in the shed, so when he goes SSB directly from base, one of the 3 possibilities I listed in the post you quoted must be true, in my estimation. It seems like two base theorists are concluding, in large part, that Nink was just that strong. I lean more towards Goku going weak base - strong base - SSB instantly as he is about to be knocked off.

That said, I'm actively trying to brew up a comprehensive one base theory with as few retcons as possible, but I don't have tons of spare time, unfortunately.

I see. Kinda interesting. Sorry that I don't have much to add here, I was just curious as someone who doesn't subscribe to the theory.

I don't subscribe to it either anymore. In fact, watching episode 24 of the dub basically sealed the deal for me that Goku has a single base, and at the time of his fight with the revived Frieza, his base is > Kid Buu. If you mix manga and anime together, that's an over 50x increase since the start of super up until episode 24, and I'd guess it's even quite a bit higher than that. I think it's pretty clear now that Goku never absorbed the full power of SSG, at least permanently, and that as it stands, his base is anywhere from Buu arc Kid Buu to Buu arc Ultimate Gohan or even a little beyond.