Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:29 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Nah, the power stats themselves in DBH and Super DBH are pretty meaningless. There are actually Saibamen that compete with the current base Saiyans.

I meant the story involving Super Dragon Ball Heroes. Base Trunks easily beats a powered up Frieza who beat Super Saiyan Goku. Base Vegeta easily beats a powered up Super Perfect Cell who beat Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

I don't know what continuity it's supposed to be following but it has the super strong Base too. That new opening had them fuse into Gogeta and turn Super Saiyan.

avasatu · Post by **avasatu** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:56 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
avasatu wrote:Lastly, let's not forget that the manga heavily implies SS1 Goku is roughly Kid Buu level at the beginning of Super. Sure, it's the manga, but it attempts to show us something the show doesn't in that case.
You keep bringing that up, but I think you might be mistaken (or I might be, lol). IIRC, SS Goku one-shot both Freeza and Cell but wasn't able to win against Buu, and seemed to be losing the fight before being interrupted.

If SS1 Goku effortlessly one shots who I assume is SPC, and Kid Buu is no more than 8-10 times SPC (I can scale this in at least 2 different ways), I think we can say Goku is at least in the realm of Kid Buu as an SS1. Why would he bother mentally training with him, anyway? The writer's intent, in my opinion, is to show that SS1 Goku is at least in the realm of Kid/Fat Buu at the beginning of Super. It's too convenient that one of the first shots we get is Goku training. It's almost like Toyo is doing what he should be doing...establishing a rough power level for the protagonist relative to how we last saw him. To me, it makes no sense to even bother including that page if SS1 Goku isn't nicely between 50% and 100% of Fat/Kid Buu (I place them at about the same level). In summary, I think it's conservative to say SS1 Goku is 50%+ of Fat Buu at the beginning of Super.

Fat Buu beats steroid infused Basil somewhat easily, who seems to be only slightly below Base Goku. Let's take all that at face value. This means current base Goku is noticeably weaker than untrained Fat Buu. Enter Frieza. Base Frieza ~ Base Goku in RoF. We then see that Imperfect Golden Frieza carries a higher multiplier to Frieza's final form than SSB does to Goku's base. Now, Golden Frieza has currently mastered his peak form, meaning this multiplier is likely higher. If True Golden Frieza ~ current SSB Goku, we deduce easily that base Goku is stronger than final form Frieza, though possibly not by much. Let's again be conservative and state only what we can state with absolute certainty. Base Goku >= final form Frieza, currently. Let's say they are equal to reasonably account for any small errors in judgement there.

Now, Basil, who is portrayed to be only somewhat below Bergamo, cannot ring out Napapa, but comes close, while Frieza effortless stomps Napapa in final form. If we slightly wank Basil to Napapa level, this means Goku is only somewhat above Napapa. But if he's also equal to final form Frieza, at the very least, then this is a contradiction. Conclusion: base Goku, in a 1v1 fight, must be well-above Basil. I don't see how you escape this. And it makes perfect sense with what episode 98 tells us, along with what Beerus says. I can maybe give you guys that Bergamo is close to base Goku, but Basil has to be noticeably weaker.

Now, how does Buu tie into this? If I use my lowball of SS1 Beginning-of-Super Goku being half of Buu, then SS2 B-O-Super Goku ~ Buu. That means that, at the inception of the show, Goku has gotten ~4 times stronger than End of Buu arc. Pretty reasonable, to be honest. After undergoing multiple intense, unique, life altering trainings with Whis, an exposure to god ki and Beerus, a huge trip to the RoSaT, several tournaments, and a near death experience via Hit, and much more, we have base Goku, lowballed, ~ 1.5-2x as strong as a non-amped Basil, who is probably 2-4 times weaker than Fat Buu (I imagine in headcanon that Fat Buu is ~2x amped Basil who is ~2-3x non-amped Basil). Let's be nice and say base Goku as 1/4th the strength of Fat Buu. This means all that training has amounted to Goku geting ~25x stronger in base since the beginning of Super, which is more than reasonable if we're being honest with ourselves.

Of course, my argument combined the anime and manga, which I admit is a mistake. However, it combined disjoint aspects of the two, so it's not such an egregious sin. The only things I'm not sure about are the Basil to amped Basil to Buu gaps, and exactly how much stronger Goku is than Basil. I just know the answer isn't "barely."

PerhapsTheOtherOne · Post by **PerhapsTheOtherOne** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:08 pm

I might be able to clarify things myself.

So, I'm working off the assumption that Gohan was indeed as strong if not stronger than Piccolo in base form, as per RoF. So, for simplicity's sake, I'll put the two at equal levels of power if Piccolo takes off his weighted clothes and doesn't hold back.

Assuming that, up until that point, Piccolo made no gains since the Buu Saga, I estimate he'd be around 1/4 of SS Goku's power during then, thus equal to SS Goku during the Cell Games and 1/4 of SS2 Preteen Gohan's power. I have SS Gohan during RoF to be approximately equal to SS Gotenks in that case.

That means Gohan could've gotten, at most, 4 times stronger for his SS2 power against Piccolo to still be a good bit below his original Ultimate power. So, let's say he got 4 times stronger then. That means he's about equal to SS Goku from the Buu Saga and his old SS2 Preteen power. Thus, Lavender and Pre-Drugged Basil are likely around the same level of power, which makes Basil's performance against Buu a pretty reasonable one.

With Bergamo, even after Basil drugged up, he was still stated to be the strongest brother, so I just place him around base Goku's level, a level I also put current Piccolo, base Gohan/Vegeta, Final Form Freeza, and Slim-Fat Buu in, a level that's above SS3 Gotenks but below the original Ultimate Gohan.

avasatu · Post by **avasatu** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:35 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I might be able to clarify things myself.

So, I'm working off the assumption that Gohan was indeed as strong if not stronger than Piccolo in base form, as per RoF. So, for simplicity's sake, I'll put the two at equal levels of power if Piccolo takes off his weighted clothes and doesn't hold back.

Are you saying current base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo? I have him as slightly above as well since he wasn't quite able to knock Goku out. Just wanted to clarify.

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Assuming that, up until that point, Piccolo made no gains since the Buu Saga, I estimate he'd be around 1/4 of SS Goku's power during then, thus equal to SS Goku during the Cell Games and 1/4 of SS2 Preteen Gohan's power. I have SS Gohan during RoF to be approximately equal to SS Gotenks in that case.

Why would you assume no gains for Piccolo, and given that he made none, how do you get the 1/4th estimate? We don't have any feats from him in the Buu arc, that I recall. The last thing we'd have really known about him at that point is that he's likely somewhat above 2x Cell saga 17. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's a reasonable estimate you made, I just don't know where you got it.

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:That means Gohan could've gotten, at most, 4 times stronger for his SS2 power against Piccolo to still be a good bit below his original Ultimate power. So, let's say he got 4 times stronger then. That means he's about equal to SS Goku from the Buu Saga and his old SS2 Preteen power. Thus, Lavender and Pre-Drugged Basil are likely around the same level of power, which makes Basil's performance against Buu a pretty reasonable one.

To when are referring when you say Gohan could have gotten 4 times stronger, etc.? Stronger from what? Does he do any kind of reasonable training between RoF and the Exhibition match? All I remember is some casual mention of standard training, and it seemed to me that the show implied he even slacked off from that. Maybe I need to rewatch that section.

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:With Bergamo, even after Basil drugged up, he was still stated to be the strongest brother, so I just place him around base Goku's level, a level I also put current Piccolo, base Gohan/Vegeta, Final Form Freeza, and Slim-Fat Buu in, a level that's above SS3 Gotenks but below the original Ultimate Gohan.

I agree with you placing all these fighters together, but I don't see how you can put them above SS3 Gotenks (assuming you mean Buu arc). SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> Fat Buu. If Goku in base is about Bergamo level, who isn't too far above steroid Basil, and Fat Buu is anywhere from a small to medium sized chunk above steroid Basil, then base Goku can't exceed untrained Fat Buu. Maybe I'm misreading you somewhere.

perucho1990 · Post by **perucho1990** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:49 pm

We could agree Nink is stronger than all of U9(individually) because Goku needed Blue to push him out.

While Goku and Vegeta using Blue vs the Trio de Dangers seemed overkill, it made sense because it was mentioned the Trio was at their strongest when they fought together, Basil mentioned that their bonds made them strong, in Shounen terms its the power of feeling/friendship.

Animelover5487 · Post by **Animelover5487** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:52 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:I believe Base Forms have been purposely nerfed. uub obviously won't be SSG + level and I think he'll give Base Goku a run, just like in EoZ. I also feel SS transformations are tiny multipliers now, since when could Bergamo swap hands with SS1 Goku? Transitioning from Base to SS1 should've one shot the trio, it's like there was little to no power increase. There is no scaling in Super, toei doesn't even try to stay consistent. All for the money. Now people will believe uub is SSG level cuz he pushed base Goku back... ep 98 proved Base is fodder.

Should've kept it SSG(Base) & SSB

Not a chance. Zamasu said Super Saiyan had mulitplied Goku's ki tens of times over and Vegeta was equal to Cabba in equal forms even though Cabba outta have the full 50x multiplier.

ChiefWamsutta · Post by **ChiefWamsutta** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:49 am

I am curious as to people's thoughts on this wiki page and how it relates to things.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/God%27 ... n_radiance

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:56 am

I think that's what they were getting at when they said Super Saiyan God's power was still burning inside him. Super Saiyan and Base Goku were only that strong in that fight because of that power.

Somehow things changed after that, it no longer burns inside him most of the time and it's gone back to Goku getting tens of times stronger when he transforms.

Which would mean he must do something to get that power to burn inside him once again when he turns Blue.

On another note I saw the newest episode subbed. It was interesting to see that Beerus called the Trio weaklings. So obviously they aren't as strong as Super Saiyan God. Some might say "Well we know that already" but it was just to rid the idea that Base Goku is at all times as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Seeing as they matched Base Goku in this episode then he too must be weaker than Super Saiyan God and therefore weaker than when he fought Beerus.

buutenks · Post by **buutenks** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:04 am

Seems to be a mess to me. On one hand base Goku is able to keep up with Golden Freeza and withstand Hakai. On other hand, base Goku has trouble with the trio, who are at best ssj1-2 level, based off of the fight with fat Buu and Gohan. So either Goku and Vegeta have 2 bases, or the writers can't make up their mind on where base Goku and Vegeta stand.

Plus there is Goku vs Gohan in ep 74, considering prior to episode 90, Gohan was far below his Buu saga Ultimate self, then base and ssj Goku couldn't have been that much stronger than his Buu saga self.

DBZ Macky · Post by **DBZ Macky** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:07 am

Remember how the Saiyans' (mostly Gohan's) tails grew out just in time to save them from a pinch? Can't it be that "God's crimson radiance" pretty much performs the same function too?

I believe it could be responsible for the following:

1. Healing Goku's injury and saving Goku from dying when Beerus when he made a fucking hole in his torso.

2. Giving Base Goku just enough power to destroy Beerus's Sphere of Destruction and save his planet.

3. Letting the Saiyans survive Beerus's unrestrained blasts while training under Whis.

4. After just learning SSB, they were able to summon God's power in their base forms and fight against Freeza, however, this power became obsolete after the introduction of SSB and the Saiyans stopped using it intentionally.

5. Letting Goku hold his own against Hit.

6.Saving Copy-Vegeta from getting decapitated from Gotenks's kick to his neck and all.

7. Letting Goku survive Freeza's gut punches and dish out equal damage, and also resist Sidra's Hakai Ball.

It's basically an in-universe Plot Armor that's already been estabilished from the first example.

Triggered Vegeta · Post by **Triggered Vegeta** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:10 am

Animelover5487 wrote:
Triggered Vegeta wrote:I believe Base Forms have been purposely nerfed. uub obviously won't be SSG + level and I think he'll give Base Goku a run, just like in EoZ. I also feel SS transformations are tiny multipliers now, since when could Bergamo swap hands with SS1 Goku? Transitioning from Base to SS1 should've one shot the trio, it's like there was little to no power increase. There is no scaling in Super, toei doesn't even try to stay consistent. All for the money. Now people will believe uub is SSG level cuz he pushed base Goku back... ep 98 proved Base is fodder.

Should've kept it SSG(Base) & SSB
Not a chance. Zamasu said Super Saiyan had mulitplied Goku's ki tens of times over and Vegeta was equal to Cabba in equal forms even though Cabba outta have the full 50x multiplier.

Where was that 50x boost in ep 98? It looked more like a small percentage, How could Lavender swap hands with Base Vegeta, then immediately after do so with SS1? Even Bergamo could, when previously couldn't and it would appear Bergamo, Basil & Lavender are around Base level. Nothing was said/implied they got stronger. You don't even notice the increase from base to SS1, it's so miniscule.

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:02 am

I'm starting to get convinced that Goku and Vegeta can no longer use the power of SSG in their base because that would result in them going Blue. After the events of RoF they have never showed that incredible strenght again bar a few inconsistency here and there (most notably Copy arc)

I also theorize that each transformation (not power-ups, so KK or USSJ wouldn't count) give a permanent eye-movement or reaction boost when unlocked first. This would be the reason why characters never bother transforming when following high speed battles, or how for example base Goku and Vegeta were able to instantly shield Shin and Gowasu from Black and Zamasu's attack. Another example would be Goku vs Hit, as Goku didn't really perform that different once he transformed, and, when untransformed, he was still able to react to Hit's attacks. More recently, Goku was amazed by Jiren's speed, and Goku didn't transform to avoid the bricks thrown by Liquir yet he was surprised that Jiren read the bricks' movement.

This theory would make sense out of many inconsistencies, such as base Goku being able to keep up in speed with Golden Freezer, which I bet would have received no damage or would have easily avoided a punch from an untransformed Goku. The reason why Goku didn't transform was because he would have had time to react in case Freezer attacked him.

For example, Super Saiyan would boost the following things: Attack power 50x, Defense power 50x, Speed 50x, Reactions 50x (First time only, afterwards the body adapts and the transformation no longer provides this boost)

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:10 am

I'm wondering if it isn't as complicated as all this and it just goes

Super Saiyan God Goku >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku >>>>> Base Goku >>>>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Start of Super) >>>>> Base Goku (Start of Super).

Vastly more powerful than before which is why he's stronger than Gotenks and Frieza but not as strong as Super Saiyan God unless he turns Blue only.

Almighty Majin · Post by **Almighty Majin** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:02 pm

perucho1990 wrote:We could agree Nink is stronger than all of U9(individually) because Goku needed Blue to push him out.

Nink was shown earlier to be fighting on par with Hyssop from U9 so this can't be the case. If anything, Goku went blue because he needed to make sure that he wasn't going to get ringed out as well as being stuck in a hold from a larger/heavier opponent.

Bullza wrote:I'm wondering if it isn't as complicated as all this and it just goes

Super Saiyan God Goku >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku >>>>> Base Goku >>>>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Start of Super) >>>>> Base Goku (Start of Super).

Vastly more powerful than before which is why he's stronger than Gotenks and Frieza but not as strong as Super Saiyan God unless he turns Blue only.

This is what I think basically

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:34 pm

Bullza wrote:I'm wondering if it isn't as complicated as all this and it just goes

Super Saiyan God Goku >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku >>>>> Base Goku >>>>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Start of Super) >>>>> Base Goku (Start of Super).

Vastly more powerful than before which is why he's stronger than Gotenks and Frieza but not as strong as Super Saiyan God unless he turns Blue only.

Thats what i think as well,it sure makes more sense and is supported by facts unlike the 2 base theory....

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:21 pm

Bullza wrote:I'm wondering if it isn't as complicated as all this and it just goes

Super Saiyan God Goku >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku >>>>> Base Goku >>>>>> Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Start of Super) >>>>> Base Goku (Start of Super).

Vastly more powerful than before which is why he's stronger than Gotenks and Frieza but not as strong as Super Saiyan God unless he turns Blue only.

Without any transformations, Goku and Vegeta were stronger than SS3 Gotenks, but even after getting much stronger they are still weaker than the good Boo. How do you explain this?

Lionel · Post by **Lionel** » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:02 am

The best explanation I can think of is that Mr Buu tapped into some previously unexplored reservoire of power by training his body in what may have been his first ever attempt at improvement without absorbing someone. If he's anything like the kind of mutant Freeza is then I guess it's not impossible to suggest that Buu could improve by leaps and bounds in a short period of time. The amount of power Goku was emitting in their fight was questionable, anyway. It was a casual sparring match. Goku didn't appear to power up at all throughout their short bout yet he was still holding his own quite well.

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:05 am

I've tried my hand at a 1 base list, tell me what you think!

Dragon Ball Super Power Levels

Spoiler:

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:17 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Without any transformations, Goku and Vegeta were stronger than SS3 Gotenks, but even after getting much stronger they are still weaker than the good Boo. How do you explain this?

But do we really know for certainty that Base Goku was weaker than Good Buu? When he fought with Slim Buu he commented that he had got faster than before but Goku was keeping up with him perfectly fine.

Which should mean Goku was also faster than Good Buu so also more powerful.

Bulma's Foot Masseur · Post by **Bulma's Foot Masseur** » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:22 am

How do proponents of the two-base theory think Vegeta got his second base? Goku upon arriving on Planet Beerus wonders if Vegeta is even stronger than he is and that's before Vegeta really knew what God Ki even was. Goku later lauds and is envious of Vegeta for tapping into the power of Super Saiyan God "on his own", and he wouldn't have a primary base on the same level as Goku if he achieved Super Saiyan God via training. That would defeat the whole point.

Kanzenshuu

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