Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

It's definitely someone from the other universes.

Not yet. The arc barely began. Even if you think Beerus' level is far too great for Goku or Jiren to handle, none has seen what they will be capable of. Besides, try to show some respect for the other users. Speculation is not invalidated by speculation.

I gave a very clear explanation as to why this was false. I think you should go check it out.

The irony is that you are accusing others from assuming facts. I read all your post and I didn't find anything different from a prediction. Let us wait and see how things will play out.

[Marlowe89]

I keep having the impression that Krillin isn't too far from Android 18, meaning he's at least initial SSJ tier (would fit nicely with Goku going SSJ against him).
I mean, if Majora was equal-ish to A18 (resisting her attacks) BUT Krillin didn't seem THAT distant from him... I can see Krillin being SSJ Goku on Namek levels. Which wouldn't be completely unbelievable.

Majora barely fought 18 in the episode though. There's a part where she casually kicks him aside, and there's also a part where he catches her off-guard and knocks her to the ground, but beyond those exchanges the two had no interaction since Krillin wanted to handle Majora on his own.

It seems that the fight was really more of a testing ground for Krillin's solo strength and ability, with 18 mainly playing the role of spectator and supportive wife. Her one-on-one exchange with Shosa demonstrated that she can fight well enough on her own whereas the point of Krillin's character development was learning not to rely so much on others, especially since he had to be protected by base Gohan earlier in the episode. To me, that would imply that 18 is still stronger than Krillin.

[DBZ Macky]

I have a hard time believing Krillin is close to 18 in power, but he definitely seemed stronger than First Form Freeza on Namek.

[avasatu]

I don't understand how people are placing base Goku definitively above Z Vegito. Goku's best definitive feat post BoG in base is being equal to Vegeta who was well above what I assume was a reasonably unsuppressed ss3 Gotenks. As far as I can recall, nothing else Goku has done comes even close to this if we assume SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> current Fat Buu.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't understand how people are placing base Goku definitively above Z Vegito. Goku's best definitive feat post BoG in base is being equal to Vegeta who was well above what I assume was a reasonably unsuppressed ss3 Gotenks. As far as I can recall, nothing else Goku has done comes even close to this if we assume SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> current Fat Buu.

If anything, I'd say using Goku and Vegeta as a measurement for how strong Vegetto was back then would be the safest measure. Extraordinarily strong, but still below SSG even with SS3.

[Ki Breaker]

I am now of the view, the stronger characters have a defined strength set,
Berrus> Goku> Vegeta >= Hit

But the weaker ones, because they are so far behind, have different results everytime they fight, plainly due to them using strategy in every fight and some strategies working better than others, but when it comes to plain strength test by mistake or by force, everyone falls to top tier..

[Marlowe89]

I don't understand how people are placing base Goku definitively above Z Vegito. Goku's best definitive feat post BoG in base is being equal to Vegeta who was well above what I assume was a reasonably unsuppressed ss3 Gotenks. As far as I can recall, nothing else Goku has done comes even close to this if we assume SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> current Fat Buu.

Unless Gotenks was retconned into being weaker than Buu, base Goku isn't even close to SS3 Gotenks (much less Vegito). Other posters and myself have brought up, at length, all of the instances within the past 50 or so episodes that demonstrate or imply this. That's simply what the current narrative upholds.

If some version of the two base theory isn't true then people seriously need to start accepting the notion that there probably was a retcon of Goku's strength at some point.

[ekrolo2]

I don't understand how people are placing base Goku definitively above Z Vegito. Goku's best definitive feat post BoG in base is being equal to Vegeta who was well above what I assume was a reasonably unsuppressed ss3 Gotenks. As far as I can recall, nothing else Goku has done comes even close to this if we assume SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> current Fat Buu.

Unless Gotenks was retconned into being weaker than Buu, base Goku isn't even close to SS3 Gotenks (much less Vegito). Other posters and myself have brought up, at length, all of the instances within the past 50 or so episodes that demonstrate or imply this. That's simply what the current narrative upholds.

If some version of the two base theory isn't true then people seriously need to start accepting the notion that there probably was a retcon of Goku's strength at some point.

There was definitely a retcon done, just one of many. I don't know why people would be opposed to Toriyama changing his stance on this particular subject when he's more or less contradicted everything power wise from the movies from F onwards.

[avasatu]

Agreed. If we recton post RoF instead of post BoG, base Goku can be as weak as about 1/4th Fat Buu, but more likely 1/2ish.

[TheMikado]

I don't understand how people are placing base Goku definitively above Z Vegito. Goku's best definitive feat post BoG in base is being equal to Vegeta who was well above what I assume was a reasonably unsuppressed ss3 Gotenks. As far as I can recall, nothing else Goku has done comes even close to this if we assume SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> current Fat Buu.

Unless Gotenks was retconned into being weaker than Buu, base Goku isn't even close to SS3 Gotenks (much less Vegito). Other posters and myself have brought up, at length, all of the instances within the past 50 or so episodes that demonstrate or imply this. That's simply what the current narrative upholds.

If some version of the two base theory isn't true then people seriously need to start accepting the notion that there probably was a retcon of Goku's strength at some point.

That's the out of universe explanation which has never been officially stated. Even though it's almost certainly 100% true. The best we have is the two base theory because Toei and some of the fan base won't admit that they screwed up somewhere along the way.

[TheMikado]

I don't understand how people are placing base Goku definitively above Z Vegito. Goku's best definitive feat post BoG in base is being equal to Vegeta who was well above what I assume was a reasonably unsuppressed ss3 Gotenks. As far as I can recall, nothing else Goku has done comes even close to this if we assume SS3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu >> current Fat Buu.

Unless Gotenks was retconned into being weaker than Buu, base Goku isn't even close to SS3 Gotenks (much less Vegito). Other posters and myself have brought up, at length, all of the instances within the past 50 or so episodes that demonstrate or imply this. That's simply what the current narrative upholds.

If some version of the two base theory isn't true then people seriously need to start accepting the notion that there probably was a retcon of Goku's strength at some point.

There was definitely a retcon done, just one of many. I don't know why people would be opposed to Toriyama changing his stance on this particular subject when he's more or less contradicted everything power wise from the movies from F onwards.

Because if you look at earlier statements even in this very thread we had people adamantly arguing that Toriyama would NEVER change his mind about something he just made or that it was IMPOSSIBLE for there to be poor communication between Toriyama and Toei. They let their fanboyism cloud the very real possibility that mistakes could have been made and that Super was anything less than an incredibly well thought out and planned passion project of love direct from Toriyama made with the upmost quality and comparable in every aspect to the original works.

[Bullza]

I'm pretty sure vegeta could have beaten hit he's pretty much nothing impressive anymore Ssb goku already beat him in the rematch

Hit practically killed Goku near instantly, if it wasn't for his quick thinking with the Ki blast restarting his heart he'd have been done.

If Vegeta had been in Goku's shoes he wouldn't have thought to do that and would have just died then and there.

The only reason Goku did so well against Hit, twice, was because he had some idea of his power beforehand. If anyone else went in blind against him, like Black, Frieza, Gohan and maybe even Toppo I don't think they'd stand much of a chance at all.

[Dragonballgod19]

I'm pretty sure vegeta could have beaten hit he's pretty much nothing impressive anymore Ssb goku already beat him in the rematch

Hit practically killed Goku near instantly, if it wasn't for his quick thinking with the Ki blast restarting his heart he'd have been done.

If Vegeta had been in Goku's shoes he wouldn't have thought to do that and would have just died then and there.

The only reason Goku did so well against Hit, twice, was because he had some idea of his power beforehand. If anyone else went in blind against him, like Black, Frieza, Gohan and maybe even Toppo I don't think they'd stand much of a chance at all.

I'm saying hit isn't the main antagonist anymore vegeta manly loses to the main antagonist which isn't hit this time hit probably going to job next episode anyways

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think in BoG, Goku dropped out of SSGod to become SSGod Radiance (SS1 in Outer Space). This is when he absorbed the godly power and used all of his power to punch away the sphere of destruction. Then he trained with Whis to keep it within his body differently through ki control, allowing Saiyan Beyond God.

Then they unlocked SSBlue, and ever since then they have slowly been shifting away from their Saiyan Beyond God forms (in-universe explanation). Goku used it against RoF Frieza, then Monaka-Beerus, and shifted away from using it, just like he shifted away from SS3.

SSGod -- BoG
SSGod Radiance -- BoG
SBG -- RoF, U6, FT
SSBlue -- RoF, U6, FT, US
SSBlue KK -- U6, FT, US

You could argue that as time goes on, Goku fazed out of using the old god forms.

Obviously, out-of-universe, a retcon occurred, and SSGod Radiance and SBG were the result of the confusion.

[TheMikado]

I think in BoG, Goku dropped out of SSGod to become SSGod Radiance (SS1 in Outer Space). This is when he absorbed the godly power and used all of his power to punch away the sphere of destruction. Then he trained with Whis to keep it within his body differently through ki control, allowing Saiyan Beyond God.

Then they unlocked SSBlue, and ever since then they have slowly been shifting away from their Saiyan Beyond God forms (in-universe explanation). Goku used it against RoF Frieza, then Monaka-Beerus, and shifted away from using it, just like he shifted away from SS3.

SSGod -- BoG
SSGod Radiance -- BoG
SBG -- RoF, U6, FT
SSBlue -- RoF, U6, FT, US
SSBlue KK -- U6, FT, US

You could argue that as time goes on, Goku fazed out of using the old god forms.

Obviously, out-of-universe, a retcon occurred, and SSGod Radiance and SBG were the result of the confusion.

Why would he stop using it only to become significantly weaker? He didn't start using kaioken again because it was weaker. He kept using SSJ and increasing its power. I don't understand why he would chose to always fight on his 1st base now against stronger enemies and his strongest base against weak enemies. And what does that make final form Frieza and base Goku now?

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think in BoG, Goku dropped out of SSGod to become SSGod Radiance (SS1 in Outer Space). This is when he absorbed the godly power and used all of his power to punch away the sphere of destruction. Then he trained with Whis to keep it within his body differently through ki control, allowing Saiyan Beyond God.

Then they unlocked SSBlue, and ever since then they have slowly been shifting away from their Saiyan Beyond God forms (in-universe explanation). Goku used it against RoF Frieza, then Monaka-Beerus, and shifted away from using it, just like he shifted away from SS3.

SSGod -- BoG
SSGod Radiance -- BoG
SBG -- RoF, U6, FT
SSBlue -- RoF, U6, FT, US
SSBlue KK -- U6, FT, US

You could argue that as time goes on, Goku fazed out of using the old god forms.

Obviously, out-of-universe, a retcon occurred, and SSGod Radiance and SBG were the result of the confusion.

Why would he stop using it only to become significantly weaker? He didn't start using kaioken again because it was weaker. He kept using SSJ and increasing its power. I don't understand why he would chose to always fight on his 1st base now against stronger enemies and his strongest base against weak enemies. And what does that make final form Frieza and base Goku now?

Goku would use his first Base probably because he is an addict.

He needs to start out very slowly and then increase is power. He also probably feels more comfortable with 1st Base, SS1, SS2 because he has had them for years longer than SBG and SSBlue.

Trunks pointed out during SS2 Goku vs. Black that Goku was not fighting as hard as he could. Vegeta replies that this is a trait Goku does.

[TheMikado]

I think in BoG, Goku dropped out of SSGod to become SSGod Radiance (SS1 in Outer Space). This is when he absorbed the godly power and used all of his power to punch away the sphere of destruction. Then he trained with Whis to keep it within his body differently through ki control, allowing Saiyan Beyond God.

Then they unlocked SSBlue, and ever since then they have slowly been shifting away from their Saiyan Beyond God forms (in-universe explanation). Goku used it against RoF Frieza, then Monaka-Beerus, and shifted away from using it, just like he shifted away from SS3.

SSGod -- BoG
SSGod Radiance -- BoG
SBG -- RoF, U6, FT
SSBlue -- RoF, U6, FT, US
SSBlue KK -- U6, FT, US

You could argue that as time goes on, Goku fazed out of using the old god forms.

Obviously, out-of-universe, a retcon occurred, and SSGod Radiance and SBG were the result of the confusion.

Why would he stop using it only to become significantly weaker? He didn't start using kaioken again because it was weaker. He kept using SSJ and increasing its power. I don't understand why he would chose to always fight on his 1st base now against stronger enemies and his strongest base against weak enemies. And what does that make final form Frieza and base Goku now?

Goku would use his first Base probably because he is an addict.

He needs to start out very slowly and then increase is power. He also probably feels more comfortable with 1st Base, SS1, SS2 because he has had them for years longer than SBG and SSBlue.

Trunks pointed out during SS2 Goku vs. Black that Goku was not fighting as hard as he could. Vegeta replies that this is a trait Goku does.

So why didn't he use both bases against Hit?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Why would he stop using it only to become significantly weaker? He didn't start using kaioken again because it was weaker. He kept using SSJ and increasing its power. I don't understand why he would chose to always fight on his 1st base now against stronger enemies and his strongest base against weak enemies. And what does that make final form Frieza and base Goku now?

Goku would use his first Base probably because he is an addict.

He needs to start out very slowly and then increase is power. He also probably feels more comfortable with 1st Base, SS1, SS2 because he has had them for years longer than SBG and SSBlue.

Trunks pointed out during SS2 Goku vs. Black that Goku was not fighting as hard as he could. Vegeta replies that this is a trait Goku does.

So why didn't he use both bases against Hit?

To be honest, my interpretation is that he was using SBG. I try to find parallels to the manga, and Goku uses SSGod in it. Goku also was slightly able to keep up with HIt who is at the speed of SSBlue before his first increase.

[Bullza]

Well somehow in the fight with Beerus, Base Goku seemed to surpass his Super Saiyan strength to stop that huge energy ball but then by the next episode Super Saiyan was making him stronger again.

Base Vegeta was implied to be stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta but then at the same time he can still turn into the normal Super Saiyan from the sound of it.

I really don't know what to make of everything. I don't have too much confidence in the two base theory, a lot of it doesn't really make any sense at all.

I mostly wonder if they're just meant to be dramatically more powerful than before, just not as strong as God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well somehow in the fight with Beerus, Base Goku seemed to surpass his Super Saiyan strength to stop that huge energy ball but then by the next episode Super Saiyan was making him stronger again.

Base Vegeta was implied to be stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta but then at the same time he can still turn into the normal Super Saiyan from the sound of it.

I really don't know what to make of everything. I don't have too much confidence in the two base theory, a lot of it doesn't really make any sense at all.

I mostly wonder if they're just meant to be dramatically more powerful than before, just not as strong as God.

That last bit is always how I saw it. Majin Buu was the major milestone before Super began, so I always placed Goku and Vegeta's lowest full power level, full power base forms, at a level slightly above that, like how every successive arc in Z jobbed the greatest power level of the previous arc.

In that way, characters like Piccolo, Gohan, and Buu could catch up relatively easily and yet the series could still maintain just how powerful Goku and Vegeta are. It also keeps SSG a milestone, as its power level could only be reached with a fellow god form, SSB.