Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
AvatarReiko wrote:MSSJ Kid Gohan vs SSJ Majin Vegeta
SSJ2 Goku vs Super Perfect Cell & SSJ2 Gohan
SSJ Gotenks POST vs BOG SSJ2 Vegeta
From Piccolo's statements, SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was on very similar levels of power as SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Going by that, I would say Gohan and Majin Vegeta are even in SSJ. But Vegeta takes this because he's an overall better tactician than Gohan.
SPC and Gohan destroys Goku. SSJ2 Goku wasn't all that powerful in comparison.
Vegeta. Vegeta got a huge power boost in BoG.
And here's some versus from me:
Great Ape Cell Games Trunks VS Android 17
SSJ Future Trunks (no sword) VS Mecha Frieza, King Cold, Android 14, 19, and 20 (no absorbing)
SSJ3 Goku VSCell Games Piccolo with Kaioken (can use x10 normally and x20 with extreme strain)
Mecha Frieza and King Cold VS Android 20 (post-absorptions)
SSJ Future Trunks with sword (first appearance in main timeline) VS Great Ape Future Trunks (post-1st day ROSAT)
former versus:
Spoiler:
Android 14 VS Android 20 (post-absorptions)
SSJ Future Trunks with sword (first appearance in the main timeline) VS Androids Saga/Pre-ROSAT Piccolo, Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, Base Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku (No Kaioken, Tribeam Solar Flare, or Kienzan)
Bio-Broly (not giant form) VS Cell Games USSJ Future Trunks with sword
Cell Games ASSJ Vegeta VS Dabura (no spitting)
Imperfect Cell (post-absorptions) VS Androids 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, Future 17 and 18 (no self destruct)
SSJ Bardock (Episode of Bardock) VS Manga SSJ Younger Future Trunks (a week before Future Gohan dies; no sword)
Cell Games Base Future Trunks (with sword) VS Abo and Kado (they won't fuse)
Movie 8 LSSJ BrolyVS Movie 10 SSJ Broly (they both see an illusion of a SSJ Goku when they see each other, for better rage)
NailVS TV Special Base Younger Future Trunks (first appearance, pre-training)
Android 16 (no self-destruct) VS Buu Saga Base Goku (can utilize Kaiokenx10 normally but Kaiokenx20 will be a great strain just like his usage on Namek)
Last edited by Angelus on Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Angelus wrote:Great Ape Cell Games Trunks VS Android 17
SSJ3 Goku VSCell Games Piccolo with Kaioken (can use x10 normally and x20 with extreme strain)
-It can go either way. There'd only be like a 20% gap between them at best plus Lapis is a shit ton faster and has unlimited stamina
-SSJ3 Goku stomps.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
AvatarReiko wrote:MSSJ Kid Gohan vs SSJ Majin Vegeta
SSJ2 Goku vs Super Perfect Cell & SSJ2 Gohan
SSJ Gotenks POST vs BOG SSJ2 Vegeta
Vegeta but Gohan doesn't go down easy. They should be close in power with Vegeta edging out somewhat. Though if we include Cell Games bullshit wuss out stuff, then Vegeta stomps the suddenly hesitant Gohan.
Gohan and Cell win with some effort. I'm sure Goku can put up some fight, but he won't last against 2 opponents who are nearly as strong as him.
SSJ Gotenks stomps. Vegeta can only LOLRAGETA for a few moments. Afterwords Gotenks survives and annihilates him. Also Gotenks isn't gonna slap his mom so Vegeta can do the Gohan, so still Gotenks stomps but now without much resistance.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Helios518 wrote:LSSJ3 Broly vs Base Super Buu (No absorption)
Freeza Saga Piccolo (Fused w/ Kami and Nail) vs 4th Form Freeza
Super Boo stomps and has a delicious Broccoli meal.
Piccolo practices with his pimp hand and smacks around Freeza.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
AvatarReiko wrote:MSSJ Kid Gohan vs SSJ Majin Vegeta
SSJ2 Goku vs Super Perfect Cell & SSJ2 Gohan
SSJ Gotenks POST vs BOG SSJ2 Vegeta
- SSJ Majin Vegeta runs wild on Gohan
- SSJ2 Goku stomps
- SSJ Gotenks roflstomps Vegeta
Helios518 wrote:LSSJ3 Broly vs Base Super Buu (No absorption)
Freeza Saga Piccolo (Fused w/ Kami and Nail) vs 4th Form Freeza
- Super Buu grinds Broly into dust
- Piccolo fucks up Freeza six ways to Sunday
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
If it's post RoSaT, then Gotenks stomps.
If it isn't, then Goku should come out on top and Gotenks would ruin his chances of winning by trying to look cool instead of taking it seriously.
SSJ2 Goku. If he's up against pre-ROSAT. If he goes up against post-ROSAT, the Gotenks stomps a mudhole in Goku and walks it dry.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
SSJ2 Goku. If he's up against pre-ROSAT. If he goes up against post-ROSAT, the Gotenks stomps a mudhole in Goku and walks it dry.
Did two weeks in the ROSAT really give the boys that big a boost?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
SSJ2 Goku. If he's up against pre-ROSAT. If he goes up against post-ROSAT, the Gotenks stomps a mudhole in Goku and walks it dry.
Did two weeks in the ROSAT really give the boys that big a boost?
The relevant parties are all in agreement, that Gotenks' base form had gotten quite powerful and they humored the thought he could take on Buu, but as it turns out Super Buu was on quite a different level from that.
Some people don't like that and so choose to throw all of the implications about this power-up out the window, but I don't see why they can't be right about it.
Helios518 wrote:5th form Mecha Cooler vs Imperfect Cell* (post human absorption)
Pre-Rosat SSJ1 or SSJ2 Gotenks vs Kid Buu*
Janemba vs Buutenks*
*No absorbing
Cell beats Cooler into the ground, but is disappointed to find out he can't absorb him and so easily blasts every last piece of him into smitereens.
Buu slaps SS Gotenks silly, but has an even fight with SS 2 Gotenks, but he wins in the end as Gotenks' fusion runs out.
Buu smashes Janemba into the ground with a couple of hits and eventually destroys him with ease.
Helios518 wrote:5th form Mecha Cooler vs Imperfect Cell* (post human absorption)
Pre-Rosat SSJ1 or SSJ2 Gotenks vs Kid Buu*
Janemba vs Buutenks*
*No absorbing
If its pre-absorbing the necessary humans to restore his power, Cooler wins, post power restortion I'd say Cell but Cooler would give him a good fight before going down.
SSJ1 Gotenks falls, SSJ2 stalemates until his fusion wears off and he is thoroughly screwed thereafter.
Buutenks annihilates (unless the absorption wears off in which case he's boned)
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Helios518 wrote:LSSJ3 Broly vs Base Super Buu (No absorption)
Super Buu stomps hard. LSSj3 Broli would be barely stronger then Fat Buu via power scaling. LSSj3 Broli would have train really hard to catch up with everyone.
Helios518 wrote:5th form Mecha Cooler vs Imperfect Cell* (post human absorption)
Pre-Rosat SSJ1 or SSJ2 Gotenks vs Kid Buu*
Janemba vs Buutenks*
*No absorbing
- Imperfect Cell stomps Cooler
- Kid Buu sends Gotenks to the next dimension
- Buutenks wrecks Janemba
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
