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I can respect your opinion on this, and you may have even convinced me of your view.Marlowe89 wrote:Super Trunks assisted in the fight against Fused Zamasu, although there's no indication that he improved substantially in the same vein as Vegeta's boosts or even Black's boosts during that particular skirmish. His feat entailed assisting Vegeta, but I wouldn't say it's anything on par with what Goku did against Fused Zamasu by himself. I think he's likely still below Black.
I'm still struggling to why SSB Vegito would be greater than Beerus and Champa. I feel like the anime would make a much bigger deal when a character surpasses Beerus. That's part of the reason I put SSB Vegito and Jiren below Beerus. I do agree that SSB Vegito is very close, as stated in the manga and hinted in the anime, but I still believe he is below.Marlowe89 wrote: My ranking would probably go something like this:
Jiren (maybe?)
Vegito Blue
*Beerus
*Champa
*Half-Corrupted Fused Zamasu
*Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
*Toppo
Fused Zamasu
***Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza
*Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
*Super Trunks
Hit (only accounting for raw strength here)
*Super Saiyan God's power
Well to be more precise, it was Syn Shenron's bio that made that statement. Omega Shenron's bio states him to be exactly ten times stronger than Syn Shenron, so I guess the equivalent for Omega would be more along the lines of ten galaxies -- of course, that's still nowhere near universal-level if we take Elder Kai's statement into account.Bullza wrote:He was? I've never seen that statement before though I never looked into the Perfect Files much.
1. I've outlined most of my reasoning for Vegito Blue's placement here. Regardless of how they compare, I don't think anyone should be denying at this point that the two were meant to be incredibly close.ChiefWamsutta wrote:I'm still struggling to why SSB Vegito would be greater than Beerus and Champa. I feel like the anime would make a much bigger deal when a character surpasses Beerus. That's part of the reason I put SSB Vegito and Jiren below Beerus. I do agree that SSB Vegito is very close, as stated in the manga and hinted in the anime, but I still believe he is below.
Hmmm, interesting that you put Merged Zamasu so close to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. How come you think Toppo is stronger than him?
Well, SSB being 10x stronger than SSG is a good baseline to start with, since those are the numbers we're working with right off the bat. It's also a thematically appropriate increase in power, since Toriyama did originally envision SS to be a 10x multiplier.TheSaiyanGod wrote:how much SSB is stronger than SSG? It has never been talked about the multipliers of these forms and nor the level of their Power ups, just to discuss the strength level of the SSB transformation
In the manga, Goku SSG was stronger than Vegeta Blue with 10% of his power.
That is, the SSG has at least 10% of the strength of a SSB right?
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But in this case, would the increase in strength that the transformation give would not be small? Or are the calculations different?
Yes, I think it would not be like this to be 10x stronger than SSG, it should be at least 2 and at most 5 or 6.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Well, SSB being 10x stronger than SSG is a good baseline to start with, since those are the numbers we're working with right off the bat. It's also a thematically appropriate increase in power, since Toriyama did originally envision SS to be a 10x multiplier.TheSaiyanGod wrote:how much SSB is stronger than SSG? It has never been talked about the multipliers of these forms and nor the level of their Power ups, just to discuss the strength level of the SSB transformation
In the manga, Goku SSG was stronger than Vegeta Blue with 10% of his power.
That is, the SSG has at least 10% of the strength of a SSB right?
[spoiler]
But in this case, would the increase in strength that the transformation give would not be small? Or are the calculations different?
However, it does over-bloat Beerus's power even further if he's so much stronger than SSB that's so much stronger than SSG. Plus, SSB is SS with SSG's power, so it really shouldn't be so much more powerful in the first place. Then again, the difference between SSG and SSB is significant enough that Hit couldn't use the Time-Skip on Goku at all in the manga once he powered up to SSB from SSG when the assassin could managed to do so with SSG.
Thus, I'm of the belief that putting SSB at 2-5 times stronger than SSG is the best multiplication range, so as to make SSB's power significantly more than SSG's, yet also not over-bloat how strong it is in comparison and in turn characters stronger than this level, such as Beerus and the like.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.
In the episode 95 Frieza, that is strong as Goku ssjb, had to struggle to get a God of Destruction sphere off of him and Sidra ki blast was just a small portion of energy of destruction. Beerus just casually blows it off Goku like it was nothing. We have already see that Jiren wrecked Kale, that is not strong as Goku but is still SSJB level, like 17, Gohan, Frieza etc. And is not even confirmed that Jiren is the mortal that a God can't defeat and for now nothing suggest that is him (but even if is that mortal, i'm sure that is not far apart to them. Is not angel level lol).TheSaiyanGod wrote:Beerus is not untouchable for mortals for a long time.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.
Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.
Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.
Maybe in the Battle Of Gods era and even in RoF, but not currently.
It seems absurd to some, but Goku, Vegeta, Hitto (anime), Golden Freeza, Toppo (even he is a candidate for God of Destruction) are much closer to the powers of a God of Destruction than we imagine.
Nah, that was a Hit that was holding back. On top of that, his Time-Skip still worked against Super Saiyan Goku even though we know for a fact that, in the manga at least, Time-Skip is rendered useless against opponents who are stronger than Hit; Beerus was probably accounting for all of Goku's transformations when he said that Goku was stronger.DBZ Macky wrote:IIRC, SS Goku was stated to surpass Hit in power, making him stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. If anything, SSB's multiplier should be ~500x.
Freeza himself told Beerus that the sphere of destruction was no big deal.Legion wrote:In the episode 95 Frieza, that is strong as Goku ssjb, had to struggle to get a God of Destruction sphere off of him and Sidra ki blast was just a small portion of energy of destruction. Beerus just casually blows it off Goku like it was nothing. We have already see that Jiren wrecked Kale, that is not strong as Goku but is still SSJB level, like 17, Gohan, Frieza etc. And is not even confirmed that Jiren is the mortal that a God can't defeat and for now nothing suggest that is him (but even if is that mortal, i'm sure that is not far apart to them. Is not angel level lol).TheSaiyanGod wrote:Beerus is not untouchable for mortals for a long time.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I also think we put god-level, at least its lower spectrum, on too much of a pedestal.
Oh sure, Beerus, Whis, and similar beings were always gonna be untouchable, but lower god-level, like SSG, SSB, etc., has consistently been demonstrated as not something overly untouchable by the likes of mortals.
Being a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu, the previous greatest threat, is a major milestone but not an untouchable one. Hell, going by GT, this was already done beforehand with SS4. If characters can reach Majin Buu's level, then tap into transformations or the like to boost their power thousands of times, that being lower god-level is an acceptable lowball, in my own personal opinion.
Maybe in the Battle Of Gods era and even in RoF, but not currently.
It seems absurd to some, but Goku, Vegeta, Hitto (anime), Golden Freeza, Toppo (even he is a candidate for God of Destruction) are much closer to the powers of a God of Destruction than we imagine.
In the manga Beerus is compared to Vegetto blue, far stronger than Goku and Vegeta.
SSJB tier characters are not close to the Gods, and i don't understand why people can't accept this, but whatever.
I don't think there a problem with Goku base form being that strong,I put him around ss3 Gotenks tiers,if that's too high put him at ss3Bullza wrote:If there is only one Base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and weaker than Super Saiyan God then how many fights does that make odd?
It fits fine with both Frieza fights, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Hit, Beerus and Copy Vegeta. No reason why it couldn't fit with his fights with Trunks, Black and Zamasu. It could fit with Bergamo it would just mean he was a lot stronger than his brothers (he was the strongest though so it could work).
It could also fit with people like Cabba, Caulifla and Magetta.
Is it just a problem when it comes to his fights with Frost, Gohan and Krillin and some troubles he had with the others in Universe 9?
The problem isn't those guys. The problem it would imply Piccolo is above SSJ3 level, Gohan in base is above SSJ3 level as well. Even master Roshi somehow got to SSJ3 level. So the problem isn't the universe 6 guys by themselves, but every other scenario where we see base or SSJ Goku fighting evenly with someone he should have long surpassed and literally be 1,000,000,000% stronger than. That's the problem.The gr wrote:I don't think there a problem with Goku base form being that strong,I put him around ss3 Gotenks tiers,if that's too high put him at ss3Bullza wrote:If there is only one Base form that's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and weaker than Super Saiyan God then how many fights does that make odd?
It fits fine with both Frieza fights, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Hit, Beerus and Copy Vegeta. No reason why it couldn't fit with his fights with Trunks, Black and Zamasu. It could fit with Bergamo it would just mean he was a lot stronger than his brothers (he was the strongest though so it could work).
It could also fit with people like Cabba, Caulifla and Magetta.
Is it just a problem when it comes to his fights with Frost, Gohan and Krillin and some troubles he had with the others in Universe 9?It make sense since Goku constantly evolves because it doesn't make sense if his base form is below namek frieza and I don't see a problem with frost being that strong
Let's just see if #18 fairs well against frost,if she gets owned by him,is a proof she below the base Saiyan and that means the base Saiyan are really strong or episode 101 will have the answer for this because I always see Krillin and her are relative to each other
I pointed out earlier that Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan in that first scene, potentially to tie into him being such in RoF. The rumour then goes that fans pointed out that he should've been Ultimate, and a change was made. I'm not sure if this rumour's true, but it's food for thought.Bullza wrote:Base Gohan at the start of Super I'm wondering if if were actually stronger than Buu. It's odd that Piccolo saw Beerus beat Buu instantly but was then shocked afterward when he saw Beerus beat Gohan so quickly too.
Gohan also seemed to be above Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga so it's probably not that far off.
With all the training he did it might explain why he was able to hold his own against Goku later on who was above Gotenks. Though Goku could have just been holding back against him.
Piccolo is an odd one too but I'd put well below Super Saiyan 2 Goku based on the Ultimate Gohan fight.
You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.Simere wrote:You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.TheMikado wrote:Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
TheMikado was asking specifically for times he got owned while holding back. I don't know about the movies because I haven't seen most of them, but I'm pretty sure it never happened in the series, including filler. I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison, though, since this fight against Kale was interrupted.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.Simere wrote:You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.TheMikado wrote:Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.
Goku didn't go all out against Nappa, Vegeta and Freezer (he was saving Kaio-Ken) and when he first fought Perfect Cell they both started out holding back. Goku also didn't go full power from the start against Yakon and he preferred to enjoy his fight with Vegeta as a SSJ2 instead of ending it quickly with SSJ3.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You are mistaken. Goku really did have a habit to hold back at the beginning of a fight in DBZ. It was filler & movie fights, but it still is DBZ, and Toei is writing the episodes based on that.Simere wrote:You always have great questions, and if I'm not mistaken, the answer is: zero times.TheMikado wrote:Just a quick question, please count up the number of times Goku held back AND got completely stomped simultaneously in DBZ? I'm just curious.
Not even that. Gotenks would just be an idiot in general and probably get wasted by the stronger characters who are clearly above Majin Buu because he's being such a brat.Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:It's worth noting that if anyone could have had his power squandered by stupidity, it would be Gotenks. We know he hasn't been training and we know Goku didn't even want to bring him to the Tournament of Power, so is it really that unbelievable that a not-God-but-still-Whis-trained Vegeta/Goku would be stronger than Gotenks' SSJ3? It's not like the rest of the cast haven't become stronger/weaker with the flip of a switch.
