Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta still put more effort in that blast to kill him than Cui's.

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta still put more effort in that blast to kill him than Cui's.

Well, yeah. Dodoria is stronger. But you have no way of knowing how much stronger. Which is why you can't have a clear difference in Vegeta and Dodoria's powers. Which wouldn't be a problem, except you keep using this fight to justify your other power levels.

[ZombieVito]

I use this, made from someone from shinden:

Fighter A Fighter B Gap
100 101-104 Fighters are rivals with B having the unnoticeable advantage, skill important
100 105-109 Fighters fight fairly evenly, B has a noticeable advantage, skill important
100 110-113 B has a clear upperhand against A, skill becomes less relevant
100 114-116 Barring techniques or hax, B overwhelms A
100 117-121 B stomps A
100 122-133+ B can toy with A at this point
100 150+ A cannot even see B; B won

And well Dodoria is Freeza's bodyguard/captain, he has to have a clear advantage against Cui. 20/18= 1.111, that's enough to beat him. But I can totally accept him at 21K.

[Kamiccolo9]

I go with the numbers in the Daizenshuu, and have Vegeta at 24,000 and Dodoria at 22,000. However, the reason that I think this particular fight is so one sided when, according to the numbers, it shouldn't be, is Dodoria mindset and character. He's already seen Vegeta's power on his scouter, and he knows it's higher than his own. He's in denial, and panics when Vegeta shows up, meaning he's not composed and less efficient in battle. He runs away when he realizes Vegeta won't spare him, and is totally off guard when Vegeta blasts him. We know from during the Frieza fight, that lowering your guard can allow a vastly weaker power to mortally injure you, as seen when Krillin blows a hole through Vegeta's chest, so an unguarded attack from someone stronger would surely be fatal.
Also, Vegeta states that while he's been out doing missions for Frieza, Dodoria has been sitting at Freeza's side, proud and lazy. Vegeta has far more combat experience than Dodoria, and is in much better shape. I feel that all these factors contributed to making this fight so one-sided, even though their power levels aren't that far apart.

Incidentally, and egregiously off-topic, I'm liking this row of Piccolo avatars we're making. Gotta respect Big Green, am I right?

[ZombieVito]

Haha, yes. My fav character along with Goku and Vegeta.

Back on topic, the only way Krillin was able to injured Vegeta was because he suppressed his power to the mere minimum. Dodoria can't do it. But hell 22K can still work I guess.

[Kamiccolo9]

Haha, yes. My fav character along with Goku and Vegeta.

Back on topic, the only way Krillin was able to injured Vegeta was because he suppressed his power to the mere minimum. Dodoria can't do it. But hell 22K can still work I guess.

Yeah, it's not the power levels themselves that bug me. It's when this fight is brough up as the definitive example of how strong a fighter has to be to overwhelm an opponent. If both Vegeta and Dodoria were in a situation where both of them were fully confident of victory, and if they had both been physically and mentally stable, I feel like the fight, while Vegeta would have still won without too much difficulty, would have been more than Vegeta torturing him, and blowing him up while he ran away.

[RandomGuy96]

I agree with that. Nowhere was it ever stated that fighter A has to be X% stronger than fighter B to defeat him in Y time, and it bugs me when people say that Dodoria vs Vegeta is irrefutable evidence as to why the guidebooks are inaccurate (since they have Freeza at 120,000,000 and Goku at 150,000,000).

Back on topic, the only way Krillin was able to injured Vegeta was because he suppressed his power to the mere minimum. Dodoria can't do it. But hell 22K can still work I guess.

Your guard has to be up to defend against an attack. This is why that worked. This is why Piccolo was able to send final form Freeza flying with a kick. This is why Piccolo was able to cause so much pain to Nappa with an uncharged ki blast while heavily injured.

And no sorry but if AT never said his power level in an interview or something then no dice.

AT never said anything about the guidebooks being wrong, for one thing. For another, I'm pretty sure he gave one his stamp of approval, saying that the writers of it did a great job.

Like it or not Nappa and Vegeta both powered up, these instances can't be ignore

As Bussani said, this was probably down to the heroes' ki sensing abilities, not Nappa actually powering up. Otherwise, the numerous references both Nappa and Vegeta make to the ability to hide power levels (they say that it's amazing, something they don't know, et cetera) make no sense.

I don't care for them or used them. The are inaccurate.

Because obviously, some fan's opinion > the official encyclopedia.

Is Goku a liar then? Why use Kaioken if hes twice as fast?

Speed =/= power level. He probably simply couldn't have got there quick enough; there are numerous instances of someone being stronger but not faster than their opponent.

Even then Vegeta told Nappa to calm down and fight, Vegeta doesnt know Nappa's PL now? Sorry but no dice, it's a direct power statement from the manga, Nappa =< Goku.

Uh, no? Goku treated Nappa like a child as he casually and easily dodged or deflected all of his attacks will batting him around. Nappa only appears to be keeping up for three or so panels. What happens in those? Nappa charges at Goku and tries to punch him, but misses. Nappa then barley dodges a retaliatory kick before charging up and launching his ultimate attack. Goku casually deflects it with a blast of his own instantly, shocking Nappa. Then Vegeta told him to calm down and fight, probably thinking that Nappa's tankiness will give him a chance, but even then he was inwardly thinking that Nappa was going to get massacred and that he'd have to enter himself. Also, Nappa was pissing himself over the prospect of facing someone at 5,000. There's no way he's Goku's equal. His magazine level works fine.

A 1.25X gap can't work (120 vs 150), it's just too close to the 1.33x gap Vegeta had on Cui

Seems pretty far to me.

Theres also nothing wrong with the fight with Dodoria.

Dodoria blindly attacked Vegeta without thinking, then Vegeta took advantage of that and jumped behind him, grabbing his arms. That was pretty much the entirety of the fight, and at that point even the slightest difference in power level would of course give an advantage, since he was, you know, grabbing him from behind and physically overpowering him. Then Dodoria tried to run and was blasted with his back turned.

Another example is Monster Zarbon vs Vegeta, most put Zarbon in the 28K range, that's a 1.18-1.16X gap and he totally trashed Vegeta.

I have him at 30,000, that same 1.25x gap. Which is not unbelievable when you consider A. the differing circumstances of the battles and B. the fact that it was never stated that fighter A has to be X% stronger than fighter B to defeat him in Y time. It's just a rough estimate of how physically strong and fast the fighters are-heck, it's not even that, since it's shown a lot of times that, while power level does pretty much improve those base stats, the degree to which some are boosted over others varies. It just seems like you're being really nitpicky to assure yourself that your fanon is more "accurate" than the official guidebooks.

Sorry but no, I might accept that number (120) but after it's stated Freeza is getting weaker that Goku decides to stop the fight, no way its at the beginning of the fight.

Why not? Freeza landed maybe three good, painful hits the entire battle and was briefly shown exchanging blows in one of those quick punch sequences with Goku. He tanked more damage than he should've, but his species is naturally very resilient. He put up a fight, but the only time where Goku was really in danger was when Freeza launched those homing Destructo Disks (and when Freeza was just refusing to stay down, what with the whole exploding planet thing).

A powerfull character can be hit by a weaker one for example Freeza might have been caught off guard by Piccolo but he was never stated to be weakened. Raditz was, hence Gohan (enraged) > Raditz.

Piccolo, who is 1% as powerful as Freeza (who is a natural tank himself), can kick him and send him flying when catching him off guard, clearly causing him actual physical pain, no matter how minor. But Gohan, who is almost exactly as strong as Raditz, can't simply injure him by catching him off guard? He just HAS to be a few points over or it stretches your suspension of disbelief?

[Kaboom]

Is Goku a liar then? Why use Kaioken if hes twice as fast?

Speed =/= power level. He probably simply couldn't have got there quick enough; there are numerous instances of someone being stronger but not faster than their opponent.

Naw, it actually works perfectly.

If Goku is twice as fast as Nappa, but also twice as far away from Kuririn and Gohan than Nappa, then they're both going to reach Kuririn and Gohan at the same time, which isn't good enough. Even more not good enough given how Nappa was going to launch his ultimate attack at them even before reaching them. The Kaio-Ken was necessary to intercept Nappa before he reached them or did anything else.

[RandomGuy96]

Good explanation. But mostly I put that note in there to emphasize that having a higher power level doesn't automatically make you better at everything, and that you can't get too nitpicky about gaps based on scenes like this. Burter was much faster than Jeice despite them both having the same power level. Ginyu was surprised that Goku could be as fast as him without using kaio-ken where his power level was only 90,000. Krillin could outrun second form Freeza despite having less than 10% of his power level. And of course, Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks was stronger but much slower than Initial Perfect Cell.

[ZombieVito]

You still don't get it, Piccolo did blew Freeza away (many instances like this happen later) but Freeza was NOT weakened. I'm still waiting for an example for that. Gohan has to be > to weakened Raditz, which puts him at 1200+ but lower than 1307, thus making 1500 incorrect. And again Goku stated the fight will take forever (now Goku can't sense Ki?), a fight with one opponent is 2x the other will not last forever, that statement is never contradicted, it's a fact.

[Kaboom]

Gohan has to be > to weakened Raditz, which puts him at 1200+ but lower than 1307, thus making 1500 incorrect.

Your turn to prove something, then, if you're so insistent upon what "has to be." Please provide a direct manga or guidebook statement telling us that it's impossible to even hurt someone unless you generate power greater than them. No lopsided "examples," just actual stated proof. Because the way you're holding yourself and the official material to such a strict rule must mean there's something definite that we apparently missed.

[ZombieVito]

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.1-2
Vegeta: “When we Saiyans revive from the brink of death, our strength increases! So go ahead and half-kill me! There’s no effect if I try to kill myself! You do it! Quickly! Freeza is about to perform his final transformation!”
Kuririn: “I-I could half-kill you with my power…”
Vegeta: “Don’t worry…I’ll lower my battle power to its limit…! It’s fortunate that the Namekian brat who can instantly heal people is here…”

Makes it pretty clear really.

This implies you can take minimal damage that isn't even worth mentioning with an amplified Ki blast:

Chapter: 275 (DBZ 81), P12.4
Context: Vegeta attacked Recoom all out, but it had little effect.
Gohan: “H-he hardly took any damage…”

Context: after Cell is hit by Piccolo’s powerful ki blast
No.18: “He did it!”
No.16: “No, he didn’t. [Cell] has hardly taken any damage.”

But like I said those were Ki blasts and Gohan just headbutted him and:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

Completely trashed Raditz he couldn't fend off a 400 something fighter. And that fighter was weakened.

[Kaboom]

I'll admit the Vegeta and Kuririn situation makes for a good argument. It implies that Vegeta had to lower his power to at least somewhere in Kuririn's range, but nothing more specific than that. Nobody was standing there watching them and checking them out with a scouter, so we don't know if he got himself weaker, or still just a little stronger, or what have you. Hence it's still not undeniable proof of anything. At least not enough to claim that something else official is "incorrect."

All this just goes to show my point that sticking too strictly to fan-made rules about what can or can't "work" doesn't get anybody anywhere. The series itself doesn't get nearly so precise or consistent, nor does it need to, and neither should we. Hence why the purpose of this thread is for creating and discussing numbers in the interest of fun and creativity, not some sort of pseudo-scientific debate and research. Crafting power levels is like building stuff with LEGOs, not doing advanced architectural design.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah I agree but when one is told his list can't even be taken seriously for not following "official" numbers, it strikes a nerve. You guys convinced me to not trash the Daiz that much but I guess I could use the PL that make sense for me. Where can I find a full list? Or is those images from the Wiki the only ones?

[VegettoEX]

Where can I find a full list?

We haven't fully ported over everything just yet, but I could be swayed to plug away at it sooner than later.

Beer helps.

[ZombieVito]

Ah ok. I can wait, knowing me I will only had like 4.

[Kaboom]

I apologize on behalf of anyone who made such a remark at you. But I guess it's almost like a two-fold problem/symptom thing. The leading cause of rejecting or dissing some of these guidebook numbers is "taking the 'rules' of PLs too seriously," and I suppose that can cause a sort of wall to automatically form.

Since the "old" battle powers guide from Kanzentai hasn't quite been completely ported here to Kanzenshuu yet, it can be read in archived form here. I keep it bookmarked for reference.

Where can I find a full list?

We haven't fully ported over everything just yet, but I could be swayed to plug away at it sooner than later.
Beer helps.

You need any "expert" help, just let me know.

[VegettoEX]

Worth noting that we have way more information being added to, edited, clarified, etc. compared to what's in the old Kanzentai version.

The fact that *I* actually worked on it is also impressive in and of itself.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah I agree but when one is told his list can't even be taken seriously for not following "official" numbers, it strikes a nerve. You guys convinced me to not trash the Daiz that much but I guess I could use the PL that make sense for me. Where can I find a full list? Or is those images from the Wiki the only ones?

Well if that annoys you then I will apologize first hand.

[RandomGuy96]

To change the subject a bit: I've debated about this a lot in the In Universe section of the site, but have not really got a definitive answer, so I thought it'd be appropriate to bring it to the power levels thread. If you're one of those people who places Cooler below 200 million, can you please tell me how that is logical in-universe, given every bit of information relating to his power? All the statements he makes, the reactions he and Goku have towards certain situations, and the information given about his power in other media (magazines, video games, et cetera) say that he's well over 200 million.