Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Yeah, Super Saiyan God coming back wouldn't really change my perspective on Goku's base strength. It would confirm that there aren't two bases though, which I suppose is the most intuitive notion to have at this point anyway.

Personally speaking it's my favorite transformation in the entire franchise, so I'll be very glad to see it again.

[ZombieVito]

That is the smartest thing Toyotaro has done in the manga, so I hope it is true as it would finally clear the confusion surrounding Goku's power in base.

Goku's normal base power was already cleared in past episodes.

This would complicate things, again.

Goku's base was shown as being below 18 but that's not really a clarification. If Goku goes SSG then it will be obvious there's only one base, which was retconned after RoF. This means Goku (and maybe Vegeta too) was able to fully merge the power of SSG between himself in the 3 years of ROSAT training, so his SSG-base has been replaced by SSG. Which should be better.

They having just one base will break many things since that base will be weaker than 18.

I honestly hope it doesn't happen.

[Bullza]

According to spoilers:

[spoiler]Goku turns SSG in 105.[/spoiler]

Well... Shit...

According to Herms he says there's a chance they could mean Super Saiyan Blue. I would really hope it wasn't just because it would be nice to see the form again and because it would finally get rid of the two base theory making it a lot less complicated.

It would also pretty much confirm that there was just one Base form above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks but below Super Saiyan God, as inconsistent as that would seem sometimes.

Like I said before, I don't think the anime and manga power scaling are as different as some people think it is.

[ZombieVito]

According to spoilers:

[spoiler]Goku turns SSG in 105.[/spoiler]

Well... Shit...

According to Herms he says there's a chance they could mean Super Saiyan Blue. I would really hope it wasn't just because it would be nice to see the form again and because it would finally get rid of the two base theory making it a lot less complicated.

It would also pretty much confirm that there was just one Base form above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks but below Super Saiyan God, as inconsistent as that would seem sometimes.

Like I said before, I don't think the anime and manga power scaling are as different as some people think it is.

Goku's base in the manga is not god tier.

If this happens then it will ruin many things.

Piccolo, 18, Roshi and Kuririn all surpassed Super Boo by doing what exactly?

Hell Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate form from the Boo arc in mere base but at the same time he isn't going by dialogue.

This would be a cluster fuck.

[Draconic]

According to spoilers:

[spoiler]Goku turns SSG in 105.[/spoiler]

Well... Shit...

I'll quote myself from the announcement thread.

If they do bring God back, it would be the best time to mention that Goku and Vegeta have been turning it's power on and off in base for a while, but only when fully using it's power do they actually turn Red. It could reconciliate the "Beyond God" base, below Piccolo base and SSG itself. Basically give us the manga progression, but with another black haired form in between 3 and God. Would solve most problems with the power scale, be a fair bit of fan service and make sense in universe.

Hell, if they're smart they can say that Goku and Vegeta don't use it because it still has the time limit, so using lesser forms when the opponent is not up to par, or Blue when they have a god level foe also gets explained. Or simply that Goku has mastered the God power recently and now can fully activate it in base, use Blue with Kaioken without much problems and hint at the new form.

They can make this work, now that I think about it more and since it's my favorite form I'm not opposed to see more of it, but they have to do it tastefuly.
If it's not a typo, of course.

If God does come back and is handled well, it could actually fix a lot of problems with the scaling. Otherwise, I don't think it fucks anything anymore than it already is, so at worst we just have another form, but still two vastly different base levels for Goku.

[Bullza]

Goku's base in the manga is not god tier.

If this happens then it will ruin many things.

Piccolo, 18, Roshi and Kuririn all surpassed Super Boo by doing what exactly?

Hell Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate form from the Boo arc in mere base but at the same time he isn't going by dialogue.

This would be a cluster fuck.

Well his Base in the anime isn't God Tier either. He was only ever God Tier as a Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue just like in the manga.

His Base strength would still be stronger though than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Whether that's also true in the manga we don't particularly know but if events during the Resurrection F saga were similar then he probably is.

I don't know where you got Roshi and Krillin being above Super Buu from, that wouldn't be the case at all. Gohan would be confusing though but he's always been confusing.

[ekrolo2]

SSGod is potentially coming back? I'll believe it when I see it but if it does happen....

[Doctor.]

Yeah, Super Saiyan God coming back wouldn't really change my perspective on Goku's base strength. It would confirm that there aren't two bases though, which I suppose is the most intuitive notion to have at this point anyway.

Personally speaking it's my favorite transformation in the entire franchise, so I'll be very glad to see it again.

The two-base theory was just a way to explain in-universe the fact that they very clearly have silently retconned Goku's base strength after the Copy-Vegeta mini-arc. Nothing changes.

[Marlowe89]

It would also pretty much confirm that there was just one Base form above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks but below Super Saiyan God, as inconsistent as that would seem sometimes.

Not really. It wouldn't tell us anything about base Goku's strength aside from the obvious fact that it's far below Super Saiyan God, but that's pretty much confirmed already.

The manga never implies at any point that base Goku is stronger than Gotenks. Even just going by recent showings in the anime, I'd wager that it's trying to be more consistent with the manga now if anything (whereas in RoF's case, they were just adapting the implied narrative of the film where base Goku was as strong as SSG). I think it's pretty clear that there was a silent retcon somewhere.

[zamasu121]

SSGod is potentially coming back? I'll believe it when I see it but if it does happen....

It still makes more sense than Vegeta having ssg in the manga.

[ekrolo2]

SSGod is potentially coming back? I'll believe it when I see it but if it does happen....

It's still makes more sense than Vegeta having ssg in the manga.

The manga at least kept the post BoG business a total mystery, the anime flat out has SSGod get absorbed and nothing, fucking nothing ever at all implies Goku can use it again.

The only worse scenario is if anime Vegeta gets it too despite the fact we 100% know for a fact the anime continuity DOESN'T have him go through with the ritual.

[zamasu121]

SSGod is potentially coming back? I'll believe it when I see it but if it does happen....

It's still makes more sense than Vegeta having ssg in the manga.

The manga at least kept the post BoG business a total mystery, the anime flat out has SSGod get absorbed and nothing, fucking nothing ever at all implies Goku can use it again.

The only worse scenario is if anime Vegeta gets it too despite the fact we 100% know for a fact the anime continuity DOESN'T have him go through with the ritual.

If Goku goes ssg, then its another retcon to add to this inconsistent series, but Vegeta going ssg after the Champa arc is just as bad if not worse.

[ekrolo2]

It's still makes more sense than Vegeta having ssg in the manga.

The manga at least kept the post BoG business a total mystery, the anime flat out has SSGod get absorbed and nothing, fucking nothing ever at all implies Goku can use it again.

The only worse scenario is if anime Vegeta gets it too despite the fact we 100% know for a fact the anime continuity DOESN'T have him go through with the ritual.

If Goku goes ssg, then its another retcon to add to this inconsistent series, but Vegeta going ssg after the Champa arc is just as bad if not worse.

I don't see why it's an issue. The manga never specifies anything about Vegeta's training and the lack of absorption there leaves room for plausibility. The anime would be a thousand times worse because they kept the whole "SSG is a one time thing" aspect from the movie, meaning God can't return for either Goku or Vegeta.

[Bullza]

The manga never implies at any point that base Goku is stronger than Gotenks.

It doesn't no but Base Goku would still have to be very strong if he fought a powered up Frieza. There'd be no need to assume those events didn't play out the same as they did in the movie and anime.

In the anime they portrayed them as being that strong as of the end of the Copy Water arc. Again you'd also have to assume there was a retcon after thay which there just might not be.

The manga at least kept the post BoG business a total mystery, the anime flat out has SSGod get absorbed and nothing, fucking nothing ever at all implies Goku can use it again.

Seemingly he absorbed that power but he wasn't able to tap into that power freely again until he learnt how to become a Super Saiyan God again on his own in Whis' staff dimension.

At which point they'd learned how to become Super Saiyan Blue which was superior. I suppose there wasn't any particular reason why couldn't turn Super Saiyan God again.

They could in the manga. Why they never brought back into the anime again is something of a mystery though unless they were saving it for something important perhaps.

[Whatever]

According to spoilers:

[spoiler]Goku turns SSG in 105.[/spoiler]

Well... Shit...

According to Herms he says there's a chance they could mean Super Saiyan Blue. I would really hope it wasn't just because it would be nice to see the form again and because it would finally get rid of the two base theory making it a lot less complicated.

It would also pretty much confirm that there was just one Base form above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks but below Super Saiyan God, as inconsistent as that would seem sometimes.

Like I said before, I don't think the anime and manga power scaling are as different as some people think it is.

Goku's base in the manga is not god tier.

If this happens then it will ruin many things.

Piccolo, 18, Roshi and Kuririn all surpassed Super Boo by doing what exactly?

Hell Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate form from the Boo arc in mere base but at the same time he isn't going by dialogue.

This would be a cluster fuck.

By training,did you not accept it back in the saiyan saga when the humans made better gains in 1 year by training with Kami than Goku did in 3?
Or in the android arc when Piccolo got like 70 times stronger in 3 years while Goku did not even get 2 times stronger?

Its not clear where the humans and 18 stand in power now but taking dragonball history into account it would not be a surprise for them to get that strong anyways.
Previous power milestones are not milestones in the next arc anyways,after all i don't think you had a problem when everyone and their mother after raditz appeared were stronger than Goku and Piccolo were in the 23rd Budokai.

As for Gohan he was always confusing even since Tagoma appeared.
As an example Tagoma was as strong as his 'best'.Whatever he ment his Ultimate form or his current best does not matter(nor thats the point i am trying to make) because he still 2 shotted him,this is always gonna be a clusterfuck no matter how much we think about it.

[AvatarReiko]

Oooh, boy. The summary for episode 104 is going to spark a lot of controversy on the battle forums/versus threads all over the net.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Personally, I'm hoping that Freeza will be the key to figuring out the overall power-scaling. He's still implied to be super strong from his appearances so far, and I doubt he'd be retconned to weak-ass levels like people tend to do in their heads with Goku and Vegeta.

If the current base Saiyans are equivalent to him without the usage of Super Saiyan forms or stuff like that, or if the opposite happens, we'll have our answers once and for all.

[ZombieVito]

The manga never implies at any point that base Goku is stronger than Gotenks.

It doesn't no but Base Goku would still have to be very strong if he fought a powered up Frieza. There'd be no need to assume those events didn't play out the same as they did in the movie and anime.

Explain then why Goku compared SSJ2 Future Trunks to SSJ2 Kid Gohan if the former's base fucking murders the latter?

Doesn't make sense for them to have strong base forms in the manga.

[LowRyder2005]

According to Herms he says there's a chance they could mean Super Saiyan Blue. I would really hope it wasn't just because it would be nice to see the form again and because it would finally get rid of the two base theory making it a lot less complicated.

It would also pretty much confirm that there was just one Base form above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks but below Super Saiyan God, as inconsistent as that would seem sometimes.

Like I said before, I don't think the anime and manga power scaling are as different as some people think it is.

Goku's base in the manga is not god tier.

If this happens then it will ruin many things.

Piccolo, 18, Roshi and Kuririn all surpassed Super Boo by doing what exactly?

Hell Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate form from the Boo arc in mere base but at the same time he isn't going by dialogue.

This would be a cluster fuck.

By training,did you not accept it back in the saiyan saga when the humans made better gains in 1 year by training with Kami than Goku did in 3?
Or in the android arc when Piccolo got like 70 times stronger in 3 years while Goku did not even get 2 times stronger?

Its not clear where the humans and 18 stand in power now but taking dragonball history into account it would not be a surprise for them to get that strong anyways.
Previous power milestones are not milestones in the next arc anyways,after all i don't think you had a problem when everyone and their mother after raditz appeared were stronger than Goku and Piccolo were in the 23rd Budokai.

In basically every scenario you described the characters were either stronger than Goku before starting the "new" type of training (training they had never experienced before) and/or were also usually acknowledged by other characters as making some kind of impressive gains -- I think of the exchange between Vegeta and Nappa about Tien. Every other big and apparently counter-intuitive power-up is usually a major plot point (Goku vs. Freeza, Piccolo vs. Cell) or part the backbone of whatever arc you have in mind. Piccolo being massively stronger in the Android arc is also debatable, since the minimum implication is just that his power is very surprising to the humans.

For comparison purposes, in Super, we'd be dealing with someone like Krillin training with some weights he just bought and becoming somehow millions of times stronger; stronger than a Goku who trained with the best of the best of universe, living and dead, hoped to be. All the while, the narration also treats Krillin - for all intents and purposes - as the same character he always was. I'd reflect twice or thrice before adding the narrative aspect to the table. This is not even some "deus ex machina" writing, it's just something that breaks every sense of consistency previously established.

With that being said, I think it's nothing short of self-demonstrating that whoever writes Dragon Ball Super doesn't think of Krillin, #18 or Buu as fighters who are substantially different than whoever they were in Z. There are many reasons, starting from Super's ironic need to be easily digestible while arguably keeping most individuals confined to their long-established Dragon Ball related tropes. But, from a production standpoint, the script had nothing in particular going on for them bar episodes in which they were recruited. They trained a little: it wasn't shown, it wasn't brought to anyone's attention, and fitting with everything that was previously established it shouldn't have made them much stronger. There's no reason to believe they subverted any semblance of continuity in how the characters got stronger in the series.
I'm not referring to you specifically, but I strongly suspect that for those who think of them as absurdingly more powerful there's some wishful thinking partly at work; some kind of urge that bypasses a more cool-headed analysis of how a story ought to be built. Even people who are less geeky about "dem power levels" realize there's reason why Chiaotzu didn't surpass Freeza at any point in the series.

As for Gohan he was always confusing even since Tagoma appeared.
As an example Tagoma was as strong as his 'best'.Whatever he ment his Ultimate form or his current best does not matter(nor thats the point i am trying to make) because he still 2 shotted him,this is always gonna be a clusterfuck no matter how much we think about it.

That one instance is a non-issue: Gohan wasn't sure he could turn Super Saiyan, and said Tagoma was probably equal to him when he was rested. A tired Super Saiyan Gohan - who should be some dozens of times stronger, per Super's own narration - is far above Tagoma, whom was therefore supposed to be around a rested "untransformed" Gohan (although Piccolo being caught off guard makes him appear like a bigger deal than what he actually was).

[Loputousu]

Wow, apparently some people on Reddit think Aragney is stronger than Hit because he almost killed Dyspo and Dyspo is defeating Hit.

I really have to worry about the state of the fandom sometimes.

Yeah, Super Saiyan God coming back wouldn't really change my perspective on Goku's base strength. It would confirm that there aren't two bases though, which I suppose is the most intuitive notion to have at this point anyway.

No, it would just mean that Goku mastered SBG that he had back in RoF, or that there was a retcon. Dunno why some of you guys are so against the two base theory when the recent episodes have basically confirmed it with 18 > Base Goku among other things.