Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

This is interesting. Then summary 104 heavily implies that DBZ characters are not lightspeed

So Kid Goku was lightspeed yet Z characters were not? Good job, Toei.

Kid Goku wasn't lightspeed, and by the way Dyspo might be faster than light by a lot as far as we know. The only FTL feat we have is Beerus destroying half a planet in the beginning of Super, if I remember correctly.

[MisteryOne]

This is interesting. Then summary 104 heavily implies that DBZ characters are not lightspeed

So Kid Goku was lightspeed yet Z characters were not? Good job, Toei.

Kid Goku wasn't lightspeed, and by the way Dyspo might be faster than light by a lot as far as we know. The only FTL feat we have is Beerus destroying half a planet in the beginning of Super, if I remember correctly.

What? Kid Goku is lightspeed since his training with Popo. And during his battle years later with Piccolo, not even Kami could see them. DBZ characters not being lightspeed is bullshit and if that is Dyspo's power is just plain bad writing.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

So Kid Goku was lightspeed yet Z characters were not? Good job, Toei.

Kid Goku wasn't lightspeed, and by the way Dyspo might be faster than light by a lot as far as we know. The only FTL feat we have is Beerus destroying half a planet in the beginning of Super, if I remember correctly.

What? Kid Goku is lightspeed since his training with Popo. And during his battle years later with Piccolo, not even Kami could see them. DBZ characters not being lightspeed is bullshit and if that is Dyspo's power is just plain bad writing.

What?

[Bullza]

I'm not seeing how it's at all different from Goku and Vegeta themselves being said to have surpassed Gohan in their Super Saiyan 2 forms during the Buu Saga

But they'd be aware of the comparison being made. There's no point in telling Trunks he's stronger than someone he doesn't know.

In the anime he's not that weak either. He appears to be stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks in Base form and as a Super Saiyan 2 he was able to smack Super Saiyan Rose Black into a building.

That's definitely an over-complication on your part. All they'd really need to do is replace the super strong God base Goku with the actual Super Saiyan God form during the instance of fighting Final Form Frieza. That's it. The basic plot events wouldn't even have to change.

That's not over complicating it at all. The events of the Resurrection F saga in the manga would be similar to the other two versions, most readers would come to that conclusion anyway.

If Goku does turn into a Super Saiyan God in the anime soon then it'll mean Final Form Frieza wasn't anywhere close to as being as strong as Super Saiyan God. So for him to use it in the manga would also be confusing because it'd either make Frieza far stronger in the manga version or Goku easily beat him as a Super Saiyan God.

Aside from that, the shocked reaction from Piccolo and the others expressions to Goku turning into a Super Saiyan God against Hit would be kinda odd if he'd already done that against Frieza not long beforehand.

There's no need whatsoever for Toyotaro to change it up like that, there's no benefit to him doing something completely different from what Toriyama wrote and what was a key plot point and what people were familiar with. He decided to make them much weaker than other versions without there actually be a point of it because...why?

[Bullza]

Kid Goku wasn't lightspeed, and by the way Dyspo might be faster than light by a lot as far as we know. The only FTL feat we have is Beerus destroying half a planet in the beginning of Super, if I remember correctly.

Well there was Beerus flying from his house to that other planet in about minute or two in Episode 2.

It's hard to gauge how fast Dragon Ball characters are supposed to be. At the start of Z Piccolo fires a blast at the moon which is blown up straight afterward, His Special Beam Cannon is supposed to be even faster than this and yet Raditz is fast enough to dodge it.

A much powerful Piccolo can't even see Frieza's Death Beam move yet Goku can bat them away like it's nothing and then he can boost his speed 20 fold with the Kaioken and so on.

So they should be light speed but then at other times they don't seem like it. It took ages for Goku to travel snake way for example.

[emperior]

Kid Goku wasn't lightspeed, and by the way Dyspo might be faster than light by a lot as far as we know. The only FTL feat we have is Beerus destroying half a planet in the beginning of Super, if I remember correctly.

Well there was Beerus flying from his house to that other planet in about minute or two in Episode 2.

It's hard to gauge how fast Dragon Ball characters are supposed to be. At the start of Z Piccolo fires a blast at the moon which is blown up straight afterward, His Special Beam Cannon is supposed to be even faster than this and yet Raditz is fast enough to dodge it.

A much powerful Piccolo can't even see Frieza's Death Beam move yet Goku can bat them away like it's nothing and then he can boost his speed 20 fold with the Kaioken and so on.

So they should be light speed but then at other times they don't seem like it. It took ages for Goku to travel snake way for example.

This is proof Toriyama didn't intend his characters to be FTL and even if we had to make a lot of calculations to prove they are, it would go against Toriyama's true intentions.
The author himself said he doesn't want people to overanalyze these stuffs in his manga, as he didn't do calculations in the first place.
By the way, with a PL of around 5000 (as he was still holding back) it took Goku 27 hours to finish the Snake Way. That should be 9947 m/s, while the speed of light is of 299 792 458 m/s. It took Goku 177 days to finish the Snake Way the first time and he had a PL of 400, so with a 12.5x increase he got THAT fast to complete the road in just 27 hours. So obviously one would guess Goku would be way faster than light by the time he turned into a Super Saiyan, but if Dyspo shocks Goku with his speed (and if he is clearly confirmed to be as fast as light or just a little faster) then it means Dyspo is the first confirmed character to ever break the speed of light barrier. And I wouldn't care if it is like this, because it wouldn't contradict anything.

[Kishido]

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/894447693010845697



My boy Freeza. LOL at your RoSaT training Vegeta

[LowRyder2005]

This is proof Toriyama didn't intend his characters to be FTL and even if we had to make a lot of calculations to prove they are, it would go against Toriyama's true intentions.
The author himself said he doesn't want people to overanalyze these stuffs in his manga, as he didn't do calculations in the first place.
By the way, with a PL of around 5000 (as he was still holding back) it took Goku 27 hours to finish the Snake Way. That should be 9947 m/s, while the speed of light is of 299 792 458 m/s. It took Goku 177 days to finish the Snake Way the first time and he had a PL of 400, so with a 12.5x increase he got THAT fast to complete the road in just 27 hours. So obviously one would guess Goku would be way faster than light by the time he turned into a Super Saiyan, but if Dyspo shocks Goku with his speed (and if he is clearly confirmed to be as fast as light or just a little faster) then it means Dyspo is the first confirmed character to ever break the speed of light barrier. And I wouldn't care if it is like this, because it wouldn't contradict anything.

Agreed. There's also other stuff like Gotenks circling the globe multiple times, but since this is the first time lightspeed has been brought up as an arguably relevant plot point it should be treated accordingly.

[Helios518]

The Snake Way feat doesn't contradict Goku being FTL in combat speed, it shows how fast Goku is in travel speed.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Is Vegeta really weaker than Golden Freeza?

Because that just seems so....odd. It's funny. Goku did say he and Vegeta would be able to handle Freeza if he got out of line, but eh....

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Is Vegeta really weaker than Golden Freeza?

Because that just seems so....odd. It's funny. Goku did say he and Vegeta would be able to handle Freeza if he got out of line, but eh....

Goku said that, factoring in the context that Freeza hadn't gotten stronger and/or hadn't solved his stamina issues, meaning that him or Vegeta could've beaten Freeza on their own at that point, whether it be purely through greater strength or outlasting Golden Freeza's stamina issues.

Considering everything Vegeta's done thus far, I'm inclined to say that the Twitter post merely didn't outline Vegeta for some odd reason. By all accounts, he is, at the very least, dead even with Goku in the same forms.

[Marlowe89]

But they'd be aware of the comparison being made. There's no point in telling Trunks he's stronger than someone he doesn't know.

I already addressed this in my previous post.

If Goku does turn into a Super Saiyan God in the anime soon then it'll mean Final Form Frieza wasn't anywhere close to as being as strong as Super Saiyan God.

Final Form Frieza was absolutely intended to be near that level though, at least originally. There's all the supplementary material for Resurrection F suggesting base Goku to be as strong as SSG, not to mention that a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is even mentioned in Super's dialogue. Having Goku use the form against Frieza in a hypothetical DBS manga version of RoF wouldn't really change much in that regard.

It kind of seems like our whole argument is going around in circles at this point. You don't seem to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that the manga's scale isn't that high in comparison and that the anime might have changed their own scale to be more consistent with the manga's (although I seem to recall you making this argument once, did you change your mind at some point?) whereas I'm quite nearly convinced that's what happened. We'll just have to agree to disagree here -- I seriously doubt either medium is currently portraying base Goku/Vegeta to be that powerful at all, certainly not with every recent showing cited.

[Bullza]

although I seem to recall you making this argument once, did you change your mind at some point?

I probably did, I seem to change my opinions all the time, this whole two base theory I've gone around in a circle with twice now.

I originally thought the manga was quite different from the anime when I thought the anime did have a Base and a Saiyan Beyond God but now I don't think it does. Now I just think it's as simple as them having a Base form stronger than it ever was in Z but even with the regular Super Saiyan forms it's not nearly as strong as God.

So if the anime is like that and the manga is already half like that with Goku's Base and Super Saiyan forms being below Super Saiyan God then why can't the other half be truth as well and events just be similar to the series?

We'll see though, now that they're into the Universe Survival saga in the manga they might have make it clear if Goku fights some of his teammates.

[Bullza]

Agreed. There's also other stuff like Gotenks circling the globe multiple times, but since this is the first time lightspeed has been brought up as an arguably relevant plot point it should be treated accordingly.

I can understand the Gotenks feat not being faster than light but Beerus travelled from his home to the dinosaur planet in a small amount of time. I'm sure it worked out that he was 3/4 the speed of Whis and Whis' is ridiculously faster than light.

Then Goku kept up with Beerus just fine so it would be a bit out of place if they suddenly start having trouble with energy attacks that are light speed.

Even back in the Cell Games you had this happen

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Where Cell fires a Kamehameha at Goku, he uses IT to avoid it, then in the tiny fraction of time it took for Goku to reappear behind Cell, that Kamehameha was already well off into space.

[Whatever]

In basically every scenario you described the characters were either stronger than Goku before starting the "new" type of training (training they had never experienced before) and/or were also usually acknowledged by other characters as making some kind of impressive gains -- I think of the exchange between Vegeta and Nappa about Tien. Every other big and apparently counter-intuitive power-up is usually a major plot point (Goku vs. Freeza, Piccolo vs. Cell) or part the backbone of whatever arc you have in mind.

Not really,Tien was the strongest of the humans and he had a powerlevel of 250 while King Piccolo(youth restored)had a powerlevel of 280 and Kid Goku defeated him and thats before he trained with Kami.
Impressive gains are only mentioned or acknowledged when they are important at the current point in the story.Did Cell saga Yamcha surpass saiyan saga Vegeta?
Most likely if not certain.Was it a big deal being stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta at this point of the story?
No,after all they would have no reason to acknowledge a character surpassing a previous power milestone when said power does not matter now.

Piccolo being massively stronger in the Android arc is also debatable, since the minimum implication is just that his power is very surprising to the humans.

We have direct statemens and feats that prove he is stronger than Namek Freeza.Krillin even compared his power to a super saiyan.
Regardless where you think android arc Piccolo stands,the point still stands he made the most gains out of his group despite all of them doing the same training.

For comparison purposes, in Super, we'd be dealing with someone like Krillin training with some weights he just bought and becoming somehow millions of times stronger; stronger than a Goku who trained with the best of the best of universe, living and dead, hoped to be.
All the while, the narration also treats Krillin - for all intents and purposes - as the same character he always was. I'd reflect twice or thrice before adding the narrative aspect to the table. This is not even some "deus ex machina" writing, it's just something that breaks every sense of consistency previously established.

See thats a big problem.You talk about consistency in training gains,when there never was.Again humans trained for 1 years with Kami and made more than 10 times the gains Goku did in 3.
4 years after the 23rd Budokai,Goku and Piccolo barely made any gains,yet Piccolo trains 1 years with Gohan doing the same thing he was doing during the previous 4 years and they both jump to over 2000.Thats without taking into account aliens that never trained yet eclipse everything about OC dragonball power wise.

Then comes android arc,Goku,Gohan and Piccolo train and guess what?Still nobody makes any consistent gains.Piccolo's gain dwarf everything,Goku has not even doubled in power and Gohan's gains are irrelevent to the point nobody even mention them.
Then the rosat gains are next,all people there make impressive gains,the strongest pre rosat character Piccolo makes the least gains and Gohan the weaker pre rosat character becomes the strongest of them all by a margin and thats without ssj2 yet.And before you say,no the potential excuse does not make sense because Gohan made the least gains out of all in the 3 year preparation and despite being more than 100 times weaker than all other characters that used the rosat,he still came out on top somehow.

When that happened you,me and all others accepted despite how it did not make any sense or being in any way consistent with what we were shown before.

With that being said, I think it's nothing short of self-demonstrating that whoever writes Dragon Ball Super doesn't think of Krillin, #18 or Buu as fighters who are substantially different than whoever they were in Z. There are many reasons, starting from Super's ironic need to be easily digestible while arguably keeping most individuals confined to their long-established Dragon Ball related tropes. But, from a production standpoint, the script had nothing in particular going on for them bar episodes in which they were recruited. They trained a little: it wasn't shown, it wasn't brought to anyone's attention, and fitting with everything that was previously established it shouldn't have made them much stronger. There's no reason to believe they subverted any semblance of continuity in how the characters got stronger in the series.

They clearly got much stronger,how much stronger i don't know.I never said they are stronger than super buu,just that if they were i would not be surprised.
Again if you notice even the original manga has no consistency in how characters get stronger in the series.
I think we can both agree that training gains became more ridouculous as the series went on and even more hilarious how obsolete previous power milestones become as the series goes on as well.

I'm not referring to you specifically, but I strongly suspect that for those who think of them as absurdingly more powerful there's some wishful thinking partly at work; some kind of urge that bypasses a more cool-headed analysis of how a story ought to be built. Even people who are less geeky about "dem power levels" realize there's reason why Chiaotzu didn't surpass Freeza at any point in the series.

I think its simple enough.Despite what people think there is no limitation on how much stronger each character can get by doing X training outside of writing.

How a story ought to be built and how it is build is a different thing altogether.Just because you or I OR anybody else finds a character's gains to not make any sense,that does not mean we must deny them and find a workaround theory about it or downgrade said character's power,we just have to accept it.

As for Chiaotzu,the reason he never supassed Namek Freeza is because he is not important enough to be given such gains,not to mention how strong Chiatzu is now is unknown,all we know is that he is weaker than all U7 members.
Lets say that Chiatzu is stronger than Namek Freeza now(not what i think,just an example)will the characters or story even acknowledge that fact?
No because Chiatzu as a character does not matter,neither does Namek Freeza's power since its pretty weak now despite being a major milestone in the past.

That one instance is a non-issue: Gohan wasn't sure he could turn Super Saiyan, and said Tagoma was probably equal to him when he was rested. A tired Super Saiyan Gohan - who should be some dozens of times stronger, per Super's own narration - is far above Tagoma, whom was therefore supposed to be around a rested "untransformed" Gohan (although Piccolo being caught off guard makes him appear like a bigger deal than what he actually was).

That still does not make any sense,even if he was only stronger than a current base Gohan at his best,then the fact that base Gohan sneak attacked him and he still took 0 damage does not connect well with it.
And thats even assuming by 'his best' meant current slacking off base form.Which still does not make any sense given the context of the situation.

[LowRyder2005]

Not really,Tien was the strongest of the humans and he had a powerlevel of 250 while King Piccolo(youth restored)had a powerlevel of 280 and Kid Goku defeated him and thats before he trained with Kami.
Impressive gains are only mentioned or acknowledged when they are important at the current point in the story.Did Cell saga Yamcha surpass saiyan saga Vegeta?
Most likely if not certain.Was it a big deal being stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta at this point of the story?
No,after all they would have no reason to acknowledge a character surpassing a previous power milestone when said power does not matter now.

Yamcha was actually stated to be comparable to Saiyan saga Goku, given that his ki reading appearing compatible to Gero. He also had trained with King Kai while starting from a level beyond Goku's, so it's not exactly an unfathomable kind of power-up. Then again, the point was that there's clearly a sense of progression in the older series. At some point, aforementioned characters were unable to catch up for the simple reason that the plot devices related to Goku's own progression (Kami, King Kai) disappeared.
In the post-Cell Game Some characters simply gave up training, while others had to rely to extreme transformations or other devices to become substantially stronger. Piccolo, who was always envisioned as someone who kept up with a training regime, also didn't get abnormally stronger in many years. Same for Goku and Vegeta.

I'll stress that I'm not advocating for complete linearity, but for some semblance of organic building, which is the main point of my contention -- since your rationale appears to be that Super is not that much worse (while, accepting your implications, I don't see how it would definitely notbe worse).

We have direct statemens and feats that prove he is stronger than Namek Freeza.Krillin even compared his power to a super saiyan.

As a matter of fact no, we don't. Krillin was just suprised that Piccolo's power was that high without being a Super Saiyan; given that the gap between the Earthlings/ Piccolo and a Super Saiyan encompassed many tens of millions, and that the only four people whom at that pointed surpass that particular benchmark were Goku and Trunks (along with Freeza and Cold), at bare minimum it means that Piccolo had broken the barrier previously broken by these characters, which may fall off well within a more vague "some" millions mark and not the extreme end of the scale.

What you're making it look like is like Krillin stated directly that Piccolo had power strictly comparable to that of a Super Saiyan, as in "he's as strong as a Super Saiyan"; but it might not be necessarily the same.

See thats a big problem.You talk about consistency in training gains,when there never was.

Again, no, and I still feel you're generalizing. It's unarguable that there was at least some consistency in the original manga. While, for better or worse, I understand the criticism of the jump between the Piccolo Daimao and the Saiyan arc, but you may also talk about some higher learning curve phenomenon in the beginning for the characters (and lack of worthy opponents) if you wanted to rationalize it. After that it follows a somewhat intuitive progression.

The Saiyan saga: Piccolo trains with Gohan, who has an abnormally high potential and surpassed his dad almost immediately. He becomes understandably stronger. The humans are either stronger than kid Goku or around that level, and they train with Kami together. Their training results are acknoweldged as, also, a fairly big feat in the manga.

Namek arc: Piccolo is about eight or ten times stronger than Goku was, trains together with King Kai and other worthy training partners. It's unclear however stronger he gets after if not for the fact that he impresses Nail. The humans train with King Kai and make probably marginal gains, Krillin gets his potential unlocked.

Android arc: Everyone trains as if their lives depend on it, because they do. The humans end up around the Saiyan arc/ low-Namek arc foes; Piccolo gets a new body, which is enough for me to rationalize the fact he may hit new ceilings, trains with Super Saiyan Goku and the prodigy Gohan (who also had his potential unlocked). We just know that Piccolo is much stronger than the humans in the Android arc. Specific and foreshadowed plot device makes Piccolo even stronger. Strange life-draining technique helps the much weaker Tien survive against an undefeatable foe. Vegeta and Trunks train as Super Saiyans together for the first time and they become stronger.

Cell Game: Goku and Gohan train together as Super Saiyans for the first time and use new cutting-edge meditation techniques. Their following returns on training are acknoweldged as potentially so diminishing they do not bother training anymore; humans aren't acknoweldged as much stronger, which yields them incredible gains.

Buu arc: everyone more or less hit their limit, Vegeta caught up with Goku. Goku's only improvement in six years is unlocking a new transformation that increased his power manyfold. To beat the new universal threats extemporary solutions like Fusion are inserted in the story.

the potential excuse does not make sense because Gohan made the least gains out of all in the 3 year preparation and despite being more than 100 times weaker than all other characters that used the rosat,he still came out on top somehow.

I don't really see it as an issue. Besides, there's nothing really suggesting that Gohan was that weak at that point in the series. He could've easily hit a level not too far off from Namek's base Goku by virtue of his training with Piccolo and his Super Saiyan father after having his potential unlocked. Given the sort of progression would it really come off as eyebrow-raising?

They clearly got much stronger,how much stronger i don't know.I never said they are stronger than super buu,just that if they were i would not be surprised.

By following the rationale that "the manga did the same"? In general, I think your argument boils down to what's arguably an indirect false equivalance.
The scenario you'd be looking for, in that case, would not be "Piccolo became a dozen of times stronger training with a super-powerful new training partner", but something like "Muten Roshi stopped training, learns of the Cell Game, prepares for it on his island and at the Cell Game he can keep up with Perfect Cell".

And no, there's nothing as strange or as narratively hampering as that in the manga (the anime does take itself less seriously on more than occasion, though).

With that being said, I think that trying to put yourself in the shoes of a scriptwriter who's writing an easily digestible show might help you see this from a different perspective. You write a script that basically amounts to "Krillin and co. train a little to get back in shape": what's there to make anyone think this training now made them hundreds , thousands, millions of times stronger? Nothing. What's there in the narration that treats this supposedly miraculous power-up as something unprecedented? Nothing. Is there a precedent for such a gargantuan power-ups? No. Does it fit with the established lore? Hardly, at least without additional explanation, half-baked or not.

That still does not make any sense,even if he was only stronger than a current base Gohan at his best,then the fact that base Gohan sneak attacked him and he still took 0 damage does not connect well with it.
And thats even assuming by 'his best' meant current slacking off base form.Which still does not make any sense given the context of the situation.

You need to remember that Gohan didn't really believe he could've used his Super Saiyan form at his leasure, which was obviously factored out when he made the comparison. Gohan also can't hurt Tagoma at all when he tries to attack him in base, and his (tired) Super Saiyan form obliterates the opponent.

What exactly doesn't sit well with you about that scene? Base Gohan says the guy could be tough because at their current level they'd equal if they were both rested, while he and the others have been fighting goons nonstop for an awful lot of time. Gohan uses a transformation that wasn't sure he could control well and - tired or not - wins effortlessly. It's quite easy to deduce that the idea was "base = Tagoma < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Ultimate", especially after the confusion regarding what Gohan's strength and what his Ultimate form was cleared up by ep. 95.

[LowRyder2005]

Agreed. There's also other stuff like Gotenks circling the globe multiple times, but since this is the first time lightspeed has been brought up as an arguably relevant plot point it should be treated accordingly.

I can understand the Gotenks feat not being faster than light but Beerus travelled from his home to the dinosaur planet in a small amount of time. I'm sure it worked out that he was 3/4 the speed of Whis and Whis' is ridiculously faster than light.

Then Goku kept up with Beerus just fine so it would be a bit out of place if they suddenly start having trouble with energy attacks that are light speed.

Even back in the Cell Games you had this happen

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Where Cell fires a Kamehameha at Goku, he uses IT to avoid it, then in the tiny fraction of time it took for Goku to reappear behind Cell, that Kamehameha was already well off into space.

I don't think it's really supposed to fit in a "bigger picture" sense. My point was more something similar to "it looks like they're treating everything that came before as slower than light". I mean, a single panel or may visually contradict it for "rule of coolness" and such, but I think what constitutes the last "major" plot point in which we can really calculate speed and make a guess of the authorial intent behind it really dates back to the Snake's Way.

On a level, I also think it might be appropriate to differentiate between the infamous "FTL reactions" and travel speed, as some other folk pointed out.

[Marlowe89]

So if the anime is like that and the manga is already half like that with Goku's Base and Super Saiyan forms being below Super Saiyan God then why can't the other half be truth as well and events just be similar to the series?

To be clear, I think we both wholeheartedly agree that the anime is more or less the same as the manga with the series' power-scaling now, especially with the establishment of things like the Dragon Ball Room initiative as well as the fact that certain interviews implied there was increased communication between Toei and Toyotaro. We obviously just differ as to how strong base Goku/Vegeta are actually supposed to be and I can admit that the confusion is understandable.

At the very least, we can say with clear certainty that the strength of the base Saiyans changed from what it was established to be in the RoF movie. I just think it happened to be changed during the Super anime, as opposed to between the films and Super.

[TheSaiyanGod]

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/894447693010845697



My boy Freeza. LOL at your RoSaT training Vegeta

Freeza is not stronger than Vegeta

No ranking of power was created in this magazine.
It was never said that Freeza was the second strongest and Vegeta was the third, for example.
It was only said that Goku was the strongest of the team, and that Freeza was on his level. These are the only data we have. But it's nothing new.

The anime has already established that Freeza is equal to Goku SSB, being inferior with the use of Kaioken.
This '' same level '' refers to ONLY his SSB, nothing more.

Meanwhile, Vegeta's level has not been established in any moment, so we have no basis to say that Freeza is 2 ° stronger and even that Vegeta is, since only an affirmation that we knew since the EP 95 was reinforced.

[Bullza]

With all this Super Saiyan God talk people haven't really talked about the other thing.

Dyspo "pummeling" Hit. Do people think Dyspo really is that strong? He didn't seem too impressive against Aragney. I guess I overlooked him, he is shown along Jiren and Toppo in the ED.

Kinda hard to picture him being so much stronger than Hit. Even Goku didn't pummel him.