Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

I've always had the impression that what made Hit super formidable even for Blue tier characters was his hax abilities, not necessarily his strength. If Dyspo is one of the strongest Pride Troopers and additionally can circumvent Hit's Time-Skip with his speed, it makes sense to me that he'd have an advantage.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The only Hitto technique that gave Goku and Vegeta difficulty in the tournament was the Tokitobashi.

As Vegeta himself said, his speed was easy to follow (in the eyes of a Super Saiyan Blue at least), and his punches were "light" (though they were at vital points).

In a matter of strength, he was inferior to both, and we saw this when Goku understood how his technique worked and dominated Hitto during the fight until he improved it

[Bullza]

Well when Hit tried fighting Super Saiyan Blue Goku without using the Time Skip he was on the losing side of the fight.

They did say in the rematch that he was much stronger but that could always be referring to how he's gained new impressive hax abilities.

Hit is one of most dangerous characters in the series mainly because of his hax. If you strip that away from him though he's kind out of outmatched against any other Blue tier character.

[emperior]

Super Saiyan God is confirmed to be back by Toshio. What does it changes for you guys?
I believe this is further proof Goku and Vegeta aren't much stronger than in Buu arc in their base, and they were retconned after their ROSAT training. If we get no explanation, my headcanon is that Goku and Vegeta learned how to fully control SSG in their training, so their godly powered bases disappeared.
I doubt SSG powers a SSG-powered Goku up by the same amount it powered him up after the ritual. If it was like that, how come Goku is still weaker than Beerus?

[Lord Beerus]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about SSJG coming back. I really liked the SSJG form and I think that it should have lasted longer in the story. But on the other hand, it makes you wonder why Goku never bothered to use the form at any point until now. Whatever the case may be, they have to be super detailed and specific about how and why Goku is using SSJG now. They better have come up with a good explanation for this or it will retroactively ruin a hell of a lot of the story in Super so far. This also absolutely kills the two base theory dead.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about SSJG coming back. I really liked the SSJG form and I think that it should have lasted longer in the story. But on the other hand, it makes you wonder why Goku never bothered to use the form at any point until now. Whatever the case may be, they have to be super detailed and specific about how and why Goku is using SSJG now. They better have come up with a good explanation for this or it will retroactively ruin a hell of a lot of the story in Super so far. This also absolutely kills the two base theory dead.

I talked about this in an earlier post, but you're absolutely right. The anime team has been VERY careful about not re-introducing SSG, making sure all the scenarios where it DID appear in Toyotaro's manga were properly done with the direction they had already taken in eliminating the form after its introduction.

[TheMikado]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about SSJG coming back. I really liked the SSJG form and I think that it should have lasted longer in the story. But on the other hand, it makes you wonder why Goku never bothered to use the form at any point until now. Whatever the case may be, they have to be super detailed and specific about how and why Goku is using SSJG now. They better have come up with a good explanation for this or it will retroactively ruin a hell of a lot of the story in Super so far. This also absolutely kills the two base theory dead.

It does kill the two base theory but it doesn't kill what people have been saying since forever.

There should be a non-SSJ God ki based form between SSJ3 and SSB. People have been saying since forever that all the "canon" arcs were written with this concept in mind. Narratively it made sense despite is not actually insisting in the anime. The two base theory was always about what SHOULD be based on the narrative than what the anime was actually doing.

[Lord Beerus]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about SSJG coming back. I really liked the SSJG form and I think that it should have lasted longer in the story. But on the other hand, it makes you wonder why Goku never bothered to use the form at any point until now. Whatever the case may be, they have to be super detailed and specific about how and why Goku is using SSJG now. They better have come up with a good explanation for this or it will retroactively ruin a hell of a lot of the story in Super so far. This also absolutely kills the two base theory dead.

I talked about this in an earlier post, but you're absolutely right. The anime team has been VERY careful about not re-introducing SSG, making sure all the scenarios where it DID appear in Toyotaro's manga were properly done with the direction they had already taken in eliminating the form after its introduction.

I'm praying to God they don't royally fumble the re-introduction of Super Saiyan God. It could potentially resolve all of the power scaling issues that Super has. It could explain why the strength of Goku (and Vegeta's) base form fluctuate like crazy. Goku and Vegeta both have the Super Saiyan God form but they can only tap into portions of it for certain amounts of time. But in Goku's case, he's been secretly training to master the power of Super Saiyan God that he absorbed all the way back in the events of Battle Of Gods and has only recently managed to do it. Boom. All of the issues with Dragon Ball Super's power scaling and battle powers fixed in a instant.

Toei, for the love of God, don't fuck this up.

[ZombieVito]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about SSJG coming back. I really liked the SSJG form and I think that it should have lasted longer in the story. But on the other hand, it makes you wonder why Goku never bothered to use the form at any point until now. Whatever the case may be, they have to be super detailed and specific about how and why Goku is using SSJG now. They better have come up with a good explanation for this or it will retroactively ruin a hell of a lot of the story in Super so far. This also absolutely kills the two base theory dead.

I talked about this in an earlier post, but you're absolutely right. The anime team has been VERY careful about not re-introducing SSG, making sure all the scenarios where it DID appear in Toyotaro's manga were properly done with the direction they had already taken in eliminating the form after its introduction.

I'm praying to God they don't royally fumble the re-introduction of Super Saiyan God. It could potentially resolve all of the power scaling issues that Super has. It could explain why the strength of Goku (and Vegeta's) base form fluctuate like crazy. Goku and Vegeta both have the Super Saiyan God form but they can only tap into portions of it for certain amounts of time. But in Goku's case, he's been secretly training to master the power of Super Saiyan God that he absorbed all the way back in the events of Battle Of Gods and has only recently managed to do it. Boom. All of the issues with Dragon Ball Super's power scaling and battle powers fixed in a instant.

Toei, for the love God, don't fuck this up.

Let's hope so. Confirming they can tap to some of the power of the form in their base would resolved all issues but I'm sure they are going to fuck it up.

[Marlowe89]

Super Saiyan God is confirmed to be back by Toshio. What does it changes for you guys?

Not much. It does seem to finally kill the two base theory that I've been subscribing to for a while, but I'm okay with that; the whole concept would've just confused viewers anyway even if it was confirmed true. My perspective on base Goku's strength is still the same as it was before -- I think he's only maybe a few times stronger than he was in Z at the absolute most.

I don't think its reintroduction is magically going to explain all the power-scaling issues people have with the series as some have been hoping for though. That doesn't seem likely to happen at all and I think some users are expecting far too much there.

Right now, I'm just beyond excited to see the form again. Blue has been obnoxiously overused in this arc.

[Bullza]

So it is definitely confirmed then. That's good, for a couple reasons but for this thread in particular it does finally get rid of the idea of their being two bases.

I did sorta believe it was a thing at one point, not fully convinced, but after looking back at the Resurrection F saga and seeing the dialogue with the proper Crunchyroll subs it didn't make sense at all. How could Vegeta have been a Saiyan Beyond God when Goku arrived on the planet but he'd never experienced God Ki before going in Whis' staff?

It does seem like it more like the manga then we all originally believed.

Final Form Frieza is not God level which might ease some of the problems people had with him getting so strong. Vegeta didn't become God level from six months of cutting the grass.

It's going to make it a lot simpler moving forward.

So now that there is definitely just one Base form, how strong is it? Well stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta at least but is that still true? Is there now gonna be a retcon theory?

Rather than Goku being made weaker did they instead just make the others stronger? Is he just holding back? Etc. There's still gonna be some confusion, I wouldn't say there was a retcon just yet but we'll see.

[Saiyan007]

This is interesting. Then summary 104 heavily implies that DBZ characters are not lightspeed

So Kid Goku was lightspeed yet Z characters were not? Good job, Toei.

Kid Goku wasn't lightspeed, and by the way Dyspo might be faster than light by a lot as far as we know. The only FTL feat we have is Beerus destroying half a planet in the beginning of Super, if I remember correctly.

Not really we also have Beerus flying to the dinosaur planet and that alien convict Wagatash,the one Jaco was after flew from a different solar system to Earth in a couple of hours and we was only on Pre training Gohan level

[Loputousu]

The existence of SSG again doesn't disprove the two base theory. The two base theory simply says that Base Goku and Vegeta's strengths fluctuates like crazy depending on the usage of god ki. It is needed to explain why their strength fluctuates in DBS when it did not in DBZ.

Base = no god ki base
SBG = base with god ki, but imperfect (ki can be felt)
SSG = perfected god ki base (ki cannot be felt)

Not sure why some people are so obsessed with disproving the two base theory when just about everyone can admit that their strength fluctuates abnormally (stronger than SS3 Gotenks to weaker than 18).

[Draconic]

So it is definitely confirmed then. That's good, for a couple reasons but for this thread in particular it does finally get rid of the idea of their being two bases.

I did sorta believe it was a thing at one point, not fully convinced, but after looking back at the Resurrection F saga and seeing the dialogue with the proper Crunchyroll subs it didn't make sense at all. How could Vegeta have been a Saiyan Beyond God when Goku arrived on the planet but he'd never experienced God Ki before going in Whis' staff?

It does seem like it more like the manga then we all originally believed.

Final Form Frieza is not God level which might ease some of the problems people had with him getting so strong. Vegeta didn't become God level from six months of cutting the grass.

It's going to make it a lot simpler moving forward.

So now that there is definitely just one Base form, how strong is it? Well stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta at least but is that still true? Is there now gonna be a retcon theory?

Rather than Goku being made weaker did they instead just make the others stronger? Is he just holding back? Etc. There's still gonna be some confusion, I wouldn't say there was a retcon just yet but we'll see.

The thing is Super Saiyan God and one super strong base doesn't work. If Goku at more or less his Buu Arc level in Battle of Gods got strong enough to rival Beerus who at the very least Super Vegetto couldn't do crap to (putting aside a potential SSJ3 Vegetto) then this powered up base Goku, stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, should benefit from God so much that it would make him a lot stronger than his BoG incarnation.

If Super Saiyan God is more or less equal to his first appearence and seeing that Blue will still be his strongest form, it implies Goku's base is only a little powered up from BoG, therefore having it above SSJ3 Gotenks is impossible.

With the reintroduction of God they either have to explain that it's been used in a base-like state, aka Saiyan-Beyond God, but never to the point where the saiyans transformed, or we have to admit post Ressurection F Toriyama just retconned everything to the early levels and the instances where Goku is seemingly that strong are due to miscomunnication between the parties.

[TheMikado]

The existence of SSG again doesn't disprove the two base theory. The two base theory simply says that Base Goku and Vegeta's strengths fluctuates like crazy depending on the usage of god ki. It is needed to explain why their strength fluctuates in DBS when it did not in DBZ.

Base = no god ki base
SBG = base with god ki, but imperfect (ki can be felt)
SSG = perfected god ki base (ki cannot be felt)

Not sure why some people are so obsessed with disproving the two base theory when just about everyone can admit that their strength fluctuates abnormally (stronger than SS3 Gotenks to weaker than 18).

This is absolutely true. Taking the theory too literally takes away from the design and abstract usage of its development and persistence. It was created because exposition was not provided. Having SSG still does not answer the question of how strong base Goku is which is the question the theory sought to answer.

I've said this before but the theory isn't about what is presented but rather what it should be based on the narrative.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about SSJG coming back. I really liked the SSJG form and I think that it should have lasted longer in the story. But on the other hand, it makes you wonder why Goku never bothered to use the form at any point until now. Whatever the case may be, they have to be super detailed and specific about how and why Goku is using SSJG now. They better have come up with a good explanation for this or it will retroactively ruin a hell of a lot of the story in Super so far. This also absolutely kills the two base theory dead.

It does kill the two base theory but it doesn't kill what people have been saying since forever.

There should be a non-SSJ God ki based form between SSJ3 and SSB. People have been saying since forever that all the "canon" arcs were written with this concept in mind. Narratively it made sense despite is not actually insisting in the anime. The two base theory was always about what SHOULD be based on the narrative than what the anime was actually doing.

The existence of SSG again doesn't disprove the two base theory. The two base theory simply says that Base Goku and Vegeta's strengths fluctuates like crazy depending on the usage of god ki. It is needed to explain why their strength fluctuates in DBS when it did not in DBZ.

Base = no god ki base
SBG = base with god ki, but imperfect (ki can be felt)
SSG = perfected god ki base (ki cannot be felt)

Not sure why some people are so obsessed with disproving the two base theory when just about everyone can admit that their strength fluctuates abnormally (stronger than SS3 Gotenks to weaker than 18).

I think this could be a perfect opportunity to explain that, basically the instances of RoF strong Base Goku against Final Form Frieza, strong Base Goku against Monaka-Beerus, and strong Base Goku against Copy-Vegeta are all Saiyan Beyond God.

This Saiyan Beyond God is the incomplete training of Super Saiyan God. Goku quit using Saiyan Beyond God after Copy-Vegeta and trained secretly to turn it into Super Saiyan God.

Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK

[Loputousu]

The existence of SSG again doesn't disprove the two base theory. The two base theory simply says that Base Goku and Vegeta's strengths fluctuates like crazy depending on the usage of god ki. It is needed to explain why their strength fluctuates in DBS when it did not in DBZ.

Base = no god ki base
SBG = base with god ki, but imperfect (ki can be felt)
SSG = perfected god ki base (ki cannot be felt)

Not sure why some people are so obsessed with disproving the two base theory when just about everyone can admit that their strength fluctuates abnormally (stronger than SS3 Gotenks to weaker than 18).

This is absolutely true. Taking the theory too literally takes away from the design and abstract usage of its development and persistence. It was created because exposition was not provided. Having SSG still does not answer the question of how strong base Goku is which is the question the theory sought to answer.

I've said this before but the theory isn't about what is presented but rather what it should be based on the narrative.

I don't even think the writers know or care about it. It's just a tool that we invented to explain the strange fluctuations in power that Base Goku and Vegeta have, and it works.

It is very easy to explain why SBG and SSG can coexist, too. Maybe in the anime, compared to the manga, it took a lot more training for Goku to advance SBG to SSG.

I think this could be a perfect opportunity to explain that, basically the instances of RoF strong Base Goku against Final Form Frieza, strong Base Goku against Monaka-Beerus, and strong Base Goku against Copy-Vegeta are all Saiyan Beyond God.

This Saiyan Beyond God is the incomplete training of Super Saiyan God. Goku quit using Saiyan Beyond God after Copy-Vegeta and trained secretly to turn it into Super Saiyan God.

Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK

Yeah, but that's almost certainly not going to happen, because the writers don't care about power level consistency. The only thing I recall them explaining well was using Kaioken with SSB. That's it. The two base theory is not really intended by the writers, it's just a necessary tool invented by the watchers to make sense of a stupid story.

[Bullza]

The thing is Super Saiyan God and one super strong base doesn't work. If Goku at more or less his Buu Arc level in Battle of Gods got strong enough to rival Beerus who at the very least Super Vegetto couldn't do crap to (putting aside a potential SSJ3 Vegetto) then this powered up base Goku, stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, should benefit from God so much that it would make him a lot stronger than his BoG incarnation.

If Super Saiyan God is more or less equal to his first appearence and seeing that Blue will still be his strongest form, it implies Goku's base is only a little powered up from BoG, therefore having it above SSJ3 Gotenks is impossible.

I'm not sure I'm following exactly. Are you saying that if Base Goku was hundreds of times stronger than back in the Battle of Gods saga that it would also mean the current Super Saiyan God would be hundreds of times stronger than back in the Battle of Gods saga?

If so then I'm not sure if that has to be true. Super Saiyan God is a separate source of power, it might not be like the other forms that come from his own power, it might not be a multiplier in that way.

His Base and Super Saiyan forms could be far beyond what they were before but the Super Saiyan God power could be pretty much the same.

[Lord Frieza]

Well until episode 104 roles round all the speculation is moot. We are going to have to see exactly what Toei are pulling before we can say anything meaningful.

Edit: On another topic I would not say Hit can be that weak compared to SSB. If it was just his time skip that made him a threat Goku should have had him dead to rites when he stacked a KKx10 on top of his god power, yet Hit takes multiple detect hits and a Kamehameha but is still going strong before the end.

[Marlowe89]

This is absolutely true. Taking the theory too literally takes away from the design and abstract usage of its development and persistence. It was created because exposition was not provided. Having SSG still does not answer the question of how strong base Goku is which is the question the theory sought to answer.

I've said this before but the theory isn't about what is presented but rather what it should be based on the narrative.

I suppose you could say I still believe in a kind of "two base theory"; more specifically, that Goku's base form was once intended to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Super just like it was during the RoF film. It's clear that they've changed that narrative completely now though since the Saiyans' base strength has been consistently portrayed to be much closer to their Z/BoG levels recently.

Again, I think that's just an obvious consequence of the increased communication between Toei and Toyotaro -- it is ultimately in neither party's benefit to have their power scales diverge so drastically that cross-medium fans would be left confused, and even Toshio has implied that Super's writers try to derive their scaling from Toriyama's original drafts as much as possible. Retconning things like this is never something I'd call an example of good writing, but it is what it is.

That said, I definitely don't think there's currently any intention on the part of the writers to have two bases exist at the same time. Perhaps there never was.

If so then I'm not sure if that has to be true. Super Saiyan God is a separate source of power, it might not be like the other forms that come from his own power, it might not be a multiplier in that way.

Even if Super Saiyan God does have a multiplier, the one we'll see in Episode 104 shouldn't be much stronger than the one in BoG. Beerus confirmed that the form enabled him to possess the "Power of the Gods" in the first arc, but recently that term was only used to describe Blue. In turn, this would have to mean that Goku's SS-SS3 forms were never quite as powerful in comparison.