Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Zelvin]

Could've just as easily said that Vegeta had them sent off to visit Tarble for some contrived reason. Or Goku could've IT'd them to King Kai's place to train. All of which can still be because they're reckless as they were against Buu, Abo and Cado, and Beerus. They get too cocky and overconfident once fused. And they talk a lot of trash too as Gotenks and it gets kinda dumb.

Maybe Toriyama just wanted to new kids out so he could give some much needed love to the Old, Original cast members who've been getting sidelined since the Saiyan Saga.

[jjgp1112]

quote]...? What the fuck are you even talking about?

The people the city Gero blew up. Also the people on the islands that Cell blew up.

So now you're saying that a decision that the entire cast made to fight is a DIRECT fault of Goku's and not the two Androids who decided to, y'know, blow the island up on their volition because they decided to "misinterpret" Goku's request? Making a decision to fight that may cause consequences isn't remotely comparable to acting like a bunch of immature dipshits during a fight when the fate of the universe rests on your shoulders and your parents have been killed.

Maybe Toriyama just wanted to new kids out so he could give some much needed love to the Old, Original cast members who've been getting sidelined since the Saiyan Saga.

Yeah, but they're weak! Because you see, the only thing that matters in Dragon Ball is power and that's how we determine the entirety of a character's worth to the story!

[RandomGuy96]

Wouldn't have mattered either way. At least SOME of the Androids were already made, and Goku and the others attacking at that point likely would have resulted in their deaths. Heck, Gero's computer was already active and harvesting DNA for Cell.

For all the talk of how they should have attacked then, it probably would have lead to a mass grave regardless.

That being said, you really are indeed insisting that everyone there had to have appeared right there in the water and drowned. I doubt that's the case, especially given Shenron's power now being more in-line with how Porunga can do things. And still not Goku's fault, man.

Extremely questionable, at best. No one brings up the possibility of the 'droids being close to done. Goku acknowledges the possibility of stopping it before it begins, but then says he doesn't want to, because fighting would be more fun. If the 'droids were done, there'd be no three year wait. And even if they WERE done, it wouldn't have mattered; they could have just killed Gero before he could activate them.

Definitely Goku's fault. Again, no androids = no destroyed city = no dead people, aside from the ones Cell killed. Also, using that last wish on the islands = no drownings.

How do you know they didn't bring them back during the 7 years?

How do you know they did? Heck, when they have a spare wish to use, they don't bother using it to bring back Gero's victims! It's clear that they just forgot about that city of people that died due to Goku being a selfish prick.

So now you're saying that a decision that the entire cast made to fight is a DIRECT fault of Goku's and not the two Androids who decided to, y'know, blow the island up on their volition because they decided to "misinterpret" Goku's request? Making a decision to fight that may cause consequences isn't remotely comparable to acting like a bunch of immature dipshits during a fight when the fate of the universe rests on your shoulders and your parents have been killed.

Yes, it is the fault of Goku and the idiots that agreed with him: Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan (all of which are being allowed to fight in this movie despite their recklessness, by the way). If Goku had simply taken the easy option that he explicitly acknowledged the existence of, those people wouldn't have died. But no no no, that'd mean that Goku would have to put his own selfish desires below the lives of thousands of innocent people. We can't have that. So he lets the androids get created, they go on a killing spree, as Trunks said they would, the people stay dead, and no one gives a shit.

Except Gotenks never did that. After he went SS3 (which is all that mattered; everything before may as well not have happened, because he always just had 5 minutes), he attacked Buu mercilessly, actually screwing around with him significantly less than Goku and Vegeta screw around with every major enemy that they fight. Keeping them out of the fight because of their supposed recklessness doesn't make any sense when the people they actually brought to 'help' are complete morons who have caused ten times as much damage as these two.

[ShadowWolf87]

The raw for the 2nd chapter is out btw.

...brb

[NavonWise]

Wouldn't have mattered either way. At least SOME of the Androids were already made, and Goku and the others attacking at that point likely would have resulted in their deaths. Heck, Gero's computer was already active and harvesting DNA for Cell.

For all the talk of how they should have attacked then, it probably would have lead to a mass grave regardless.

That being said, you really are indeed insisting that everyone there had to have appeared right there in the water and drowned. I doubt that's the case, especially given Shenron's power now being more in-line with how Porunga can do things. And still not Goku's fault, man.

Extremely questionable, at best. No one brings up the possibility of the 'droids being close to done. Goku acknowledges the possibility of stopping it before it begins, but then says he doesn't want to, because fighting would be more fun. If the 'droids were done, there'd be no three year wait. And even if they WERE done, it wouldn't have mattered; they could have just killed Gero before he could activate them.

Definitely Goku's fault. Again, no androids = no destroyed city = no dead people, aside from the ones Cell killed. Also, using that last wish on the islands = no drownings.

They all decided not to stop Gero, Vegeta even threaten to kill anyone who stops Gero before the androids attacked. Yeah blaming Goku is laughable right now..

[DBZGTKOSDH]

About Goten & Trunks, it would make sense to keep them away. Against, the got themselves killed, along with the whole planet destroyed. Against Aka, he almost blew up the Earth, even though he was strong enough to easily crush him. Against Beerus, he didn't even bother to use SS3!

But I would like to have them in the movie, along with Boo, Yamcha, Chaozu, even Yajirobe, but whatever, they wouldn't really make any big difference even if they were there.

In the original manga, he is supposed to be a creation of Bobidi. Him being around forever is a retcon that kind of goes against what we have in the manga, and if that's the justification for him to be sleeping in the movie, I think its a bad move.

I'm aware, but Toriyama revealed that Boo wasn't actually created by Babidi, and Kaioshin was misinformed.

[RandomGuy96]

Wouldn't have mattered either way. At least SOME of the Androids were already made, and Goku and the others attacking at that point likely would have resulted in their deaths. Heck, Gero's computer was already active and harvesting DNA for Cell.

For all the talk of how they should have attacked then, it probably would have lead to a mass grave regardless.

That being said, you really are indeed insisting that everyone there had to have appeared right there in the water and drowned. I doubt that's the case, especially given Shenron's power now being more in-line with how Porunga can do things. And still not Goku's fault, man.

Extremely questionable, at best. No one brings up the possibility of the 'droids being close to done. Goku acknowledges the possibility of stopping it before it begins, but then says he doesn't want to, because fighting would be more fun. If the 'droids were done, there'd be no three year wait. And even if they WERE done, it wouldn't have mattered; they could have just killed Gero before he could activate them.

Definitely Goku's fault. Again, no androids = no destroyed city = no dead people, aside from the ones Cell killed. Also, using that last wish on the islands = no drownings.

They all decided not to stop Gero, Vegeta even threaten to kill anyone who stops Gero before the androids attacked. Yeah blaming Goku is laughable right now..

Goku's vote was the only one that mattered. He could have smacked down Vegeta if Vegeta raised any objections. He did not. So yes, Goku is totally to blame for those peoples' deaths. We can blame Ten, Piccolo, and Vegeta as well, for agreeing with him, though that'd just make them reckless and irresponsible too. It wouldn't absolve Goku of any blame.

Note that Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan are not Goten and Trunks. Goten and Trunks didn't allow thousands of people to get killed for fun. But of course, they're the reckless ones, and should leave world-saving to the non-reckless guys like... Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan.

About Goten & Trunks, it would make sense to keep them away. Against, the got themselves killed, along with the whole planet destroyed. Against Aka, he almost blew up the Earth, even though he was strong enough to easily crush him. Against Beerus, he didn't even bother to use SS3!

Against Buu? Everyone got killed. Gotenks was the one that actually came the closest to killing him. He failed not through any fault of his own, but because Buu was just that formidable of an opponent. Not just in battle power, but in abilities and personality as well. Goku and Vegeta in particular should not be talking here. They both would have died in about three seconds if asked to fight Gotenks's battle, and even when they were strong enough to stop Buu, they flat-out refused to do it.

It makes sense that they wouldn't bother to use SS3, since to their knowledge Beerus IS just strong enough to beat Mr. Buu and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with hair dye. As shown in the actual manga, when they know an opponent to be powerful, they don't transform into SS3. Gotenks starts out in SS3.

[ShadowWolf87]

Wouldn't have mattered either way. At least SOME of the Androids were already made, and Goku and the others attacking at that point likely would have resulted in their deaths. Heck, Gero's computer was already active and harvesting DNA for Cell.

For all the talk of how they should have attacked then, it probably would have lead to a mass grave regardless.

That being said, you really are indeed insisting that everyone there had to have appeared right there in the water and drowned. I doubt that's the case, especially given Shenron's power now being more in-line with how Porunga can do things. And still not Goku's fault, man.

Extremely questionable, at best. No one brings up the possibility of the 'droids being close to done. Goku acknowledges the possibility of stopping it before it begins, but then says he doesn't want to, because fighting would be more fun. If the 'droids were done, there'd be no three year wait. And even if they WERE done, it wouldn't have mattered; they could have just killed Gero before he could activate them.

Definitely Goku's fault. Again, no androids = no destroyed city = no dead people, aside from the ones Cell killed. Also, using that last wish on the islands = no drownings.

They all decided not to stop Gero, Vegeta even threaten to kill anyone who stops Gero before the androids attacked. Yeah blaming Goku is laughable right now..

As for the assertion that nobody said the 'droids were close to done: that doesn't mean they weren't. Remember: Gero's computer was already collecting DNA for Cell during that three year timeskip. That means that that plan was already in motion. I doubt the computer would be designing the thing to absorb two beings who had yet to even be complete. Plus he made 16, 19, and had a shell made for his own brain.

Kinda doubting that all happened exclusively within that three year period, and that's not much of a stretch.

[jjgp1112]

I'm struggling to see how a judgment call to fight has anything to do with what actually happens during the fight. Goku's choice not to destroy Gero has nothing to with what he actually did once Dr. Gero actually arrived. It was a bad decision to leave them out in the open to begin with, but he was prepared to deal with them and take them seriously, unlike the boys.

But whatever, that has nothing to do with this thread. We can discuss your view that everything that doesn't directly to pertain to the only three characters you actually like are terrible in another thread.

[GokuRules987]

I agree now Vegeta should be the main hero in this movie, Goku is too reckless he keeps putting earth in danger by letting his villains power up. Goku should take things more seriously like back when krillin got blown up by frieza. I get it fighting is fun for goku but thats called sparing, Finding entertainment by letting villians power up so that they could exterminate earth and kill everyone is unpure and sick for Gokus behavior.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm struggling to see how a judgment call to fight has anything to do with what actually happens during the fight. Goku's choice not to destroy Gero has nothing to with what he actually did once Dr. Gero actually arrived. It was a bad decision to leave them out in the open to begin with, but he was prepared to deal with them and take them seriously, unlike the boys.

But whatever, that has nothing to do with this thread. We can discuss your view that everything that doesn't directly to pertain to the only three characters you actually like are terrible in another thread.

This is incorrect. His decision not to destroy them when he had the chance is absolutely relevant to his recklessness in battle. The boys actually take their opponents more seriously than Goku does. Goku is all too willing to let his enemies get stronger, or to let them escape, or to let them have free shots on him. Gotenks does none of the above, and in the only real fight we see him in, he uses his full abilities to pound on Buu non-stop. He only failed because Buu's hiding and resilience meant that Gotenks was too late to defeat him by five seconds.

Nope, it has to do with the excuses being brought up to explain their absence. I don't even care about Goten/Trunks/Gotenks. I just think that there's no good reason to cut them out in favor of a boring non-character like Tenshinhan, or a creepy and unfunny rape joke (for kids!) like Roshi, and don't think any of the explanations for their absence in-universe actually work.

I agree now Vegeta should be the main hero in this movie, Goku is too reckless he keeps putting earth in danger by letting his villains power up. Goku should take things more seriously like back when krillin got blown up by Freeza.

Err... is this sarcasm? It's hard to tell via pure text, sometimes.

[ShadowWolf87]

They all decided not to stop Gero, Vegeta even threaten to kill anyone who stops Gero before the androids attacked. Yeah blaming Goku is laughable right now..

Goku's vote was the only one that mattered. He could have smacked down Vegeta if Vegeta raised any objections. He did not. So yes, Goku is totally to blame for those peoples' deaths. We can blame Ten, Piccolo, and Vegeta as well, for agreeing with him, though that'd just make them reckless and irresponsible too. It wouldn't absolve Goku of any blame.

Note that Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan are not Goten and Trunks. Goten and Trunks didn't allow thousands of people to get killed for fun. But of course, they're the reckless ones, and should leave world-saving to the non-reckless guys like... Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan.

About Goten & Trunks, it would make sense to keep them away. Against, the got themselves killed, along with the whole planet destroyed. Against Aka, he almost blew up the Earth, even though he was strong enough to easily crush him. Against Beerus, he didn't even bother to use SS3!

Against Buu? Everyone got killed. Gotenks was the one that actually came the closest to killing him. He failed not through any fault of his own, but because Buu was just that formidable of an opponent. Not just in battle power, but in abilities and personality as well. Goku and Vegeta in particular should not be talking here. They both would have died in about three seconds if asked to fight Gotenks's battle, and even when they were strong enough to stop Buu, they flat-out refused to do it.

It makes sense that they wouldn't bother to use SS3, since to their knowledge Beerus just strong enough to beat Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with hair dye.

That's actually not entirely true for a variety of reasons I won't go into to avoid derailing the thread, but I will say that Gotenks is FAR from the closest to killing him. Gohan was, Vegeto was closer as well, but had planned to be absorbed in the first place.

Gotenks is still more than a little reckless, and you're talking about seeing Beerus take down Vegeta who'd surpassed Goku as SSJ3, taken down Gohan at the level he'd been at when he manhandled a version of Buu that Gotenks could only match, yet STILL not taking SSJ3.

I mean come on man, this is getting a bit ridiculous at this point. Gotenks is reckless. The boys are reckless. It's why they were kept home. Time to move on.

[NavonWise]

They all decided not to stop Gero, Vegeta even threaten to kill anyone who stops Gero before the androids attacked. Yeah blaming Goku is laughable right now..

Goku's vote was the only one that mattered. He could have smacked down Vegeta if Vegeta raised any objections. He did not. So yes, Goku is totally to blame for those peoples' deaths. We can blame Ten, Piccolo, and Vegeta as well, for agreeing with him, though that'd just make them reckless and irresponsible too. It wouldn't absolve Goku of any blame.

Note that Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan are not Goten and Trunks. Goten and Trunks didn't allow thousands of people to get killed for fun. But of course, they're the reckless ones, and should leave world-saving to the non-reckless guys like... Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan.

...wut? Goku did not force anyone to do as he says and not attack Gero, they could have easily gone with Bulma and gathered the Dragon Balls to find out Gero's location. If Vegeta wanted to go ahead and stop Gero he could have but he did the same thing Goku did, no one influenced his decision so again, blaming Goku is absurd. I mean with that logic you might as well say Cell saved the universe for killing Goku, enabling him to attain the SSJ3 form and therefore stop Buu.

[ShadowWolf87]

I agree now Vegeta should be the main hero in this movie, Goku is too reckless he keeps putting earth in danger by letting his villains power up. Goku should take things more seriously like back when krillin got blown up by Freeza. I get it fighting is fun for goku but thats called sparing, Finding entertainment by letting villians power up so that they could exterminate earth and kill everyone is unpure and sick for Gokus behavior.

...how? Literally how? Goku never let anyone power up to their maximum save Freeza when they were alone on Namek. Vegeta, on the other hand, demanded Freeza transform despite having an advantage, and even helped Cell reach his Perfect Form just to prove it would do him no good. That's not even touching on willingly submitting to Babidi...

EDIT: I may have been /sarc'd

[Zelvin]

Yeah, but they're weak! Because you see, the only thing that matters in Dragon Ball is power and that's how we determine the entirety of a character's worth to the story!

Strong or weak, Toriyama still cares about them and has been giving Roshi screen time for years despite having become irrelevant since the 22nd Budokai. Yet we see him in FnF doing some actual fighting and it's looks pretty damn good. I think he just wants to show that these guys aren't stagnant. Except for Chouzu.

[NavonWise]

I agree now Vegeta should be the main hero in this movie, Goku is too reckless he keeps putting earth in danger by letting his villains power up. Goku should take things more seriously like back when krillin got blown up by Freeza. I get it fighting is fun for goku but thats called sparing, Finding entertainment by letting villians power up so that they could exterminate earth and kill everyone is unpure and sick for Gokus behavior.

...you mean the guy helped Cell reach his perfect form? And Goku is the reckless one?

[RandomGuy96]

That's actually not entirely true for a variety of reasons I won't go into to avoid derailing the thread, but I will say that Gotenks is FAR from the closest to killing him. Gohan was, Vegeto was closer as well, but had planned to be absorbed in the first place.

Gotenks is still more than a little reckless, and you're talking about seeing Beerus take down Vegeta who'd surpassed Goku as SSJ3, taken down Gohan at the level he'd been at when he manhandled a version of Buu that Gotenks could only match, yet STILL not taking SSJ3.

I mean come on man, this is getting a bit ridiculous at this point. Gotenks is reckless. The boys are reckless. It's why they were kept home. Time to move on.

No, Vegetto never actually came close to killing him. Surely, he could have, if he tried, but he didn't. Which is just more proof of Goku and Vegeta's recklessness. Vegetto's plan was not only extremely risky, but unnecessary, since if the others were killed they could always just get wished back.

Nah, he only manhandled SS2 Gohan with hair dye, and handled SS2 Vegeta later. A last-minute touch-up to the art which seems to have been disregarded in this movie doesn't change that he wasn't meant to be Ultimate. Furthermore, in the actual manga, when he gets ready for a rematch with Buu, he goes to SS3 immediately. So, clearly, he's more cautious than you give him credit for.

Incorrect. If Gotenks is reckless, he's at least significantly less so than Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan, all of whom have screwed up far more, and all of whom are being allowed to show up. They're only getting kept out (possibly; I mean, that hasn't been 100% confirmed yet) because someone didn't feel like adding them. Or because they'd suck up an extra 30 seconds of screen time that could instead be used for ~~~Goku~~~ or a totally important character like Pilaf/Roshi.

...wut? Goku did not force anyone to do as he says and not attack Gero, they could have easily gone with Bulma and gathered the Dragon Balls to find out Gero's location. If Vegeta wanted to go ahead and stop Gero he could have but he did the same thing Goku did, no one influenced his decision so again, blaming Goku is absurd. I mean with that logic you might as well say Cell saved the universe for killing Goku, enabling him to attain the SSJ3 form and therefore stop Buu.

They couldn't, because Vegeta said he'd kill anyone who tried that, and Goku never contradicted him. Of course I'm going to blame Goku. He had the opportunity to stop all of this, and he didn't.

Goku's SS3 form had exactly nothing to do with Buu's defeat. If anything, Goku lacking SS3 would make the Buu arc end quicker, as he wouldn't refuse fusion to fight Pure Buu one on one for fun.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, but they're weak! Because you see, the only thing that matters in Dragon Ball is power and that's how we determine the entirety of a character's worth to the story!

Strong or weak, Toriyama still cares about them and has been giving Roshi screen time for years despite having become irrelevant since the 22nd Budokai. Yet we see him in FnF doing some actual fighting and it's looks pretty damn good. I think he just wants to show that these guys aren't stagnant. Except for Chouzu.

Oh, of course. I was being sarcastic.

[SSJGFrieza]

Giving Cell a Senzu Bean. Thinking it would be better for some little kids to fight Majin Buu even he could have killed him after turning into a SSJ3. Not fusing and killing Kid Buu all because of Saiyan pride.

Are we just going to ignore these stupid things Goku did?

[GokuRules987]

I agree now Vegeta should be the main hero in this movie, Goku is too reckless he keeps putting earth in danger by letting his villains power up. Goku should take things more seriously like back when krillin got blown up by Freeza. I get it fighting is fun for goku but thats called sparing, Finding entertainment by letting villians power up so that they could exterminate earth and kill everyone is unpure and sick for Gokus behavior.

...how? Literally how? Goku never let anyone power up to their maximum save Freeza when they were alone on Namek. Vegeta, on the other hand, demanded Freeza transform despite having an advantage, and even helped Cell reach his Perfect Form just to prove it would do him no good. That's not even touching on willingly submitting to Babidi...

EDIT: I may have been /sarc'd

Vegeta does it out of his pride and arrogance, he knows his mistakes and we wont probably see him repeating them again if abandoned his arrogant side already.

Frieza: hey goku you dont mind if i see that senzu bean bag of yours for a second i promise i wont do anything to it.

Goku: umm okay sure! *tosses senzu bean bag*(clueless as ever)

Frieza: HAHA!! i fooled you now I'm going to eat all of it and get all my strength back to defeat you!

Goku just doesnt think of consequences and hes very naive and clueless.

On the other hand Vegeta's BS detector would quickly ring out if he heard frieza say something like that to him.