Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Loputousu]

And Krillin cut off Frieza's tail, so Namek Krillin >> Second Form Frieza.

Nothing alike, Krillin just used a cutting technique.

Trunks absorbed the power of the Spirit Bomb as well as Goku and Vegeta's powrr and used that power to form a Spirit Blade that allowed him to push back Merged Zamasu and completely shatter his own Ki sword which is made from an extension of his power.

If it wasn't a matter of power then Trunks wouldn't have failed miserably when he attacked a weaker Merged Zamasu with his sword. Also the yellow Ki sword would have done the job too.

The Spirit Sword is a cutting technique. Swords cut things.

[The gr]

Dyspo must be pretty strong,he damaged hit

I can't wait to see no answers about the appearance of super saiyan god

[TheMikado]

Dyspo must be pretty strong,he damaged hit

I can't wait to see no answers about the appearance of super saiyan god

So who beat up Hit more just based on damage? SSB x KK x10 or Dyspo?

[perucho1990]

I remember Goku saying that he was fighting Roshi at full power, if so then that should make Roshi stronger than Gotenks or Gotenks is the weakest Z fighter in DBS?

[TheMikado]

I remember Goku saying that he was fighting Roshi at full power, if so then that should make Roshi stronger than Gotenks or Gotenks is the weakest Z fighter in DBS?

Well they actually said Roshi was the one who was unrestrained, but yes any kid watching just DBS would think Roshi was stronger than Gotenks SSJ3 based on the narrative of Super. The only reason we know this isn't the case is because we've watched the preceding series.

[precita]

Roshi is not much stronger than Radditz at best. All he's done in the tournament was take out a parrot and freeze one guy and Tien finished him off. Unless we see Roshi go against a strong opponent in the tournament, he is Radditz tier.

[Bullza]

The Spirit Sword is a cutting technique. Swords cut things.

The Spirit Sword is an extension of Trunks' power upon absorbing the Spirit Bomb.

It cut Zamasu where Trunks' Yellow Ki Sword did not because of a difference in sheer power.

I remember Goku saying that he was fighting Roshi at full power, if so then that should make Roshi stronger than Gotenks or Gotenks is the weakest Z fighter in DBS?

Well one of the writers of the show, Toshio, said on Twitter that Roshi was only as strong as he was because of the magic placed upon or something like that.

It wasn't Roshi's true power anyway.

[JazzMazz]

Dyspo must be pretty strong,he damaged hit

I can't wait to see no answers about the appearance of super saiyan god

So who beat up Hit more just based on damage? SSB x KK x10 or Dyspo?

I'd say they did relatively the same amount of damage, though Hit doesn't look like his stamina was effected as badly as it was in his fight against KK x10 Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I remember Goku saying that he was fighting Roshi at full power, if so then that should make Roshi stronger than Gotenks or Gotenks is the weakest Z fighter in DBS?

This is my biggest problem with just having one base. 18, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Roshi all surpassed Gotenks by doing just regular ass training.

It's stupid.

It also creates obvious plot holes with Gohan and Boo on the ToP arc and with Piccolo on the U6 arc.

[emperior]

I remember Goku saying that he was fighting Roshi at full power, if so then that should make Roshi stronger than Gotenks or Gotenks is the weakest Z fighter in DBS?

This is my biggest problem with just having one base. 18, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Roshi all surpassed Gotenks by doing just regular ass training.

It's stupid.

It also creates obvious plot holes with Gohan and Boo on the ToP arc and with Piccolo on the U6 arc.

If all those guys are equal to base Goku then it means they are also equal to Final Form Freeza from RoF, which I don't think is the case.
There's evidently been a retcon unless 1st form Freeza was just a little stronger than SSJ Gohan. and only got 2x stronger in his final form, which means everyone would be SSJ2 tier (like Piccolo) and Gotenks got weaker because of the kids not training so he was even weaker than Buu arc SSJ2s. This would mean that:
Base Goku, Vegeta, Gohan = FF Freezer = Piccolo = Krillin >= Tenshinan and Roshi
Maybe 18 is just as strong as Krillin though, and 17 would be the strongest untransformed character. By the way Piccolo shoud be just a little above SSJ2 tier.
Gohan would have gotten 100x stronger by training with Piccolo so his base form would be equal to his old SSJ2. Even Krillin told Gohan "Lets get 100 times stronger!"

[Bullza]

Even if Gotenks was nerfed it wouldn't make a difference. The Base Saiyans are far stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who in turn was said to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Krillin, Android 18, Tien and Roshi's are not nearly as strong as Gotenks.

Goku just holds back.

[ZombieVito]

If all those guys are equal to base Goku then it means they are also equal to Final Form Freeza from RoF, which I don't think is the case.
There's evidently been a retcon unless 1st form Freeza was just a little stronger than SSJ Gohan. and only got 2x stronger in his final form, which means everyone would be SSJ2 tier (like Piccolo) and Gotenks got weaker because of the kids not training so he was even weaker than Buu arc SSJ2s. This would mean that:
Base Goku, Vegeta, Gohan = FF Freezer = Piccolo = Krillin >= Tenshinan and Roshi
Maybe 18 is just as strong as Krillin though, and 17 would be the strongest untransformed character. By the way Piccolo shoud be just a little above SSJ2 tier.
Gohan would have gotten 100x stronger by training with Piccolo so his base form would be equal to his old SSJ2. Even Krillin told Gohan "Lets get 100 times stronger!"

Nowhere was this stated, implied or shown.

18 was flat out shown to be stronger than base Goku. Kuririn forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan and this is a stronger Goku than episode 46....

There's also the fact that Goku struggled against Basil who got murdered by Boo even after taking a drug to power up yet Boo is weaker than Gotenks....

[emperior]

If all those guys are equal to base Goku then it means they are also equal to Final Form Freeza from RoF, which I don't think is the case.
There's evidently been a retcon unless 1st form Freeza was just a little stronger than SSJ Gohan. and only got 2x stronger in his final form, which means everyone would be SSJ2 tier (like Piccolo) and Gotenks got weaker because of the kids not training so he was even weaker than Buu arc SSJ2s. This would mean that:
Base Goku, Vegeta, Gohan = FF Freezer = Piccolo = Krillin >= Tenshinan and Roshi
Maybe 18 is just as strong as Krillin though, and 17 would be the strongest untransformed character. By the way Piccolo shoud be just a little above SSJ2 tier.
Gohan would have gotten 100x stronger by training with Piccolo so his base form would be equal to his old SSJ2. Even Krillin told Gohan "Lets get 100 times stronger!"

Nowhere was this stated, implied or shown.

18 was flat out shown to be stronger than base Goku. Kuririn forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan and this is a stronger Goku than episode 46....

There's also the fact that Goku struggled against Basil who got murdered by Boo even after taking a drug to power up yet Boo is weaker than Gotenks....

None of this makes sense without a retcon happening after RoF, which means the anime staff made a mistake by having base Goku and Vegeta stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in the filler. It also means either Final Form Freezer has been retconned or he is now way above SSJ3 Goku level.
Hopefully they will explain something with SSG because it's honestly hilarious that Goku and Vegeta got even weaker after training for 3 years in the ROSAT. They should just mention that they were able to power-up their godly base to the next level at which point they achieved Super Saiyan God, which they deemed as useless and so they concentrated on their Blue transformation.

It also means that Cabba wasn't anywhere near as strong as the god-powered Goku and Vegeta, which makes sense considering Cabba was never trained by an Angel.

[ZombieVito]

None of this makes sense without a retcon happening after RoF, which means the anime staff made a mistake by having base Goku and Vegeta stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in the filler. It also means either Final Form Freezer has been retconned or he is now way above SSJ3 Goku level.
Hopefully they will explain something with SSG because it's honestly hilarious that Goku and Vegeta got even weaker after training for 3 years in the ROSAT. They should just mention that they were able to power-up their godly base to the next level at which point they achieved Super Saiyan God, which they deemed as useless and so they concentrated on their Blue transformation.

It also means that Cabba wasn't anywhere near as strong as the god-powered Goku and Vegeta, which makes sense considering Cabba was never trained by an Angel.

Super has no filler.

The only way this makes sense is exactly that. Explain that they couldn't access all the power of SSG with their SbG states but with training Goku overcame this and regained SSG this arc.

[LowRyder2005]

Even if Gotenks was nerfed it wouldn't make a difference. The Base Saiyans are far stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who in turn was said to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

That can't be the case: if the base Saiyans have always been stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Goku would've defeated/singled out Basil with a finger-poke without transforming, and Vegeta would've probably tanked Lavenda's punches. Unless you want to theorize Buu became much stronger off-screen.
I'd there's no compulsive reason to think the statement needs to refer to anyone other than the base Vegeta he remembered, at minimum. That is if - like I think - you're basing this off Goku's casual remark about how he hardly recognizes base Vegeta on Whis' planet.

But anyway, I think you shouldn't really go promoting the bolded as a fact. When you reflect about it, the implication at the time was pretty much that Vegeta had reached Super Saiyan God's realm of power. The writers' innuendo Vegeta could've been stronger than the Goku who had "reached and surpassed the power of the gods" was clear, in that regard. However, we know it simply can't mesh with pretty much anything starting from the Goku Black arc. The old multipliers apply to Goku and you'd have Gohan dozens of times stronger than a Super Saiyan God -- which appears as something any of Super's authors arguably never intended. And again, see above the base Goku vs. Trio de Danger contradiction, or the "everyone becomes hundreds of times stronger by doing nothing" narrative fiasco, or the exact same term being used only after Goku turns Blue by the spectators of the exhibition matches.

It's interesting to notice that normal Freeza has also been shown as someone who's curbstomping everyone in his path, including opponents stronger than base Caulifla; and yet, going strictly but what is shown and stated, we might need to accept he's somehow weaker than base Goku or even #18 unless we adhered to the notion that his power level had magically grown dozens or hundreds of times while he couldn't move in his cocoon.

P.S. I feel like Emperior made some very good points. It's more or less my exact same sentiment about everything stated in regards to most of the situation.

[emperior]

Even if Gotenks was nerfed it wouldn't make a difference. The Base Saiyans are far stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who in turn was said to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

That can't be the case: if the base Saiyans have always been stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Goku would've defeated/singled out Basil with a finger-poke without transforming, and Vegeta would've probably tanked Lavenda's punches. Unless you want to theorize Buu became much stronger off-screen.
I'd there's no compulsive reason to think the statement needs to refer to anyone other than the base Vegeta he remembered, at minimum. That is if - like I think - you're basing this off Goku's casual remark about how he hardly recognizes base Vegeta on Whis' planet.

But anyway, I think you shouldn't really go promoting the bolded as a fact. When you reflect about it, the implication at the time was pretty much that Vegeta had reached Super Saiyan God's realm of power. The writers' innuendo Vegeta could've been stronger than the Goku who had "reached and surpassed the power of the gods" was clear, in that regard. However, we know it simply can't mesh with pretty much anything starting from the Goku Black arc. The old multipliers apply to Goku and you'd have Gohan dozens of times stronger than a Super Saiyan God -- which appears as something any of Super's authors arguably never intended. And again, see above the base Goku vs. Trio de Danger contradiction, or the "everyone becomes hundreds of times stronger by doing nothing" narrative fiasco, or the exact same term being used only after Goku turns Blue by the spectators of the exhibition matches.

It's interesting to notice that normal Freeza has also been shown as someone who's curbstomping everyone in his path, including opponents stronger than base Caulifla; and yet, going strictly but what is shown and stated, we might need to accept he's somehow weaker than base Goku or even #18 unless we adhered to the notion that his power level had magically grown dozens or hundreds of times while he couldn't move in his cocoon.

P.S. I feel like Emperior made some very good points. It's more or less my exact same sentiment about everything stated in regards to most of the situation.

You make some very good points too. The show has also remarked a few times that Gohan was at his Buu arc level of power before training again with Piccolo in preparation for the ToP. The same Gohan didn't perform quite differently from Goku in his 1v1 fight against Lavenda. In fact it was clear Gohan was on par if not even a little stronger than Lavenda in his base form and only got the upper-hand thanks to Super Saiyan. Which is exactly what happens later in the ToP when Goku fights against the Trio de Dangers. If Goku was really that powerful, he would have handled the Trio like he handled the Ginyu Force. It seems like Goku was able to fend them off without transforming because of his great fighting senses and experience. And, as you mentioned, it's clear Majin Buu is way above the wolves and he easily beat a drugged Basil. Majin Buu never got stronger and Freeza also didn't get stronger in his final form. He only managed to improve his Golden Form and that was mostly because he got rid of the stamina draining issues.

[TheMikado]

All I'd like is for the production staff to admit they messed up. That's all. In universe we know none of this makes sense. Out of universe we know they reversed course.

They haven't admitted it in either universe and treat us like 5 year old who wouldn't know any better when even 5 year olds are scratching their heads.

Like I said they can say anything they want anyway they want. I just want somebody to say something.

This was also compounded by the interview they gave where the interviewer seemed to directly address the power scale issues and the producer of Super half acknowledged it but then glossed over and gave us BS about Roshi being really strong. In really not into their attitude towards the audience.

[sintzu]

They haven't admitted it in either universe and treat us like 5 year old who wouldn't know any better when even 5 year olds are scratching their heads.

They probably think if they don't care then neither will the viewers. That or they simply don't know what they're doing.

[wolflonnie]

It would be funny.
Usually it happens and it has been sorta proven that base forms can surpass other weaker SSJs. Now imagine if SSJ3 Gotenks is WEAKER than a vanilla SSJ2! Which is kinda starting to be the case, since both Trunks and Goten seem to be much weaker these days.

[ekrolo2]

I would so love it if they made a concrete statement on Base Goku being inferior to Namek Freeza at full power, it would tear shit asunder in spectacular fashion.