Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd prefer the explanation that, because these are real martial arts fights and not slug-fests to the death, the differences in power become less important and come down more to technique, skill, and strategy, at least for the tiers of fighters below things like the realm of gods.

The less you think of power as "finger-flicking ability that makes you untouchable", the more you can appreciate how Dragon Ball Super approaches its fights. Obviously, there ARE still examples of power levels being important, like the fights to the death between god-tier characters and whatnot, but the untouchability previously demonstrated in past material between the lower power tiers has been downplayed.

So, where it might have gone something like "Saiyan Saga can't touch Namek Saga which can't touch Cell Saga which can't touch Buu Saga", it's now more along the lines of "DBZ can't touch god-tier but is malleable within itself".

[ekrolo2]

Super doesn't follow team work or martial arts rules, it follows Dragon Ball Z movie rules where spectacle & holding back are big trademarks.

Just look at something like Super Android 13: The Saiyan's spend a massive amount of time in Base even though they are getting their shit kicked and only transform for the maximum "WOW" effect for the audience. This is a recurring thing the movies do once transformations become a staple and Super follows this a lot.

I think I'd believe the "power levels don't matter" as much rationale if Super wasn't pick and choosey with it where sometimes it looks like team work legitimately does matter but then Z rules kick in and the guy with the bigger power rofl stomps the oppositon. Goku & Vegeta vs U9 is a good example where they have a whole team gang up on them with a strategy in mind and then Goku & Vegeta just lol and put their heads in the oppositions asses Hancock style with Super Saiyan as it would have happened in Z.

[The gr]

How strong is Dyspo,he did not look impressive in his debut, he's only giving hit a run for his money because of his speed

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong is Dyspo,he did not look impressive in his debut, he's only giving hit a run for his money because of his speed

Exactly.

The techniques and special abilities of characters are given extreme importance and utility in the Tournament of Power because they often are independent of the power levels that the fandom grew complacent with. And in a tournament setting where most tiers of power are deemphasized to specifically showcase fighting ability and skill, they become even more potent.

It's like Gohan with the upcoming episode. His Ultimate power, regardless of where you think it falls in terms of power scaling, is extremely strong, yet the Universe 10 fighters will supposedly have the perfect counters to such power. More than likely, it'll be esoteric and non-power oriented abilities that will give Gohan a hard time, just like Dyspo will do to Hit and Goku in the spoilers.

[Loputousu]

The Spirit Sword is a cutting technique. Swords cut things.

The Spirit Sword is an extension of Trunks' power upon absorbing the Spirit Bomb.

It cut Zamasu where Trunks' Yellow Ki Sword did not because of a difference in sheer power.

Your counterargument literally makes no sense. It doesn't change the fact that the ki sword was shaped in the form of a sharp object, so it was sharp and sharp objects can cut through things of much higher power levels (Krillin vs. Frieza).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Spirit Sword is a cutting technique. Swords cut things.

The Spirit Sword is an extension of Trunks' power upon absorbing the Spirit Bomb.

It cut Zamasu where Trunks' Yellow Ki Sword did not because of a difference in sheer power.

Your counterargument literally makes no sense. It doesn't change the fact that the ki sword was shaped in the form of a sharp object, so it was sharp and sharp objects can cut through things of much higher power levels (Krillin vs. Frieza).

To add to this, the Genkidama hits evil entities much harder than it does good entities.

Shape that into a blade, use it against the most evil motherf**ker in the series thus far, and factor in that his body is growing more and more unstable by the minute, and you got a recipe for one dead half-immortal body.

Soul excluded, of course

[Bullza]

But anyway, I think you shouldn't really go promoting the bolded as a fact.

But unless you were to assume that they did change things from before then it is a fact.

Goku saw Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and yet when he saw Base Vegeta later on he said he was much stronger than before to the point he couldn't recognize him.

Vegeta had now reached a level where he could sense God Ki which he couldn't before.

Vegeta had reached a level where he could now spar with Whis whereas before he couldn't.

Vegeta was able to take "hits" from Beerus' and was blasted point blank by something they described as being his unrestrained Ki whereas before Beerus took him out with a poke to the noggin when he was suppressing himself down to "10%".

Goku was able to fight against Frieza in his Final Form whereas in his First Form he was stronger than all the others fighting together. Which includes Super Saiyan Gohan who in Base form was stronger than Piccolo.

Goku fought Beerus again who started to get into and enjoy the fight, was punching him clean in the face and Goku was still conscious whereas again a single flick bowled Super Saiyan 3 Goku over and a poke put Vegeta unconscious.

So they definitely about that level at the very least until the end of the Universe 6 saga. If they've changed things since is anyone's guess. Why he didn't take Basil out instantly? I don't know. He didn't take Krillin out instantly either.

Your counterargument literally makes no sense. It doesn't change the fact that the ki sword was shaped in the form of a sharp object, so it was sharp and sharp objects can cut through things of much higher power levels (Krillin vs. Frieza).

And Trunks' Yellow Ki Sword was also a sharp object that can cut things. Yet that did not shatter Merged Zamasu's Ki Sword.

Trunks' Spirit Sword shattered it instantly because of a difference in power.

The point being was that it was all about power. If it was about being a sharp object then Trunks would have cleaved him in two with his regular sword when he first attacked him.

[Marlowe89]

It's interesting to notice that normal Freeza has also been shown as someone who's curbstomping everyone in his path, including opponents stronger than base Caulifla; and yet, going strictly but what is shown and stated, we might need to accept he's somehow weaker than base Goku or even #18 unless we adhered to the notion that his power level had magically grown dozens or hundreds of times while he couldn't move in his cocoon.

Final Form Frieza is somewhat of a mystery. He could have been retconned down like Goku to keep him on par with his base form, or he could still plausibly have a power level closer to Super Saiyan God like in RoF. There's no way of telling at the moment, although if his portrayal so far in the tournament is of any indication it could be very well be the latter.

It does make me wonder if there ever will be an in-universe acknowledgment that Goku became weaker or somehow "lost" his God power in base over time.

[Loputousu]

And Trunks' Yellow Ki Sword was also a sharp object that can cut things. Yet that did not shatter Merged Zamasu's Ki Sword.

Trunks' Spirit Sword shattered it instantly because of a difference in power.

Yes, it powered up to a point where it could shatter it. So what?

The point being was that it was all about power. If it was about being a sharp object then Trunks would have cleaved him in two with his regular sword when he first attacked him.

Trunks slashed him very successfully, but didn't attempt to actually cut him in half. If anything Trunks being able to slash him with the yellow ki sword just proves my argument that the ki sword was sharp as hell and was able to cut Zamasu despite being Zamasu being much more powerful.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's interesting to notice that normal Freeza has also been shown as someone who's curbstomping everyone in his path, including opponents stronger than base Caulifla; and yet, going strictly but what is shown and stated, we might need to accept he's somehow weaker than base Goku or even #18 unless we adhered to the notion that his power level had magically grown dozens or hundreds of times while he couldn't move in his cocoon.

Final Form Frieza is somewhat of a mystery. He could have been retconned down like Goku to keep him on par with his base form, or he could still plausibly have a power level closer to Super Saiyan God like in RoF. There's no way of telling at the moment, although if his portrayal so far in the tournament is of any indication it could be very well be the latter.

It does make me wonder if there ever will be an in-universe acknowledgment that Goku became weaker or somehow "lost" his God power in base over time.

I honestly doubt that.

One thing that Toei has been consistent about is trying to stick with their early decisions as much as possible for later story arcs, even if it proved problematic to the layman viewer. For example, with Freeza, him and Goku have been portrayed as equals in pretty much every way in terms of power, their god-tier transformations especially as of recent. If anything, the writers might use this opportunity to tell the audience that, yeah, Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza are still REALLY FREAKING STRONG by the old standards.

I just don't see the writers abandoning the notion of Freeza being extremely powerful and Goku and Vegeta being his power equals. RoF may have been one of the most problematic arcs in several ways for the series, but it has served as the catalyst for many great things: Gohan and Piccolo making a comeback as warriors, Goku and Vegeta jumping off into new realms of power, and Freeza having this really interesting relationship with Goku now.

[LowRyder2005]

But anyway, I think you shouldn't really go promoting the bolded as a fact.

But unless you were to assume that they did change things from before then it is a fact.

Goku saw Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and yet when he saw Base Vegeta later on he said he was much stronger than before to the point he couldn't recognize him.

Vegeta had now reached a level where he could sense God Ki which he couldn't before.

Vegeta had reached a level where he could now spar with Whis whereas before he couldn't.

Vegeta was able to take "hits" from Beerus' and was blasted point blank by something they described as being his unrestrained Ki whereas before Beerus took him out with a poke to the noggin when he was suppressing himself down to "10%".

Goku was able to fight against Frieza in his Final Form whereas in his First Form he was stronger than all the others fighting together. Which includes Super Saiyan Gohan who in Base form was stronger than Piccolo.

Goku fought Beerus again who started to get into and enjoy the fight, was punching him clean in the face and Goku was still conscious whereas again a single flick bowled Super Saiyan 3 Goku over and a poke put Vegeta unconscious.

So they definitely about that level at the very least until the end of the Universe 6 saga. If they've changed things since is anyone's guess. Why he didn't take Basil out instantly? I don't know. He didn't take Krillin out instantly either.

But why? This is like saying that whenever the character saw someone else in base and said something akin "wow, you're definitely stronger than before" they needed to refer to their base form surpassing their highest form from before. Not even counting that Vegeta's strength was also treated as something that he had tapped in for a very brief moment and there's also no reason to think Goku believed he was his regular power either.

Then again, I'll lay off analyzing this point further and venturing in more audacious fan-theories when justifying "how could Vegeta sense god ki without having it"; I guess both endeavors are, in fact, irrelevant. The important thing is that we can agree the undertone was having Vegeta probably around as strong as a Super Saiyan God/ belonging to the "realm of the gods" (can sense god ki, he's "unrecognizable", he may have surpassed the Goku with "the strength of a Super Saiyan God"). The thing obviously can't be by now, however, since the contradictions would keep piling up otherwise:

Assuming "Super Saiyan Goku, even suppressed is always < Base Goku" and adding these conditions:

1. Post-Piccolo "training from scratch" (most likely not even a completed session, by the way) base Gohan doesn't possess the same "brimming power" of "end of the Cell Games" Gohan and by ep. 95 he's still weaker than Ultimate Gohan from Z, and yet as a Super Saiyan, he's he's stronger than base Goku -- whom as a Super Saiyan should be some tens of times stronger than that very Gohan.
2. Mr. Buu can beat a drastically powered-up opponent, without even too much of an issue, that base Goku can't beat.
3. Piccolo needs more than "many tens of times stronger" than a Super Saiyan God. He reached this level by training alone in some months.
4. Android 18, who reportedly did some light training with Krillin, apparently can lift abnormally more than base Goku.

Leaving aside Roshi and Krillin, since I think they're kind of more justifiable - while still making barely any sense, eh - in my eyes for one reason or the other.

Practically speaking, bear in mind that even if you argue that base Goku's strength is around someone like Buuhan or Vegito (and that this character still made monstruous gains, which merely switch from "astronomically absurd" to "slightly-less astronomically absurd than before": i.e. instead of having Piccolo three millions of times stronger than his Buu arc self, you have him three hundreds or thousands of times stronger by doing the regular training he probably practiced routinely for some extra months), the substance doesn't change.
"Substance" in the sense a retcon still needs to take place, because both Goku and Vegeta were also being described by Whis as possessing a strength that belonged to the "entry level" of the realm of the gods, a.k.a. people who could fight with the Beerus seen in BOG a.k.a. people who are far above than the likes of Buuhan and Super Vegito. So they still curbed down their strength, and when you add the other characters to the mix, it really seems like they wanted to reflect the framework of Z with some minor changes and minor improvements for this or that character more than anything else. At least, that's what the majority of the evidence for the post-Copy Water arc points to -- evidence that already contradicts most of what came before, regardless.
This is trying to stay grounded, in my opinion, in what the producers may be abiding to.

It's not like some users here didn't mention theories that addressed at least part of this kinda stuff, even (I think of Perhaps's contentions) -- but at this point I believe we'd start to delve in such a complicated landscape in which base/SS/SS2/SS3 can reach any strength that I'm not sure if any power-related staple could be reached. And I'm still not sure (I shall gladly be corrected me in that case) if even he found a way to make sense of, say, #18 lifting more than base Goku, whether he thinks #18 leapfrogged anyone in the Buu saga or something else.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

How strong is Dyspo,he did not look impressive in his debut, he's only giving hit a run for his money because of his speed

How strong is Hit without Tokitobashi and his killing techniques?

[Bullza]

But why? This is like saying that whenever the character saw someone else in base and said something akin "wow, you're definitely stronger than before" they needed to refer to their base form surpassing their highest form from before.

Has there been something like that before? What else could they be referring to? He says when he sees him

"Wow, Vegeta. I can't believe how strong you've gotten. You might even be stronger than me. Your energy is totally different from back on Earth. For a second there. I didn't recognise you."

That would just imply he's just in general stronger than before as opposed to his Base form being stronger than his previous Base form.

The important thing is that we can agree the undertone was having Vegeta probably around as strong as a Super Saiyan God/ belonging to the "realm of the gods" (can sense god ki, he's "unrecognizable", he may have surpassed the Goku with "the strength of a Super Saiyan God").

I don't think he was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point either. He could sense God Ki but there was nothing said about how he'd become a God himself. All he did was chores after all.

Whis made this comment.

"If that castle were the power level of a god, then those two are only this much (the small tree)."

So naturally neither of them had the power level of a God.

It was only later when Vegeta was thrown in the staff did he first experience what God Ki was for himself. It was only after training there did they both learn how to become Super Saiyan God's on their own. So they are only as strong as a God as either a Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue.

Leaving aside Roshi and Krillin, since I think they're kind of more justifiable - while still making barely any sense, eh - in my eyes for one reason or the other.

Well those are things that are kind of odd for now. Which is why people do think there's been a retcon. I don't think it was a matter of Goku not being able to beat Basil though. He was fighting three at a time and he couldn't sense their Ki. He didn't have the luxury of fighting Basil one on one.

Sometimes he doesn't seem as strong as he should be, he struggled to lift that Pride Trooper that Android 18 did but then he survived the God of Destruction's energy.

[Saturnine]

Super doesn't follow team work or martial arts rules, it follows Dragon Ball Z movie rules where spectacle & holding back are big trademarks.

Just look at something like Super Android 13: The Saiyan's spend a massive amount of time in Base even though they are getting their shit kicked and only transform for the maximum "WOW" effect for the audience. This is a recurring thing the movies do once transformations become a staple and Super follows this a lot.

I think I'd believe the "power levels don't matter" as much rationale if Super wasn't pick and choosey with it where sometimes it looks like team work legitimately does matter but then Z rules kick in and the guy with the bigger power rofl stomps the oppositon. Goku & Vegeta vs U9 is a good example where they have a whole team gang up on them with a strategy in mind and then Goku & Vegeta just lol and put their heads in the oppositions asses Hancock style with Super Saiyan as it would have happened in Z.

Now that you mention these "movie rules", it would be nice to add another bad trope Toei's been guilty of - way too prolonged domination scenes. In the manga, if someone's stronger than you by a margin wider than say, 1,5x, it never even comes to beating you down one, three, five times. Toei on the other hand loved doing that both in its movies and in GT, not realizing or caring that it doesn't help the perception of how much stronger the antagonist is, in fact it made him feel that much weaker because he was incapable of finishing the job. For example based on how long Broly was beating up on Goku and Goku still being able to stand up straight after all that, I'd never say Broly was more than say, 1,3x stronger than Goku was. And I do realize Toei had most likely intended a way larger gap, but they failed to portray it according to the universe's rules. That same sin was of course gleefully repeated in GT (Baby vs Goku pre SSj4, anyone?)

[LowRyder2005]

Has there been something like that before? What else could they be referring to? He says when he sees him

"Wow, Vegeta. I can't believe how strong you've gotten. You might even be stronger than me. Your energy is totally different from back on Earth. For a second there. I didn't recognise you."

That would just imply he's just in general stronger than before as opposed to his Base form being stronger than his previous Base form.

It'd still be jumping to conclusions. If Goku saw base Vegeta after the latter trained in the ROSAT during - say - the Cell Game ark, I'm pretty sure he'd give the usual "you're stronger than before" speech. I think it's, like, totally obvious the more natural, implied meaning would not be that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan Vegeta, just that at equal forms the person is stronger than before.

I think the problem is that you're taking "on Earth" as "on Earth when you fought Beerus"; it could simply mean "the everyday Vegeta", which I also think jibes somewhat more contextually with Goku's indirect assertion that Vegeta doesn't look "familiar" anymore. What does clarify that base Vegeta holds some power equalish to Goku's is, if anything, Whis' statement -- not Goku's assertion.

After further reflection I'm lead to think that the most organic conclusion, if I was really hard-pressed to make this work in-universe, is to treat everything that happens on Beerus' planet as propedeutic as to building Vegeta's "second base", somewhat close to SS God, which Goku's keen senses detect. Something similar to this, probably:

Goku: 1,15
SS3: 460
SBG: 3,000
---------------------- // Locked out forms (?) *
SSG (BOG): 3,500
SSG (current arc): 5,000

Vegeta: 1,8
SBG: 3,000 or around Goku
SBG (complete training; post God ki [?]): 3,300

*waiting for confirmation

More or less, it's one of the ways I can think of to wrap everything quite nicely. Not like it wouldn't take half an episode of expository dump(s), but it doesn't blatantly disregard the source material, and doesn't technically fail like purely streamlined approaches would do with contradicting the show.

I don't think he was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God at that point either. He could sense God Ki but there was nothing said about how he'd become a God himself.

Whis does say they both entered some basic level of the "God realm" since they can finally sense God ki, though, which still means they should be above, well, basically everyone else who's too weak to sense it -- unless there's some other criteria at work, clearly. Combined with Goku's statement about Vegeta being "maybe equal or stronger", it seems like the intention was to make them stronger than everyone and at a similar level.

Question is: would word of God reference someone like Super Vegito or Buuhan as capable of sensing Beerus? I think it's fairly improbable, as of now. In short, whether they are not as strong as Super Saiyan God(s) they shouldn't be some unspecified realm of power below that.

[Bullza]

I think the problem is that you're taking "on Earth" as "on Earth when you fought Beerus"

It's that on top of everything else. We did see his equivalent just stand there and take everything Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could dish out with moving.

And as I said a very heavily suppressed Beerus flicked Super Saiyan 3 Goku and he went bowling across the planet. A slightly less heavily suppressed Beerus poked Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and he was out cold.

After this training Goku fought Beerus in costume and he was getting punched clean in the face and that didn't stop him. That was getting so serious that Whis had to stop it.

Whis does say they both entered some basic level of the "God realm" since they can finally sense God ki

Does he? I'm sure Who's said something about how they had to improve their power in their normal state without using Super Saiyan otherwise they'd wouldn't be able to see the realm that lies beyond, as in the power of Gods.

Question is: would word of God reference someone like Super Vegito or Buuhan as capable of sensing Beerus?

Who could say. Frieza in his Final Form didn't seem like he could sense it but then Golden Frieza could.

Is Frieza in his Final Form stronger than those two? I dunno, he could be.

[LowRyder2005]

It's that on top of everything else. We did see his equivalent just stand there and take everything Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could dish out with moving.

And as I said a very heavily suppressed Beerus flicked Super Saiyan 3 Goku and he went bowling across the planet. A slightly less heavily suppressed Beerus poked Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and he was out cold.

After this training Goku fought Beerus in costume and he was getting punched clean in the face and that didn't stop him. That was getting so serious that Whis had to stop it.

Goku vs. Beerus should probably more reflective of the "super second/retconned base" I'm thinking about, since I'm still inclined to adhere to that... in-universe. Out of universe, all that instances were supposed to reflect BOG's stuff. Still, what I really wanted to stress in the previous post is that the writing will not flow in what most will perceive as a "natural" fashion no matter what, basically.

Does he? I'm sure Who's said something about how they had to improve their power in their normal state without using Super Saiyan otherwise they'd wouldn't be able to see the realm that lies beyond, as in the power of Gods.

I'd need to rewatch the scene, but I'm not really feeling like it. I am pretty sure he should mention "these two have just reached the level of those who can sense the Gods", though. I'd leave this to some other folk in the thread.

[ChiefWamsutta]

This is my theory on how Super Saiyan God is returning, along with Goku's limit breaker form. I believe this explains the presence of Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God, and the newly-hinted orange form from the Japanese chocolate box.

[emperior]

This is my theory on how Super Saiyan God is returning, along with Goku's limit breaker form. I believe this explains the presence of Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God, and the newly-hinted orange form from the Japanese chocolate box.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That's exactly what I think will happen. I theorized a while ago that Blue is stronger than SSG because 50x of the god powered base surpasses the boost SSG gives. But if Goku can transform while he is a SSG he would get 50x stronger than SSG, which should be enough to be on par with Beerus.

[JazzMazz]

This is my theory on how Super Saiyan God is returning, along with Goku's limit breaker form. I believe this explains the presence of Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God, and the newly-hinted orange form from the Japanese chocolate box.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That's exactly what I think will happen. I theorized a while ago that Blue is stronger than SSG because 50x of the god powered base surpasses the boost SSG gives. But if Goku can transform while he is a SSG he would get 50x stronger than SSG, which should be enough to be on par with Beerus.

As much as I like the theories that people have come up with, ultimately they are completely pointless and trivial head-canon. Since the show seems to be breaking new ground, I think we should just wait(and by that I mean hope) for an exaplanation that makes sense of how Goku's power works. Honestly, I'm amazed the writers of Super managed to stuff up the power-scaling in series as simple as Dragonball, though I do guess it goes to show the amount of communication that happens between writers.