Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

There is no in-universe explanation for the writers of the Potaufeu arc for going with SBG again. Perhaps they didn't get the memo, perhaps they were not under supervision. The bigger scheme quite clearly appears to be the abandonment of SBG. The reintroduction of SSj God proper only seals this.

When you combine most of Goku's recent showings with confirmed attempts of the anime's writing team to adhere to Toriyama's personal scale as well as the fact that the Potaufeu arc apparently didn't originate from one of Toriyama's drafts in itself, I feel like this is really the only likely explanation. For me, it's all about authorial intent. Everything else takes a backseat and any in-universe or out-of-universe postulation on my end is almost always going to be framed with that perspective in mind.

To borrow a page from PerhapsTheOtherOne's book, I'm primarily a Doylist at heart -- a Watsonian much less so. I don't particularly care about how fans attempt to reconcile inconsistencies in the narrative using the fanon idea that everything must be perfectly internally consistent, my opinions are strictly concerned with the intention of the authors who write the story as well as any potential official explanations for whatever might occur. If there's an inconsistency that springs up at any point in the overarching continuity of Super's anime then all it amounts to is... well, an inconsistency; it's merely an outlier. For others who consider themselves Doylists, of course we might disagree on what exactly those outliers are supposed to be and what exactly the authors themselves currently have in mind. Sometimes we can change our own intepretations as well.

For example, I previously thought (not with 100% confidence, mind you) the two base theory was true, but only because I was tentatively willing to believe the writers may have genuinely intended it. Now I'm fairly convinced that they never intended it at all: Goku has only one base, it's not a "godly" one, and everything else is a Super Saiyan form of some kind. The hierarchy for transformations really is as simple as Base -> SS -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SSG -> SSB. That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

[LowRyder2005]

Honestly, the "Doylist"/"Watsonian" dichotomy is such a lovable and handy expression (and much less of a mouthful than "out-of-universe rationale/ in-universe rationale"), that the only reason I'm yet not extensively using just yet it's because I'd feel like I'd need to be crediting Perhaps -- who first brought it to everyone's attention in this very thread.

[spoiler](With that being said, from now on I'm definitely gonna use it without additional credits).[/spoiler]

[Hugo Boss]

I'd be curious to hear the others'!

Considering there are 80 fighters at total and from what I've read most of the people here think Cell Arc characters can beat most of them, I would say SS3 level is too high to be considered "average". God level people are only about 10% of the cake. As baseless as it sounds, I think a Super Saiyan is above average, because even as far as the tournament is (more than half were eliminated) they are still encountering foes they can deal without transformations.

[LowRyder2005]

I'd be curious to hear the others'!

Considering there are 80 fighters at total and from what I've read most of the people here think Cell Arc characters can beat most of them, I would say SS3 level is too high to be considered "average". God level people are only about 10% of the cake. As baseless as it sounds, I think a Super Saiyan is above average, because even as far as the tournament is (more than half were eliminated) they are still encountering foes they can deal without transformations.

Well, bear in mind that my average (highest/80 + lowest/80) is that high just because of my estimation of Jiren's power. Like I said, it's pretty much meaningless at this point, since we don't really know anything about Jiren if not for the fact that he's stronger than Toppo.
If we consider average in a more colloquial way (which'd be instead be the "median") as in those guys who are at the exact halfway point between the strongest and the weakest, my "average" is just that (around Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, I guess), so... essentially it's the same as yours, as a fully powered Super Saiyan from the Cell Game would be stronger than that.

[Bullza]

It's kinda hard to say what the average would be.

We've seen even Krillin, Tien and Roshi take people out. If Android 18 is as strong as she always was or at least comparable to it then she has shown to be above a few fighters like Shosa, Cocotte and Tuppa. So a whole bunch of them could be Namek/Android saga level.

Basil was probably Cell Games Super Saiyan level perhaps and he was above the norm from the looks of it.

Up to yet there's not been many characters who have been above Base Saiyan level but the ones who are being eliminated are the weaker ones so far.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's kinda hard to say what the average would be.

We've seen even Krillin, Tien and Roshi take people out. If Android 18 is as strong as she always was or at least comparable to it then she has shown to be above a few fighters like Shosa, Cocotte and Tuppa. So a whole bunch of them could be Namek/Android saga level.

Basil was probably Cell Games Super Saiyan level perhaps and he was above the norm from the looks of it.

Up to yet there's not been many characters who have been above Base Saiyan level but the ones who are being eliminated are the weaker ones so far.

We also have to remember that the lines are blurred by the Doylist production/narrative standpoint and the way the rules have been bent.

Most of the time, fighters exchange or take blows regardless of how strong or weak they are, with the effectiveness of these skirmishes most often determined by how well fighting styles can be read and how effective these skills and techniques are in combat.

For example, Krillin used his Kienzien to disable that green bird man's wings, allowing Roshi to use a Kamehameha to blast him out of the arena area. There's no need to bring in power levels because they weren't what was being used in that instance, it was the combination of teamwork and effective usage of techniques.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

I've found it less and less difficult to reconcile Copy Vegeta the more we've seen power levels go to ludicrous places in short spans of time.

If that was a God-level Vegeta so easily stomping SSJ3 Gotenks like that, then it still means SSJ3 Gotenks is freakishly weak compared to the characters who you'd never in a thousand years expect to be anywhere near SSJ3 Gotenks, but can still at least land a blow on a God.

If SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't touch Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta, then based on what we've seen he wouldn't be able to touch Android 17 or several other non-Gods on the cast. This is a power-multiplying fusion of two Super Saiyans, with a 400x multiplier on top of that. If Gotenks is this weak + befitting of gag character mechanics then is there any limit for how weak he may have actually been? It could be an untrained Gohan situation combined with SSJ3 doing to Gotenks what Super Saiyan Blue did to Vegeta in the manga - power-crippling stamina issues via an unmastered/rusty form without the user even being aware of it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've found it less and less difficult to reconcile Copy Vegeta the more we've seen power levels go to ludicrous places in short spans of time.

If that was a God-level Vegeta so easily stomping SSJ3 Gotenks like that, then it still means SSJ3 Gotenks is freakishly weak compared to the characters who you'd never in a thousand years expect to be anywhere near SSJ3 Gotenks, but can still at least land a blow on a God.

If SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't touch Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta, then based on what we've seen he wouldn't be able to touch Android 17 or several other non-Gods on the cast. This is a power-multiplying fusion of two Super Saiyans, with a 400x multiplier on top of that. If Gotenks is this weak + befitting of gag character mechanics then is there any limit for how weak he may have actually been? It could be an untrained Gohan situation combined with SSJ3 doing to Gotenks what Super Saiyan Blue did to Vegeta in the manga - power-crippling stamina issues via an unmastered/rusty form without the user even being aware of it.

That depends a lot on where SS3 Gotenks fell in the first place.

Personally, I've always had him pegged as around 4-13 times stronger than SS3 Goku way back when. Basically, ranging from his SS2 power being equal to SS3 Goku back then to his SS power being a bit stronger than SS3 Goku back then. If one wants to stretch things, we could go with the former interpretation.

[lord turbo]

You missed the point like always and distorted my argument exactly like you said I was supposedly doing. You can't prove the exact amount trunks means when he says "a little" so your argument is moot. Doesn't change the fact that super shows Gohan to be over 100x stronger than Gotenks since base Gohan is equal to base Goku whom is massively stronger than gotenks and ssj2 Gohan is still weaker than boo arc ultimate Gohan. So no you can't keep bringing up what trunks said to disprove that.

Whether you think that's the intention is another story, a point that was never important to begin with nonetheless, but that's how it works out numerically.

When did I say anything about boo arc gohans base and ssj forms? Never. In super his base and ssj forms are much stronger than in the boo arc but still below his original power.

My claim of ultimate Gohan being over 100x stronger than Gotenks is based on him being shown to be that much stronger. The idea that Gotenks got weaker isn't even implied within the show itself. It's just something you brought up to make your version of the story fit. My argument doesn't "assume" that Gotenks didn't get weaker. Such a notion isn't even remotely hinted at or supported. Would be like if I claimed that raditz was beating up freeza in hell off screen and I challenged you to prove me wrong.

You destroyed your own argument. Just like beerus' statement doesn't change the fact that ssj is an established 50x boost, what you think trunks quantifies as "a little" means nothing in front of the "boo arc ultimate Gohan>ssj2 Gohan>ssj Gohan>base Gohan=base Goku>ssj3 Gotenks" chain shown in super.

Actually, there's no concrete proof SSJ = 50x and SSJ2 = 100x in Super, at least at any giving moment by different writers as shown by Beerus mentioning SSJ only gave base Goku a slight boost in power, the same thing is mentioned by Lavender when he fights poison base and SSJ Gohan, literally no difference in level between the forms as Gohan fights the same character that does not power up and remains the same level of strength, only the Saiyans are stated capable of altering their power at will by Toppo due to transformation which Lavender lacks. At this point we probably should analyze who's the writer for said power-scale/fighting episode and what not, why? Because one writer's interpretation of power levels and stats is not identical to another writer's interpretation, the fact SSJ is sometimes states to be tens of times boost and other times a slight/little boost proves that.

[Bullza]

Actually, there's no concrete proof SSJ = 50x and SSJ2 = 100x in Super, at least at any giving moment by different writers as shown by Beerus mentioning SSJ only gave base Goku a slight boost in power

Zamasu does say Goku got tens of times stronger when he turned Super Saiyan.

I can't remember what Beerus said exactly but considering how far above Goku he is, even as a Super Saiyan God, then from his perspective Super Saiyan probably does seem like a small boost.

[brett wheeler]

My question is what would you guys say if frieza and goku go at it agian without golden and blue and goku kicked frieza ass in base without much problem, would you say that maby goku is, just strong but not god level then, what would you do because in all honesty they have pretty much said how strong base goku and vegeta are when they try, and you guys are trying to down grade it because some characters are stronger than you like or goku holds back and some one lands punches on him. What needs to be understood is toriyama isn't a over technical writer he has a simple writing style, and e said goku and vegeta got much stronger after the bog arc, and then later was shown to mach a frieza who could take down a ssj and piccolo in 1st form easy, piccolo was at least as strong as perfect cell and frieza killed him easy, add that with Piccolo's fear to have to fight him after sensing how strong he is and you get that frieza in first form is stronger than a piccolo who is probably as strong as cell, and since frieza is know to get a couple hundred times stronger from first form to final final form frieza is at least buuhan-ssj vegito lol in rof. Goku and vegeta said frieza was strong but also said that they where not trying in base yet, so base goku and vegeta at this point was stronger than buuhan-super vegito character already in base. Hooky and vegeta have gotten a lot stronger since then and yet now there considered weak why because they hold back for fun, or because you don't want to accept characters at the strength they have shown( cabba, Califla, ect... ).

[lord turbo]

Actually, there's no concrete proof SSJ = 50x and SSJ2 = 100x in Super, at least at any giving moment by different writers as shown by Beerus mentioning SSJ only gave base Goku a slight boost in power

Zamasu does say Goku got tens of times stronger when he turned Super Saiyan.

Read my post carefully, I already mentioned this.

I can't remember what Beerus said exactly but considering how far above Goku he is, even as a Super Saiyan God, then from his perspective Super Saiyan probably does seem like a small boost.

Beerus can gauge differences, yet he specifically mentioned the boost from base to SSJ was slight so its a slight boost in that instance and not 50x, the same phrase is mentioned by Lavender against Gohan where he performs no different in SSJ than he did in base so SSJ is stated and shown as a slight boost of power from SSJ to base. Zamasu mentioned SSJ2 (Not SSJ) is tens of times, but tens of times can mean anything between 20-90x, not strictly 50x or 100x. The Zamasu instance is the only time any statement was made about SSJ multipliers in general, however, there's been more times where SSJ is stated to be a small/slight boost over base. My whole point is its not set in stone and the boost for SSJ is whatever said writer wants to convey at any giving moment in the story.

[JazzMazz]

Actually, there's no concrete proof SSJ = 50x and SSJ2 = 100x in Super, at least at any giving moment by different writers as shown by Beerus mentioning SSJ only gave base Goku a slight boost in power

Zamasu does say Goku got tens of times stronger when he turned Super Saiyan.

Read my post carefully, I already mentioned this.

I can't remember what Beerus said exactly but considering how far above Goku he is, even as a Super Saiyan God, then from his perspective Super Saiyan probably does seem like a small boost.

Beerus can gauge differences, yet he specifically mentioned the boost from base to SSJ was slight so its a slight boost in that instance and not 50x, the same phrase is mentioned by Lavender against Gohan where he performs no different in SSJ than he did in base so SSJ is stated and shown as a slight boost of power from SSJ to base. Zamasu mentioned SSJ2 (Not SSJ) is tens of times, but tens of times can mean anything between 20-90x, not strictly 50x or 100x. The Zamasu instance is the only time any statement was made about SSJ multipliers in general, however, there's been more times where SSJ is stated to be a small/slight boost over base. My whole point is its not set in stone and the boost for SSJ is whatever said writer wants to convey at any giving moment in the story.

Though I do agree with the merits of your post, that the strength and effectiveness of forms is only really determined by the writer, I would like to add that I don't think the Trio De Danger's could actually sense Ki. If they could, they would have instantly realized that Buu was far more dangerous than he was letting on, or that they hadn't injured him, and at multiple points during their battles they lost track of their opponents simply because they went out of sight.

[lord turbo]

Though I do agree with the merits of your post, that the strength and effectiveness of forms is only really determined by the writer, I would like to add that I don't think the Trio De Danger's could actually sense Ki. If they could, they would have instantly realized that Buu was far more dangerous than he was letting on, or that they hadn't injured him, and at multiple points during their battles they lost track of their opponents simply because they went out of sight.

I don't think its ever mentioned if the Trio De Danger could sense ki or not, but that's not necessary when fighters can gauge others from simply watching their performance or personally fighting them much like Captain Ginyu could gauge how strong base Goku was after fight him, same with Freeza, same with 17/18, Vegeta when he was watching Goku face Nappa, Zarbon after fighting the new and improved Vegeta the first time around, 18 about the kids from base to SSJ, and even the Z-fighters mention they can't really tell how strong someone is unless they fight them such as Goku commenting to Kuririn about his chances against Captain Ginyu and Perfect Cell for instance. Lavender had already fought and gotten Gohan's measure in base form, he fights him again as a SSJ and there's no noted change in Gohan's stats and they fight exactly the same as they were doing beforehand meaning Gohan's boost from SSJ was minimal.

At this point SSJ boosts are clearly plot driven and not consistently/strictly at one level which varies from writer to writer to suit the needs of the story.

[Lord Beerus]

Some quick updates from leaked images of the manga:
- SSJB Vegeta spars with Beerus and gets smacked around
- Vegeta masters SSJB, essentially putting him on par with SSJB Goku (and Merged Zamasu)
- Mastered SSJB Vegeta punches Beerus right in the face and Beerus no sells it and instantly slams MSSJB Vegeta to the ground so hard it kncoked him out of his form.
- Manga Beerus is wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy stronger than Manga Merged Zamasu.

[Marlowe89]

Some quick updates from leaked images of the manga:
- SSJB Vegeta spars with Beerus and gets smacked around
- Vegeta masters SSJB, essentially putting him on par with SSJB Goku (and Merged Zamasu)
- Mastered SSJB Vegeta punches Beerus right in the face and Beerus no sells it and instantly slams MSSJB Vegeta to the ground so hard it know him out of his form.
- Manga Beerus is wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy stronger than Manga Merged Zamasu.

That's all to be expected, really. Manga Merged Zamasu didn't even have the Light of Justice power-up and was one-sidedly pummeled by Blue Vegito as a result.

[Bullza]

Yeah that sort of makes sense with Supreme Kai and Toshio's comments that seem to imply that Beerus is around as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito so a punch stomping adds up.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito ~ Beerus >>>> Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta = Merged Zamasu.

Edit: Someone commemted on YouTube that this new form of Goku's was something we briefly saw before. When Goku fights Beerus and reverts back to Base form and smashes apart Beerus' attack and then he doesn't know what he did, well that was Goku's new form.

They did mention stuff about his limits during that time too. Probably has nothing to do with it at all but thought it was worth a mention.

[Loputousu]

SBG Goku might be in OP 2. We see Base Goku fighting Jiren pretty well, the same Jiren who owned Kale in one hit.

Judging from their habit of reusing animations from the OP, I think this can be considered evidence for a super strong Base Goku. Unless we never see these animationa reused.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SBG Goku might be in OP 2. We see Base Goku fighting Jiren pretty well, the same Jiren who owned Kale in one hit.

Judging from their habit of reusing animations from the OP, I think this can be considered evidence for a super strong Base Goku. Unless we never see these animationa reused.

I'd say there's a good chance we'll see the animations again, edited to fit the actual episodes they show up, considering that many others appeared.

As for the new form Goku will eventually gain, there are distinct differences. For example, he has silver eyes, like Goku Black's SSR transformation. His hair is still black like his regular hair, but its slightly spiked up, almost as if its in the middle of a SS transformation. He also has a blue aura around him, but its a bit different than SSB's normal aura.

[Marlowe89]

As for the new form Goku will eventually gain, there are distinct differences. For example, he has silver eyes, like Goku Black's SSR transformation. His hair is still black like his regular hair, but its slightly spiked up, almost as if its in the middle of a SS transformation. He also has a blue aura around him, but its a bit different than SSB's normal aura.

The presence of pupils is actually what interests me the most. Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God are the only two other forms that share that specific trait, but with SS3 it's not particularly consistent.

I wonder if this perhaps presupposes a connection with Super Saiyan God more than any of the other forms.