Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

I seem to recall kaio-ken sounds being made when Goku powered up to fight base Cooler. Though I could be remembering wrong, or confusing it with the generic power up sound. But anyway, I don't think he was drawn with the aura in the anime, yet Kai still states that he was using the ten fold kaio-ken the entire time, so... why do you not believe in that theory?

I suppose that means that, going by your power levels, Cooler is stronger than Super Perfect Cell? Cool.

I think I'm going to revise my previous power levels. They're kind of bloated.

[Saiga]

Oh, I wasn't trying to match it up with my power levels, since my power level lists is only meant to fit with the manga.

But the reason I don't believe the invisible Kaio-ken is because I think that is a misrepresentation of what the anime is going for. I think the "invisible" part wasn't literal, and was used to surprise the audience when it was revealed that he was using it. Don't they repeat earlier scenes at that point but show the aura surrounding Goku, suggesting it was always there?

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, I know. It was a joke.

I thought the surprise was that it was invisible? Like, you saw Goku holding his own and thought "If this is his base, then with the kaio-ken, he'll win for sure", just like Tien. but then it's revealed that what he was using WAS the kaio-ken, he just didn't have to turn red and yell anymore? As for the flashbacks to earlier scenes: I don't really know. If anyone could go back and check to confirm that claim, it'd be appreciated. If that is true, then either Cooler is haxxed to oblivion or the makers of this movie simply made an animation error, like a lot of times the SS2 form was used. It's not like they didn't know about the "invisible" kaio-ken x10 when the movie was made.

Anyway, Goku isn't even always drawn with the aura in the manga. He does always have the red glow in the colored versions, though. Also, Tien says "Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?". The fact that he brought up the kaio-ken in general, rather than saying "Aren't you forgetting he can multiply his power even higher than this?", and said that Goku "As he is now" is able to endure 10 times his power (as in, the Goku who is fighting Freeza right now) tells me that the kaio-ken was probably meant to be invisible. Though that's the manga quote, I don't know if he says the same thing in the anime, though it would be appropriate.

[Saiga]

I just rewatched the scene (episode 90), and as Kaio explains that Goku has been using the Kaio-ken the whole time we see scenes of Goku going in and out of Kaio-ken as he's attacking/defending from Freeza.

So the surprise was that Goku can't rely on the Kaio-ken, because he was already using it and it wasn't doing enough.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, according to the anime version of that scene, he was actually using kaio-ken x20, not x10 (if the wiki isn't lying), so the kaio-ken x10 could've very well been invisible before. I can see why one wouldn't accept that theory, but I do, since everything makes more sense. So to each their own; I call it an animation error and assume he was using the kaio-ken x10 before that. Anyway: my new, revised power levels for the Android Arc. For reference, my old ones are on page 82. Decided to place Movie 5 in the middle of this list rather than on a separate movie and specials list (and I'll later do that even with ones that don't fit in the timeline, because it still illustrates what powers they're around at the time). Sue me. Jobbers not included.

Mecha Freeza mini-arc

Trunks - 3,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 160,000,000
Freeza - 7,000,000 (suppressed)
--Full Power - 140,000,000
King Cold - 6,500,000 (suppressed)
--Full Power - 90,000,000
Piccolo - 5,000,000
Vegeta - 4,300,000
Goku - 4,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 210,000,000

Trunks is the same as he was last time. Everyone else's levels were lowered, just because now that I think about it gaps that big weren't really necessary. I added Piccolo, Vegeta, and the suppressed levels for King Cold and Mecha Freeza; I don't think Cold could transform, but I do believe that he was suppressed, cause Trunks killed him in one uncharged hit, and he was grouped together with a suppressed Mecha Freeza by the fighters who hadn't seen 100% Freeza.

Movie 5: One Year After King Cold's Death

Cooler (base): 80,000,000
--Hypothetical 100% Power: 114,000,000
--"Super" Cooler: 285,000,000
--Supernova: 855,000,000
Salza: 6,800,000
--Coolness Factor When Using The Sauzer Blade: 900,000,000
Doore: 1,850,000
Neiz: 1,650,000
Piccolo - 7,800,000
Goku - 8,000,000
--Kaio-Ken x10 - 80,000,000
--Kaio-Ken x20 - 160,000,000
--Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha - 195,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 400,000,000
--Super Kamehameha: 888,000,000

Like the others, I'm rating Cooler a lot lower. I base these levels off of the logic a few pages ago; Cooler thinks that invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku is strong enough to beat final form Freeza. I'll assume he meant 70% Freeza, who was at 84 million; Goku only has to be equal to final form Freeza to make that statement work. "Super" Cooler is clearly far more powerful than regular Cooler (who was implied in the movie and stated in some video games to rival final form Freeza), but much weaker than this Super Saiyan Goku, so placing him here seems about right. Biggest changes are to Piccolo and the Armored Squadron; Piccolo has not started making the REALLY ridiculous jumps yet, but he's still damn powerful. Normally I would accept the given levels for the Armored Squadron, as Kaboom pointed out that the circumstances make most of their feats possible; however, three things I absolutely cannot ignore are Salza fighting evenly with Piccolo, Salza feeling confident in taking on someone who killed Freeza (to me this suggests he's at least above first form Freeza), and Salza being shown to be far more powerful than Doore. I just multiplied his power by 40 and the rest of the Armored Squadron by 10.

Trunks' Bad Future

Future Gohan- 2,400,000
--Super Saiyan: 120,000,000
Future Android 18- 210,000,000
Future Android 17- 222,000,000

Alright, I admit it I pretty much copied these ones from Kaboom... but they're rather close to what I was going to do anyway. Future Gohan is actually rather weak; he admits that Trunks is close to surpassing him prior to the three years training (when Trunks arrived in the past, he was only on par with Namek Goku) and, with both arms, gets whooped by Android 17 using less than of his power. Even after he improved to be beyond "less than half", he's still no match. On top of that, he says that Goku when he died (probably Yardrat Goku) was still much more powerful than him. The androids are simply less than twice as powerful as Gohan when he died and much weaker than their main verse counterparts, per Trunks' statements.

Arrival of the Androids

Goku- 10,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 525,000,000
--Sick: >100,000,000
Vegeta- 11,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 555,000,000
Piccolo- 130,000,000 (full power)
Trunks: 3,900,000
--Super Saiyan- 195,000,000
Android 20- 80,000,000
--Vegeta and Piccolo's ki: 92,000,000
Android 19- 73,000,000
--Vegeta and Goku's ki: 155,000,000
Android 18- 630,000,000
Android 17- 666,000,000
Android 16- 1,900,000,000

Okay, explanations. Goku kind of hit a stone wall with his training; he didn't gain as much power in the first two years as he did in the next two. This isn't uncommon. Similar with Trunks; he already trained a lot, has been a Super Saiyan for a while, and doesn't even have a sparring partner, so I doubt he's just going to multiply his power willy nilly; he's still one-shot fodder to the androids. Vegeta, on the other hand, improved a lot, and is slightly superior to Goku per Goku's and Piccolo's statements. Piccolo just got massively stronger (probably due to the massive potential the fusion unlocked and the sparring with Goku), enough that he's compared to a Super Saiyan (sort of), but isn't said to be quite as strong as any of the big three. Or at least, that's how I interpreted the line.

As I said last time, I consider 19 and 20 complete weaklings due to their performance, where they didn't even manage to touch the heroes, except Goku, who was quite sick and had trouble breathing, and even then only after absorbing a ton of energy. 17 and 18 are exactly 3 times as strong as their future selves; there's no real reason for this exactly, but it matches up 18's performance against Vegeta, where Vegeta held his own but ultimately lost due to the whole stamina issue. 17 is just slightly stronger than 18. 16 is waaaaaay out of their leagues.

Imperfect Cell Saga

Imperfect Cell Initial- 600,000,000
--Post-human meal- 1,900,000,000
Super Namek Piccolo: 650,000,000
--Light Grenade- 1,600,000,000

Just have to explain these two. Goku states that "this Cell guy" is more powerful than him, even before Cell absorbs a few million people. But Cell is still weaker than the androids and Kamiccolo. He doesn't have to be significantly weaker, just weak enough to lose in a fight against a very skilled opponent and weak enough to not think he could take both androids, since they always travel together. After he absorbs the humans, he completely tanks an amplified blast from Piccolo and defeats both him and 17 in seconds. However, according to 16, him and Cell are equal in power. Super Namek Piccolo is simply five times as powerful as normal Piccolo; once again, there's no real reason for making it this specific, it's just something I like to do, and it fits anyway (power differences like this are so miniscule that they aren't even commented upon). Some may be saying that Cell must be more powerful to tank that blast. Well, as Kaboom said sometime earlier, these characters are not glass cannons; the gap needn't be THAT big, because I assume that Cell and the other fighters can generate defensive power to protect themselves, not just make big blasts.

Movie 6: Attack of the (Robot Alien Lizard Man) Clones

Metal Cooler (Initial): 400,000,000
--First Repair: 850,000,000
--Second Repair: 1,370,000,000
Goku- 10,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 500,000,000
Vegeta- 11,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 555,000,000
Super Namek Piccolo: 650,000,000

I think that, if I were to integrate this movie into the timeline, I'd put it a few weeks before the androids arrive, and integrate a ton of dialogue into the main story about it. Apparently the filmmakers had this timeline placement in mind, as this movie was released around the time 19 and 20 were killed. So Goku and Vegeta are both their Android Arc selves. Piccolo, however, is Kamiccolo; there's no way to get around that. Dende is the Guardian, Kami is missing, and Krillin talks about how much Piccolo has been bragging since becoming a Super Namek. So this film can't fit into the timeline. If you'd like to follow the alternate universe theory, then this is what happens when 16 is never activated, Kamiccolo kills Cell on their first encounter, goes on to kill 17 with a Light Grenade, and then Super Saiyans Goku and Vegeta double team 18. Conveniently, Kamiccolo is kept busy with fodder robots until Metal Cooler becomes ultra-powerful, making his power advantage over the saiyans moot.

On the Metal Coolers: the first Metal Cooler encountered is beaten by Goku alone after a moderately difficult fight. After his first repair, however, Metal Cooler starts godstomping; the fact that Vegeta didn't even last ten seconds against Cooler while he lasted a very long time against 18 tells me that Metal Cooler is quite a bit stronger than 18 or 17. After the second repair, all of the Metal Coolers are even more powerful, with one effortlessly demolishing Kamiccolo.

Movie 7: Attack of the Racist Caricatures

Goku- 10,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 500,000,000
--Enhanced By Spirit Bomb- 3,400,000,000
Vegeta- 11,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 555,000,000
Trunks: 3,900,000
--Super Saiyan- 195,000,000
Super Namek Piccolo: 650,000,000
Android 15- 430,000,000
Android 14- 170,000,000
Android 13- 550,000,000
--Super Android 13: 1,500,000,000

The heroes are their android arc selves, so nothing to say there. This movie can be kind of confusing, as it doesn't really portray base and Super Saiyan as different as it should. However, I'm still comfortable with these levels. While at first dominated by Super Saiyan Vegeta, Android 15 goes on to at least put up something of a fight. Android 13 manages to gain an advantage on Goku, though the power difference between them didn't seem huge, and I think that his infinite stamina had no small part in it. Android 14 put up the littlest fight and fought the weakest Super Saiyan, but he at least made Trunks bleed.

As for the big one, Super 13: his feats are beating up Kamiccolo and the pre-ROSAT Super Saiyans. This is not very impressive, and nothing that Android 16 couldn't have done. I decided to place him lower than 16 because Kamiccolo could actually budge him. Goku + Spirit Bomb is that high because he kills Super 13 in one hit. Too bad he mysteriously forgot he could do that later.

..and that's it for part 1. What do you guys think?

[Kamiccolo9]

Why do you have Piccolo stronger than Vegeta and Goku in the first part of the arc?

[Saiga]

The Dragon Ball wiki is indeed lying. Kaio-ken x20 hadn't debuted at that point.

[RandomGuy96]

Why do you have Piccolo stronger than Vegeta and Goku in the first part of the arc?

I assume you mean base Goku? Well, three reasons.

1. Because Piccolo was implied to be stronger than Vegeta, though subtly, when he trash-talked him. He said something like "What? You gonna do something?" after Vegeta insulted him. I don't think Piccolo talks trash unless he knows he can back it up.

2. He hasn't been training religiously and hasn't taken advantage of sparring with a Super Saiyan, but Piccolo has shown again and again that he gains power faster than the saiyans; he gains way more power in the android arc, he gains way more power from training on King Kai's planet, he gains way more power in five years than Goku did in twenty, et cetera. So I don't see why this would be the one exception.

3. According to Herms strength checker, when Goku asks who killed Freeza, he says "Was it Piccolo? Or Vegeta?". The fact that his mind immediately went to Piccolo again suggests that Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta.

As for why he's stronger than base Goku... well, base Goku would end up weaker than base Vegeta in the android arc, so it may as well start here. While Goku was focusing on learning IT and controlling the Super Saiyan form, Vegeta was just training to increase his strength.

The Dragon Ball wiki is indeed lying. Kaio-ken x20 hadn't debuted at that point.

Eh, no big deal. But not very surprising. Have you ever tried to edit there? I have. Not a pleasant experience.

[Saiga]

That's pretty flimsy reasoning. Piccolo trashtalks when he can't back it up all the time, and there's no evidence that he makes better gains than the Saiyans outside of when he was sparring with Goku. The RoSaT didn't help him much. Also, the order Goku says things does nothing to say who is stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo never trash-talks an ally unnecessarily though; I think he only trash-talks bad guys that he HAS to fight. Piccolo can also sense energy, so I doubt he'd pick a fight with someone he's weaker than. I admit that it's not a lot of evidence, but it's all I've really got to go on. Plus, no one disputes his claim.

He doesn't make better gains than the saiyans? What about the android arc training? Or his time on King Kai's planet? He had a fighter at 42,000 freaking out over how powerful he was, meaning he's gotten dozens of times more powerful in just a few days.

Anyway, what about the rest of the list? Any problems?

[Kamiccolo9]

Why do you have Piccolo stronger than Vegeta and Goku in the first part of the arc?

I assume you mean base Goku? Well, three reasons.

1. Because Piccolo was implied to be stronger than Vegeta, though subtly, when he trash-talked him. He said something like "What? You gonna do something?" after Vegeta insulted him. I don't think Piccolo talks trash unless he knows he can back it up.

2. He hasn't been training religiously and hasn't taken advantage of sparring with a Super Saiyan, but Piccolo has shown again and again that he gains power faster than the saiyans; he gains way more power in the android arc, he gains way more power from training on King Kai's planet, he gains way more power in five years than Goku did in twenty, et cetera. So I don't see why this would be the one exception.

3. According to Herms strength checker, when Goku asks who killed Freeza, he says "Was it Piccolo? Or Vegeta?". The fact that his mind immediately went to Piccolo again suggests that Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta.

As for why he's stronger than base Goku... well, base Goku would end up weaker than base Vegeta in the android arc, so it may as well start here. While Goku was focusing on learning IT and controlling the Super Saiyan form, Vegeta was just training to increase his strength.

The Dragon Ball wiki is indeed lying. Kaio-ken x20 hadn't debuted at that point.

Eh, no big deal. But not very surprising. Have you ever tried to edit there? I have. Not a pleasant experience.

I don't really feel like your 1st and 3rd points support that as much as you seem to think, but that's just my opinion. On the other hand, looking at the manga, I found a quote which makes your second point a lot stronger:
When Gohan is talking to Piccolo about why he didn't return to Namek-
"Gohan-"Why didn't you go with the Namek-jins when they left?"
Piccolo-"Simple. I didn't want to live a normal, boring life."
Gohan-"So you're still in strict training?"
Piccolo-"Yep."
This shows that he did keep training regularily during that year.
However, did he ever really make large gains without fusion or sparring though? I had always assumed he inherited all of Daimao's power, which is how he managed to match Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

He did gain a lot of power from sitting on King Kai's planet. He probably got several dozen times stronger despite being there for a shorter time than Goku, who only got twenty times stronger. He did seem to hit a stone wall after the ROSAT though.

Like I said I acknowledge there's not a lot of evidence, and you're fine to think otherwise, but what little evidence there is leads me to that conclusion.

[Kamiccolo9]

He did gain a lot of power from sitting on King Kai's planet. He probably got several dozen times stronger despite being there for a shorter time than Goku, who only got twenty times stronger.

Like I said I acknowledge there's not a lot of evidence, and you're fine to think otherwise, but what little evidence there is leads me to that conclusion.

Do we know he didn't spar on King Kai's planet? Regardless, I have him getting to 35,000, which is only 10x stronger, but that's still a substantial increase. And he does seem to take somewhat of a leadership role in the mini-arc, so I guess there's nothing wrong with having him stronger. I just found it a little odd.

[RandomGuy96]

Thank you. Yeah, that's another thing; I don't think that Vegeta would take the backseat to someone that he's weaker than, or accept trash-talk. He's not really that kind of guy.

But having him at 35,000 is a little weird, I think. Why would Nail, at 42,000, be so impressed by his strength? I guess it doesn't really matter, it's just a bit odd.

[Saiga]

Vegeta's not really his ally, so it's no different from any other time he trash talks. And Vegeta can also sense ki, so why would he pick on Piccolo knowing he's stronger?

There's absolutely no proof over his gains on Kaio's planet. Nail's wording means he's stronger than the average Namekian, but he was before the training as well. He wasn't freaking out either, just complimenting him.

But yeah, agree to disagree I suppose.

[Kamiccolo9]

Thank you. Yeah, that's another thing; I don't think that Vegeta would take the backseat to someone that he's weaker than, or accept trash-talk. He's not really that kind of guy.

But having him at 35,000 is a little weird, I think. Why would Nail, at 42,000, be so impressed by his strength?

35,000 is still more than 10x higher than any other Namekian we've seen, and Nail seems to know that he's incomplete, so I just assumed that Nail was impressed by Piccolo being around his level while still being incomplete. He seemed to know that Piccolo would be immensely powerful if he was whole.

As for Vegeta, well, he did have a Super Saiyan a few feet away from him who could have smacked him down if he tried anything

As far as the rest of your list, I think that Trunks' bp after the 3 years is somewhat low, I would place him about 60% of Vegeta. Other than that, while I didn't agree with some of your numbers, in the context you put them in, they seem to work, and that's what matters. I do think you forgot a zero for the light grenade and post-human absorbed Cell though.

[RandomGuy96]

Oh, I did. Thanks for catching that.

Anyway, what makes you think Trunks was that high? I base his power mostly off him not having a lot of room to improve and being one-shotted by 17.

[Kamiccolo9]

Oh, I did. Thanks for catching that.

Anyway, what makes you think Trunks was that high? I base his power mostly off him not having a lot of room to improve and being one-shotted by 17.

You're welcome.
As for Trunks, I feel that he, being the most motivated due to actually knowing what the Androids were capable of, would have trained the hardest. Vegeta made pretty good gains during the 3 years without training with anyone else, so I think that Trunks could have as well. He wouldn't be as strong as Vegeta, but he shouldn't be less than half of his strength. As far as being one-shotted, there's still a really big gap, and he was sloppy, rushed in without thinking, got caught off guard, and hit from behind.

[Saiga]

Given that Piccolo tanked Goku's Super Kamehameha, I don't think you even need to be stronger than someone to tank their powerful ki attacks. So Imperfect Cell doesn't need to be stronger than the Light Grenade.

Although generally I just stay the hell away from applying Battle Powers to techniques because it gets a little weird.

[RandomGuy96]

As for Trunks, I feel that he, being the most motivated due to actually knowing what the Androids were capable of, would have trained the hardest. Vegeta made pretty good gains during the 3 years without training with anyone else, so I think that Trunks could have as well. He wouldn't be as strong as Vegeta, but he shouldn't be less than half of his strength. As far as being one-shotted, there's still a really big gap, and he was sloppy, rushed in without thinking, got caught off guard, and hit from behind.

Hmmmm... but hadn't Trunks already trained a whole bunch? After Gohan died, he had a lot of time to train, yet only got relatively measly gains. I don't think that he'll suddenly become powerful from just doing that same training. In fact I think he'd gain significantly less than he did last time. Trunks also got a measly 8 months of training, everyone else got over three times as much time.

EDIT: I also put up the power levels for Movie 7. That's it for the Android Arc. On to the Cell Saga.