Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Saiyan007]

How fast is Dyspo?

Thousands of times faster than the speed of light and up

Toppo said that Dyspo is a warrior who through many battles surpassed the speed of light.Granted Both 1.1c and 9e99999999c are "speeds surpassing the speed of light" so it's hard to get an exact number on how fast Base Dyspo is.But he is pretty much hilariously above the speed of light

edit:

SSJG Goku actually could scale to Dyspo's speed since he caught a punch from him and kicked him as well

[OLKv3]

The return of SSG messes up so much
Why did Goku go straight to Blue against 17?
Why did he use Blue on the spaceship?
Why did he uses SSB on Krillin? If it was just to show him god ki, then he could've went SSG.
Does Vegeta also know SSG?
Why not use SSG on U9 and Kale instead of wasting stamina on SSB?
Why not use SSG to escape that guy who tried to ring him out?

[Almighty Majin]

I think the return of SSJG as well as (final form) Freeza's performance in this tournament will finally set the power scale straight (even if it will definitely look screwed as hell, but oh well).

[brett wheeler]

I think the return of SSJG as well as (final form) Freeza's performance in this tournament will finally set the power scale straight (even if it will definitely look screwed as hell, but oh well).

I think its a difference in personality, goku has been said he his holding back to conserve stamina, and we see he does to judge his enemies strength,goku enjoys a good fight and so does vegeta so they would hold back so the fight doesn't end quick, while frieza likes dominating he would hold back but use enough power to easily torture his opponents before sending them off the edge, this is show by the fact that the universe 10 fighter ( can't remember his name ) took on toppo and traded blows, yet frieza swats him like a fly, toppo is a warrior like goku just more justice oriented, he likes a good fight so he lets his opponents transform and suppresses himself to fight on equal ground. I say base goku is a good bit above frieza 4th form, I also say ater bog the difference in his forms power isn't that great with ssj bieng 50× base, ssj2 100×,ssj3 400×, (he next are speculation based on this episode) ssg 600×, ssb 6,000×,base goku seems able to handle a lot and his other forms seem to give normal boosts the only difference is ssg and ssb seem to be far less apart from ssj3 than initially they did, the only explanation is goku base got boosted so its a minimal boost between all the forms ( other than blue witch is shown to be a great deal above the others ), probably so we can have situation like this, so a character around normal ssj lvls can hold there own against ssg or ssb ( ish ).

[avasatu]

We don't know how fast light is in the DB universe. The cast surpassed our real life light speed in Z.

Who cares how Goku went SSG and that he didn't before? Maybe he only recently figured out how to access it. I'll give you that he could have used it more within the ToP, but I won't budge beyond that. Even in the ToP, I can more or less explain all of Goku's uses of SSB over SSG:

1) Vs. Nink: do we know that transforming into SSG produces the same pressure as the SSB transformation does? No. Maybe to escape a rear choke hold, Goku needed that pressure. If not, this particular instance is not explainable.

2) Vs. Trio De Dangers: This is self-explanatory. It took SSB and KK to hold Bergamo down in the exhibition match. What if Bergamo decided to turn on his ability during the beam clash, with his brothers helping him, no less? What's as strong as SSB KK? Two Saiyans going SSB...

3) Vs Kale: She was stronger than SS3. How she is stronger than SSG is beyond me, but my calculations have SSG at 10-15x SS3 (an obvious retcon from BoG unless you believe Goku and Vegeta were so plateaued at the beginning of Super that they couldn't get 10x stronger with their current knowledge and training methods, which is plausible), so I suppose it's not unreasonable.

4) Tonight's SSB uses made perfect sense, though I'm not entirely sure why Goku needed it to go through the mine field unless Kunshi is on par with or only slightly weaker than Dyspo.

I like that the anime is more in line with the manga now. It lets me feel better using some of the scaling, like SSB ~ 10* SSG, and now the recent revelation that MSSB is a 10* boost over SSB.

[Bullza]

I'm a bit later today but at least I was able to watch the episode with subs so this is what I got.

- Hit was referred to as Universe 6's Ace. Therefore he's gotta be above Super Saiyan Kale. Meaning Kale was not stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku at all if even Hit is not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

- Dyspo I would say is Super Saiyan Blue level because he gave Hit (without being able to use his Time Skip) a much tougher time than when a weaker Hit was overwhelmed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku back during the Tournament.

Plus he also had the upper hand against Super Saiyan God Goku.

- They mentioned that Dyspo had surpassed both Sound and Light. I'm not sure if there's anything to suggest though that it means that the others are not light speed. Considering Hit and Goku were able to keep up with to some extent then it would seem like they would also be light speed.

- Either way Dyspo is so fast that even Champa and Zeno couldn't see him move. Champa should be light speed easily too.

- No explanation for why Super Saiyan God came back. It's supposed to be faster than Super Saiyan, less draining than Blue. Super Saiyan Blue is also faster and more powerful than God from the looks of it.

[gofishus]

The return of SSG messes up so much
Why did Goku go straight to Blue against 17?
Why did he use Blue on the spaceship?
Why did he uses SSB on Krillin? If it was just to show him god ki, then he could've went SSG.
Does Vegeta also know SSG?
Why not use SSG on U9 and Kale instead of wasting stamina on SSB?
Why not use SSG to escape that guy who tried to ring him out?

SSG conserves stamina, it is more powerful than SSJ3 but less powerful and not as fast as SSJ Blue
SSJ Blue uses up more stamina, but is the most powerful and fastest SSJ form


I would say the other instances Goku used it was to either test other fighters or because he needed the speed/power

[Marlowe89]

Who cares how Goku went SSG and that he didn't before?

Yeah, people are getting way too caught up on that one detail whilst ignoring the actual content of the episode, which I'd say was really quite good. Obviously the characters aren't going to dedicate several minutes to rambling about Super Saiyan God in the midst of battle; narratively and thematically, that makes no sense. They're putting the transformation back into the story simply because that's how Toriyama and Toyotaro want it, for better or worse.

As for Dyspo's strength, my impression is that he's right in between SSG Goku and Hit. Hit implied that Dyspo couldn't use his speed blitz in rapid succession but was otherwise keeping up with him just fine after getting accustomed to his movements, whereas Goku only looked like he was maybe at a slight disadvantage at most. As previously thought, this episode comfortably places Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo at God level and up.

[avasatu]

Who cares how Goku went SSG and that he didn't before?

Yeah, people are getting way too caught up on that one detail whilst ignoring the actual content of the episode, which I'd say was really quite good. Obviously the characters aren't going to dedicate several minutes to rambling about Super Saiyan God in the midst of battle; narratively and thematically, that makes no sense. They're putting the transformation back into the story simply because that's how Toriyama and Toyotaro want it, for better or worse.

As for Dyspo's strength, my impression is that he's right in between SSG Goku and Hit. Hit implied that Dyspo couldn't use his speed blitz in rapid succession but was otherwise keeping up with him just fine after getting accustomed to his movements, whereas Goku only looked like he was maybe at a slight disadvantage at most. As previously thought, this episode comfortably places Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo at God level and up.

Agreed. Maybe Goku just figured out this form? How the heck should we know? Him not using it in the past is generally irrelevant, if for no other reason than we don't have exact scaling for most if not all characters.
I agree that Dyspo is between SSG Goku and the most improved version of Hit. Where do you place Kunshi? He tanked a HUGE hit and energy barrage from a stronger-than-SSG SSB Goku (whether or not Goku was suppressed), yet Hit's interactions with him imply he is weaker than Dyspo.

[dragon boss z]

I think the return of SSJG as well as (final form) Freeza's performance in this tournament will finally set the power scale straight (even if it will definitely look screwed as hell, but oh well).

Do you think the return of SSG Goku confirms his ssj form isn't actually as strong as SSG?

[Bullza]

Personally I wonder if Goku's new form and the purpose for it was made to fit in line with the manga.

And that's why only recently has the anime randomly brought back Super Saiyan God after 90 episodes and also now keeps mentioning Super Saiyan Blue 's stamina issues so that it can get in line with the manga so that the form makes sense when it appears.

[ZombieVito]

Who cares how Goku went SSG and that he didn't before?

Yeah, people are getting way too caught up on that one detail whilst ignoring the actual content of the episode, which I'd say was really quite good. Obviously the characters aren't going to dedicate several minutes to rambling about Super Saiyan God in the midst of battle; narratively and thematically, that makes no sense. They're putting the transformation back into the story simply because that's how Toriyama and Toyotaro want it, for better or worse.

As for Dyspo's strength, my impression is that he's right in between SSG Goku and Hit. Hit implied that Dyspo couldn't use his speed blitz in rapid succession but was otherwise keeping up with him just fine after getting accustomed to his movements, whereas Goku only looked like he was maybe at a slight disadvantage at most. As previously thought, this episode comfortably places Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo at God level and up.

It pretty much breaks the power scale. How can that be better?

[avasatu]

I can't think of a single instance where this breaks the power scale of the show with 100% certainty, assuming Goku only recently learned to access the SSG form (say sometime very close to the beginning of the Zen Exhibition match).

[TAF108]

Who cares how Goku went SSG and that he didn't before?

Yeah, people are getting way too caught up on that one detail whilst ignoring the actual content of the episode, which I'd say was really quite good. Obviously the characters aren't going to dedicate several minutes to rambling about Super Saiyan God in the midst of battle; narratively and thematically, that makes no sense. They're putting the transformation back into the story simply because that's how Toriyama and Toyotaro want it, for better or worse.

As for Dyspo's strength, my impression is that he's right in between SSG Goku and Hit. Hit implied that Dyspo couldn't use his speed blitz in rapid succession but was otherwise keeping up with him just fine after getting accustomed to his movements, whereas Goku only looked like he was maybe at a slight disadvantage at most. As previously thought, this episode comfortably places Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo at God level and up.

Agreed. Maybe Goku just figured out this form? How the heck should we know? Him not using it in the past is generally irrelevant, if for no other reason than we don't have exact scaling for most if not all characters.
I agree that Dyspo is between SSG Goku and the most improved version of Hit. Where do you place Kunshi? He tanked a HUGE hit and energy barrage from a stronger-than-SSG SSB Goku (whether or not Goku was suppressed), yet Hit's interactions with him imply he is weaker than Dyspo.

I don't know. Are we going to say SSJG would've been completely useless until right now? Outside of just the ToP, all arcs included. Goku basically used it in the same capacity as Vegeta in the manga in this episode, so who's to say Goku couldn't have used this strategy before if the form is as draining as we've been told (told being the optimal word, because they certainly haven't shown us how strenuous it is.) If Goku just figured it out, I'd just hope it's something that gets explained later. I agree that within the context of the episode Goku shouldn't be explaining, though I'd say he doesn't have to. Beerus and Whis have very nonchalant reactions to it's return. The angel's are essentially exposition machines anyway, it would've been pretty easy to throw in a line from Whis about how Goku's been trying to use God and probably just figured it out. Though it wouldn't be entirely outside of the realm of possibility for Goku to mention it either, considering he practically monologue to Hit about the return of Kaioken. Though to be fair, Hit was being a good sportsman at the time.

I don't object to the idea of the form's return, it just felt a little tacked on to me. Other than him using it for stamina purposes, there wasn't really much point. Sure, Whis says it's faster than Super Saiyajin. But that much was obvious due to the nature of the form. It does just feel like something to get in more in line with the manga.

Personally, I'd say Kunshi should be weaker than Hit, Dyspo and Goku. Though he's far closer to Dyspo than the latter to. Goku tanked his mine field without to much difficulty, or really any from what I saw. It's possible that in the shroud of darkness Goku's barrage didn't hit him at all, from what I recall it was pretty ambiguous since we don't actually see the attacks land. So I'd say something like Kunshi < Dyspo could work functionally, the only real standout things are him being able to hold onto Hit (though Hit easily blocked his ki attacks) and him enduring a Blue blast (although I'd keep in mind the possibility of them not hitting him.)

[Almighty Majin]

I think the return of SSJG as well as (final form) Freeza's performance in this tournament will finally set the power scale straight (even if it will definitely look screwed as hell, but oh well).

Do you think the return of SSG Goku confirms his ssj form isn't actually as strong as SSG?

I'm pretty sure it does, but his ssj form is still much stronger than what it was in Z, just not god level. I consider the whole Gohan thing to be an inconsistency on Toei's part since that's the only thing that contradicts things a bit.

[Bullza]

Well to be fair, prior to this Tournament, Goku hasn't been in a situation where he's had to use Super Saiyan God to maintain his stamina.

This is a 48 minute long Tournament where he's had to fight a lot of people so conserving his stamina was important.

There was no such importance when he fought Android 17, Gohan, Bergamo etc for like a minute and then he could rest straight afterwards.

[dragon boss z]

I think the return of SSJG as well as (final form) Freeza's performance in this tournament will finally set the power scale straight (even if it will definitely look screwed as hell, but oh well).

Do you think the return of SSG Goku confirms his ssj form isn't actually as strong as SSG?

I'm pretty sure it does, but his ssj form is still much stronger than what it was in Z, just not god level. I consider the whole Gohan thing to be an inconsistency on Toei's part since that's the only thing that contradicts things a bit.

Yes I agree. I think after gaining god power Goku's ssj became stronger than his previous ssj3, just not SSG level. Maybe it was while fighting Beerus, but I think it may of been a temporary power. Vegeta was able to catch up by training with Whis for a few months, so it couldn't of been an extremely massive power up.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm hoping they explain the re-appearance of SSJG, because something is definitely up with why now it's being used. If Goku knew he could use SSJG at point, why on earth did he not think about to use it at any stage before the tournament? Why did he spam the shit out SSJB after the events of the Resurrection F arc? If we don't get an explanation as to how Goku can use SSJG in the anime before the tournament ends, I'll be really fucking annoyed. And this seriosuly retroactively a hell of a lot Super for me if no good explanation is provided.

This really does seem like something Toriyama specifically wanted to be thrown into the tournament. Maybe we'll get an expliantion when Goku's new form pops up, so there jury is still out. But as of now... fucking hell. Have they royally fumbled the grand return of SSJG, or what? And just to makes things even more confusing, Goku can alternate between SSJB and SSJB, just like what Vegeta pulled off in the manga. Which begs the question... how strong is Goku's base form? Because with what's happened right now, we'll never be able to solve that.

This is exactly what I didn't want happen. For SSJG to just reappear once again with no real rhyme or reason in narrative, when it could appeared so many episodes ago. You fucked up big time, Super.

Thank you for at least understanding how fucking stupid this show is acting. I posted this in the episode thread and was basically told to calm down:

The episode was cool, but Dragon Ball Super is such bullshit. I am so fucking sick of the lack of fucking explanations for anything in this asinine show. NO ONE even was phased that he used Super Saiyan God again, or how it is possible.

Fuck this shitty show. I may just drop it.

I absolutely hate this. I wanted to love this show so much, and I was hyped for this episode. But Goku just flies out of no where in SSG and blocks Dyspo. Then all they say is, "Duhhhhhh Doyyyyy, Super Saiyan is weaker than Super Saiyan God and that has less stamina drain than Super Saiyan Blue."

We Fucking Know That!!!! That doesn't explain how Goku can use this form or why he hasn't used it this whole time!! All you had to say was, "Goku must have fully unlocked the god power he absorbed. Now he can use the form again." It is that simple. I am sick of this show, and its lack of explanation for everything. I honestly may stop watching.

[ZombieVito]

I guess this episode proves that the humans are fucking lazy.

Kuririn and Roshi should have just went to the RoSaT instead of Goten and Trunks and they could have killed Super Boo easily. Fucking hell, 18 should have trained for 5 minutes and one shotted him like nothing.

So anyone know what kind of material is the Great Saiyaman suit made of? While he wears it Gohan is on par with Goku but once he takes it off he loses power and becomes weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc. Must be some awesome shit.

I'm also curious what candy did Boo eat all these years to surpass Gotenks. Mister Satan should have some and become the strongest human!

[ChiefWamsutta]

Okay, this is my theory on how to tie all the Saiyan forms together and assist in the powerscaling:

Base - Natural form of a Saiyan. Black hair.
Great Ape - Evolutionary remnant of an ancestor.
Super Saiyan 1 - Rage-filled form that boosts power.
Super Saiyan 1 Grade 2 - Flawed form attempting to output more power in the wrong way.
Super Saiyan 1 Grade 3 - Even more flawed form attempting to output more power in the wrong way.
Super Saiyan 1 Grade 4 - Natural accumulation of the SS1 form through control.
Super Saiyan 2 - Successor to SS1 through using rage.
Super Saiyan 3 - Attempt to output more power without using rage.
Super Saiyan Rage - Natural successor to SS2.

Rageta - Purely momentary rage boost on top of SS2, like Goku felt when Black killed Future Chi-Chi and Future Goten. Not a new form.

Super Saiyan Berserker - True form of a Saiyan that utilizes anger. SSRage is similar to this. Still not sure which form is stronger.
Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled - Kale's Super Saiyan form. It is a slight variation of SS1 with a muddier tinge to the hair and slightly more power.

Super Saiyan God - Ritual form that opens the god realm, but has a time limit to it. If absorbed, tapping into its full power can result in using the form again.
Saiyan Beyond God - Result of absorbing god power, but not fully tapping into it. Only partially accessing the Super Saiyan God power.
Super Saiyan Blue - The Super Saiyan version of the god power. Achieved by transforming into Super Saiyan after accessing god power.
Super Saiyan Rosé - An alteration to Super Saiyan Blue that happens when someone with the status of "God" accesses the SSBlue form, resulting in pink-colored hair.

This could explain how SSGod appeared in Ep. 104 -- Goku tapped into the full power that he had absorbed back in Battle of Gods. During the RoF fight against Frieza, Goku tapped into only part of the power he absorbed in Battle of Gods, resulting in Saiyan Beyond God. He then transformed into a Super Saiyan with the god power, which becomes SSBlue. The Copy-Vegeta and Monaka-Beerus fights (and potentially the fight against Hit in the U6 tournament) he was accessing part of the power from Battle of Gods, so it was SBG. We could also say that in Ep. 14 the "Super Saiyan Beyond God" was just the god power still merging with Goku, so it would be the SSGod Radiance, as called in the show. I know that there is no concrete proof of this, but it helps create a seamless explanation, in my mind. That would mean Base Goku < SS1 Goku < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku < SBG Goku < SSG Goku < SSB Goku.

Base < Great Ape < SS1 < SS1 Grade 2 < SS1 Grade 3 < SS1 Grade 4 < SSBerserker Controlled < SS2 < SS3 < SSBerserker < SBG < SSGod < SSRage < SSBlue = SSRosé