Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

Sure, it's not apparently contradiction-free, at bare minimum, if you add the original Dragon Ball to the mix. But honestly, with a modicum of deductive reasoning, the most reasonable solution is that Goku has either faster than light reactions (he can dodge beams which are faster than 300,000 km/s) and a comparatively super-slow travelling speed (needs days to get through the Snake's Way), or the moon in the DB universe ends up being much, much closer than ours -- a side effect of Toriyma not bothering too much with the physics of the feat.

After all, you've Goku stopping there between panels to drop the Rabbit Gang. And would the power pole go faster than light? Probably not, I s'pose.

Well Toriyama said this about the Nyoiboi and the Moon. [spoiler][/spoiler] So we can say the Moon is the around the same distance. Of course, I believe in the "combat speed being much better than travel speed" thing but the only way Toppo's statement could actually mean anything is if Dyspo is going so fast in travel speed that it even troubles SSJG Goku/Hit's reactions. What do you think?

Is it said? I thought God was supposed to be faster, just like in the manga (I mean, even if not said, one'd think they're adapting that outline; sounds like a very random diversion otherwise)

Yes, Herms said "While Goku admits Dispo is incredibly fast, he also only moves in a straight line when doing his "thousands of times faster" trick which allows Goku to counter if he gets the timing right. Hence him momentarily going Blue to raise his power and speed to the max." Source: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/899073676833767424

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Super Saiyan Blue is referenced to be both more powerful and faster than Super Saiyan God.

Is it said? I thought God was supposed to be faster, just like in the manga (I mean, even if not said, one'd think they're adapting that outline; sounds like a very random diversion otherwise).

Nope. The Crunchyroll subs had Whis flatly stating that Goku increased his speed AND power when he went from SSG to SSB against Dyspo.

[Loputousu]

For the most part, Goku and Vegeta has been shown with a strong base form and nothing in the story led me to believe that they had a second base form that they never seemed to used once the Future Trunks Saga started.

It seems to me like people on Reddit downvoted you because you were, well, consistently wrong.

SSG coming back doesn't disprove the two base theory at all, it really doesn't mean anything for it. I'm not sure why people like Marlowe89 keep saying that the two base theory is "obviously" not true when SSG is so easily reconciled with SBG. It's arrogant, misleading and disingenuous.

SSG = full SSG power
SBG = partial SSG power + normal ki (because it can be felt)
Base = normal ki

The two base theory is needed because of discrepancies between Goku and Vegeta's strong and weak bases.

There's plenty of evidence of a weak base:

Piccolo vs. Frost compared to Base Goku vs. Frost (Goku in the manga says that Frost is weak
Cabba vs. Vegeta (how did a Base Saiyan w/o SS get so strong without special training with Whis or Vados?)
Goku vs. Future Trunks (who was confirmed by the manga to only be stronger than SS2 Gohan)
Goku vs. Slim Buu
Android 18 vs. Tupper compared to Base Goku vs. Tupper

And a strong base:

Base Vegeta vs. Tagoma
Base Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza
Base Goku vs. Hit
Base Goku vs. Beerus in Monaka costume
Base Copy Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks
Base Goku's minor exchange with Final Form Frieza after resurrection
? Base Goku vs. Jiren (from the opening which has recycled content)

I'm probably forgetting some examples here.

The manga already has a form of the two base theory where SSG simply replaces SBG. In the anime, SBG exists, and it represents partial SSG power.

If we see Base Goku vs. Jiren in the coming episodes, that will confirm the two base theory beyond the shadow of a doubt.

[LowRyder2005]

Sure, it's not apparently contradiction-free, at bare minimum, if you add the original Dragon Ball to the mix. But honestly, with a modicum of deductive reasoning, the most reasonable solution is that Goku has either faster than light reactions (he can dodge beams which are faster than 300,000 km/s) and a comparatively super-slow travelling speed (needs days to get through the Snake's Way), or the moon in the DB universe ends up being much, much closer than ours -- a side effect of Toriyma not bothering too much with the physics of the feat.

After all, you've Goku stopping there between panels to drop the Rabbit Gang. And would the power pole go faster than light? Probably not, I s'pose.

Well Toriyama said this about the Nyoiboi and the Moon. [spoiler][/spoiler] So we can say the Moon is the around the same distance. Of course, I believe in the "combat speed being much better than travel speed" thing but the only way Toppo's statement could actually mean anything is if Dyspo is going so fast in travel speed that it even troubles SSJG Goku/Hit's reactions. What do you think?

Is it said? I thought God was supposed to be faster, just like in the manga (I mean, even if not said, one'd think they're adapting that outline; sounds like a very random diversion otherwise)

Yes, Herms said "While Goku admits Dispo is incredibly fast, he also only moves in a straight line when doing his "thousands of times faster" trick which allows Goku to counter if he gets the timing right. Hence him momentarily going Blue to raise his power and speed to the max." Source: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/899073676833767424

Talk about a nice bit of trivia, very good find.
As for your question, I think that at this point the sensible route is to treat Dyspo's traveling speed as faster than light, compared to the characters being just supersonic/hypersonic in turn; Dyspo should than have comparatively much, much, much, much FTL reactions/ combat speed, which will obviously trouble his opponents. It's quite apparently the only thing that makes somewhat sense at this point, since the characters don't really travel the planet in seconds.

Still think the situation is a byproduct of sheer inconsistency and/or sloppy writing more than anything else, but the current outlook as such is better than nothing.

Thanks to Perhaps, as well.

I'm not sure why people like Marlowe89 keep saying that the two base theory is "obviously" not true when SSG is so easily reconciled with SBG. It's arrogant, misleading and disingenuous.

Eh, as someone who shares a lot of his viewpoints: perhaps you have misunderstood him. Marlowe89's just leaning more towards the retcon hypothesis, substantially: he acknoweldges the base being portrayed as vastly different levels of strength just like you.
Other than that, though, I feel you're completely right when you rightfully say the Beyond God/ SSG relationship is anything but an aut-aut type of deal, in-universe, and that in a sense the theory can't be any "less alive" than before. Unaddressed before and still unaddressed, in short.

The ones who really go jeering others with these "it's dead, Jim" claims are the rowdier part of the bunch, really itching for confirmations/retractions. And which did the same thing routinely in the last year or so every two or three episodes, essentially.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, seriously, I'm getting conflicting opinions here.

On the one hand, I have folks telling me that Two-Base Theory doesn't seriously posit the existence of separate levels of base power from a Watsonian perspective, and is merely a consequence of the anime's narrative structure and folks trying to reason with that.

On the other hand, I have folks telling me that Two-Base Theory actually DOES posit the existence of separate levels of base power from a Watsonian perspective, and has been for awhile.

I don't believe either, BTW, and think that both sides are missing the point and/or misinterpreting things.

===

To bring things back to strength, SSB is definitely a significant jump from SSG, but how significant is hard to gauge. It seems to me that we have something akin to "SS compared to SS2", whereby SSG will be stowed away in a serious fight that requires SSB's power, but is otherwise a decent option.

You know, it's funny. SSG suddenly reappeared in the manga after being gone following Battle of Gods with no explanation, just like it has in the anime. The difference is the time placement, since the anime has gone out of its way to not include SSG up until now, whereas it was reintroduced early on in the Universe 6/7 Tournament in the manga and was more generally accepted after awhile.

[OLKv3]

Remember when people were saying "Kale and 17 isn't actually SSB tier! SSB has perfect ki control!!!! He was holding back immensely!"
Now to cover up the SSG plot hole, suddenly Kale and 17 are SSB level, and SSG wouldn't be enough
This fanbase is hilarious.

[Marlowe89]

I'm not sure why people like Marlowe89 keep saying that the two base theory is "obviously" not true when SSG is so easily reconciled with SBG. It's arrogant, misleading and disingenuous.

As someone who was previously one of the strongest advocates for the two base interpretation, you should probably read more my posts on the issue before throwing around accusations: specifically this, this, and especially this.

In particular, when I say it's "obviously not true" I'm referring strictly to the Watsonian viewpoint of two simultaneous bases as deemed by the authors involved in the show. As a pure Doylist myself, anything that the writers don't intend on their part is wholly unimportant to me if it isn't specifically predicated on the power scale they've had in mind for the series -- so if I had to endorse any version of the two base theory at all, it would have to be a Doylist version that supposes the writers intended for there to be a super strong base at one point in the story and then, at the next point, intended for a weaker base in an attempt to be more consistent with the manga's portrayal of events.

That's just my own viewpoint on the matter; nobody's forcing you to agree with it, but I'm personally not going to follow anything that I don't believe the arbiters of Super's creative process follow themselves. You can take it or leave it.

[Bullza]

After this episode who do people rate higher, Hit or Super Saiyan Rose Black?

Would Dyspo have given Black as much trouble as he gave Hit?

[LowRyder2005]

After this episode who do people rate higher, Hit or Super Saiyan Rose Black?

My guts tell me Black. Hit's showings against SSB + KK *10 Goku have more to do with Hit's "progress" (which I'm inclined to think is a temporary boost, like Kaioken) and/or constantly slowing down time to contain Goku than sheer power. I guess Hit should be comparable to the current SSG Goku, but unless he finds the means to slow Goku down, stopping current Blue could already prove to be a tall order.

Black's apex was shown after Goku obtained the vast majority of his gains, and if I recall their fight correctly the Scythe version should be appreciably stronger than post-training Blue Vegeta.

I've recently ended up my provisionary tier list, starting from Chief_Wamsutta's own list. The extreme end goes like this:

[spoiler]High Hakaishin Tier
SSB Vegito  336,000 billions
Merged Zamas (Half-Corrupted):  300,000 billions
Jiren (U11):  50,000 billions
Beerus (U7):  45,000 billions
SSBlue Kaioken * 10 Goku (U7)  41,000 billions

Above SSB/ Medium Hakaishin Tier
Toppo (U11):  9,770 billions
SSBlue Kaioken Goku (U7):  9,720 billions
SSRosé Black/ Scythe (FT):  6,000 billions

SSBlue/ Low Hakaishin Tier
SSBlue Vegeta (U7):  5,730 billions
Golden Freeza (U7):  4,900 billions
SSBlue Goku (U7):  4,860 billions
SSRosé Black (FT):  4,720 billions
Beerus (BOG):  4,500 billions
SSRage Trunks (FT):  4,200 billions
Sidra (U9):  4,085 billions

SSGod Tier
SSGod Goku (U7):  4,050 billions
Hit (U6):  3,920 billions
Dyspo (U11):  3,800 billions
SSB Goku (ROF):  3,720 billions
Hit (Filler):  3,670 billions
Hit (U6 vs. U7):  3,150 billions
SSGod Goku (BOG):  2,875 billions[/spoiler]

Arbitrary numbers and a couple of assumptions aside (like who's the mortal stronger than a God), I'm pretty content so far with how I sorted out my thoughts.

[ZombieVito]

I wonder what people will say if Freeza beats up SSJ Cabba or Caulifla without his Golden form.

That's impossible with just one base.

[LowRyder2005]

I wonder what people will say if Freeza beats up SSJ Cabba or Caulifla without his Golden form.

That's impossible with just one base.

He already is portrayed as much stronger than the base form of either of them, for the record. He literally stomps/humiliates/trolls Napapa (while claiming that he's not having nearly as fun as Goku) who is between base and Super Saiyan Caulifla, and in general terms is steamrolling every single opponent he's facing -- while Cabba and Caulifla, in turn, should be performing worse than Super Saiyan Goku.

But yeah, some would just resort to the argument his native form categorically had to get vastly stronger in Hell, also -- even though all that's ever expressly mentioned has to do with his Golden form, nobody ever acknoweldging Fourth Form Freeza as any different.

[Bullza]

Hit is kinda awkward to place. During the Universe 6 saga he was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku without using his Time Skip so he was much weaker than Super Saiyan Rose Black power level wise.

When Goku fought him in the rematch he said he was stronger than before and now he's said it again but I don't know if that's just referring to his power level or the whole package.

Without the use of any Time powers and based on a scouter I would say he was below Super Saiyan Rose Black, maybe considerably so. With those powers though he's a lot more dangerous than both him and Golden Frieza.

[apex_pretador]

I wonder what people will say if Freeza beats up SSJ Cabba or Caulifla without his Golden form.

That's impossible with just one base.

In RoF arc, Freeza implied that he could handle Super Saiyan goku without going golden.

[AvatarReiko]

So hw strong is base Goku at this point? I have found its little hard to follow since starting Super. Is he stronger than Buuhan in base and SSJ Vegito in base?

[LowRyder2005]

I wonder what people will say if Freeza beats up SSJ Cabba or Caulifla without his Golden form.

That's impossible with just one base.

In RoF arc, Freeza implied that he could handle Super Saiyan goku without going golden.

It's either a non-objective claim (i.e. an empty boast; Freeza thinking of a suppressed base Goku) or another piece of the puzzle that reinforces the idea the base form seen in ROF was intended to be a de facto stronger boost than Goku's Super Saiyan, at most.

Remember that Super Saiyan was still supposed to make the user at least some tens of times stronger than the base form per the FT arc, and it's pretty out of this world to believe ROF Final Form Freeza was that much stronger than base Goku; they're somewhat evenly matched with Freeza having an edge. (I'm also not completely sure he really does, objectively, imply *that* or if he's just relaxed because he's factoring in that he can easily beat him with his Golden form).

So hw strong is base Goku at this point? I have found its little hard to follow since starting Super. Is he stronger than Buuhan in base and SSJ Vegito in base?

Right now he's at bare minimum physically weaker than current #18 and current Good Buu, while also about even with the Trio De Danger.

[apex_pretador]

I wonder what people will say if Freeza beats up SSJ Cabba or Caulifla without his Golden form.

That's impossible with just one base.

In RoF arc, Freeza implied that he could handle Super Saiyan goku without going golden.

It's either a non-objective claim (i.e. an empty boast; Freeza thinking of a suppressed base Goku) or another piece of the puzzle that reinforces the idea the base form seen in ROF was intended to be a de facto stronger boost than Goku's Super Saiyan, at most.

Remember that Super Saiyan was still supposed to make the user at least some tens of times stronger than the base form per the FT arc, and it's pretty out of this world to believe ROF Final Form Freeza was that much stronger than base Goku; they're somewhat evenly matched with Freeza having an edge.

Freeza said he wanted to let Goku transform into Super Saiyan, and only after seeing blue does he feel the need to "show off the fruits of his training"

It is entirely possible and likely that Freeza used a fraction of his power in base at RoF while fighting base goku, just like he did at Namek.

I don't see how base at RoF was supposed to be above Super Saiyan according to you, when AFTER sparring with base Goku, Freeza invites him to go super saiyan and does not even intend to go golden.

So hw strong is base Goku at this point? I have found its little hard to follow since starting Super. Is he stronger than Buuhan in base and SSJ Vegito in base?

Strong enough to trade blows with fit buu, who is a bit above Fat buu, and strong enough to tank Piccolo's strongest attack (with difficulty) who is stronger than SS2 Gohan

[TheSaiyanGod]

I had the same exact idea when Whis sort of implied SSG isn't stronger than SSJ, but just faster.

He didn't really imply that at all. He only mentioned it was faster than Super Saiyan because Goku was specifically aiming to amp up his speed in that scenario, but that doesn't mean that its increased speed doesn't also correlate with increased strength.

And although I don't have the URL with me at the moment, TheSaiyanGod also posted a scan of supplementary Super material that appears to advocate the straightforward notion that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, as there were arrows between each of Goku's transformations accompanied by a blurb that describes how each level of Super Saiyan powers Goku up further.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Lord Beerus]

Hit is kinda awkward to place. During the Universe 6 saga he was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku without using his Time Skip so he was much weaker than Super Saiyan Rose Black power level wise.

When Goku fought him in the rematch he said he was stronger than before and now he's said it again but I don't know if that's just referring to his power level or the whole package.

Without the use of any Time powers and based on a scouter I would say he was below Super Saiyan Rose Black, maybe considerably so. With those powers though he's a lot more dangerous than both him and Golden Frieza.

Hit wasn't really weaker than SSJB without the Time-Skip. He was actually fighting on par with SSJB Goku.

[LowRyder2005]

Freeza said he wanted to let Goku transform into Super Saiyan, and only after seeing blue does he feel the need to "show off the fruits of his training"

It is entirely possible and likely that Freeza used a fraction of his power in base at RoF while fighting base goku, just like he did at Namek.

Woof. So, to justify Freeza probably outperforming base Goku, who's treated like he's no big deal in this entire tournament, we have arrived to the point where we try to retcon base Goku vs. base Freeza during ROF, with Freeza being about 50, 100 or 200 times stronger than what the fight basically established him to be?
Do you remember the fight, right? When base Goku and Freeza start the power struggle and Freeza is visibly exerting himself like someone he's using all the strength he can muster? And you claim "it's likely" Freeza was taking it super, super, super, super (many other super) easy even in his Fourth Form?

Why is he fatigued, then? And if he wants to fight Goku seriously why doesn't he force him to transform into a Super Saiyan, since he can do it by raising his power just a little bit without revealing his Golden form? ... Well, whatever, I feel like this is a case of "my common sense is not your common sense". Sorry, but Freeza being dozens or hundreds of times stronger than what he let on is by far one of the most outright bizarre theories I've seen since I've started reading this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-YGTLBlbdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eDqq2fV52w

I don't see how base at RoF was supposed to be above Super Saiyan according to you, when AFTER sparring with base Goku, Freeza invites him to go super saiyan and does not even intend to go golden.

You don't know if he would have turned Golden after Goku turned Super Saiyan. And there's not a single valid logical reason to automatically conclude he didn't intend to go all out too just because he doesn't directly state it.
I've also re-read the outlines, and I can't find this supposed time when Freeza invites Goku to go Super Saiyan after they start their fight and not even this supposed time when Freeza doesn't intend to go all out when confronted with the idea Goku will turn Super Saiyan. Goku just tells him they need to go all out at some point, and Freeza obliges.

Episode 23/ end:
Context: Goku and Freeza are about to start their fight
Freeza wonders why Goku isn’t becoming a Super Saiyan, but Goku is sure there’s no need for him to go that far anymore. Impressed with Goku’s confidence, Freeza is ready for his revenge to begin.

Episode 24/ end
Context: Goku and Freeza are fighting
Seeing how impatient Vegeta is, Goku figures that he has no choice but to play his trump card. He thought he’d be able to win in his regular form, but that seems hopeless now. He knows Freeza has been holding back as well, but now is the time for them to both show their hands. Freeza tells him to go first. Goku’s afraid Freeza will chicken out once he sees this, but he obliges, transforming into a strange, blue-haired Super Saiyan. Off on the sidelines, Kuririn notes that he can no longer sense Goku’s ki, and Gohan believes this means Goku must have become a Super Saiyan God. But when they notice the blue (rather than red) hair, Kame-sennin assumes that Goku must have reached an even higher level than when he fought Beerus. In the afterlife, Kaio is amazed that Goku can now become a Super Saiyan God even without borrowing power from other Saiyans, and wonders what sort of training he did on Beerus’ planet.

Freeza mocks Goku for ultimately becoming a Super Saiyan, even though earlier he said he wouldn’t. But Goku explains that this form is a bit different: he’s now a “Saiyan who’s a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”. Freeza repeats this, and says it’s like a tongue-twister. But now Goku says it is Freeza’s turn to show off the fruits of his training.

[ssbgoku]

I wonder what people will say if Freeza beats up SSJ Cabba or Caulifla without his Golden form.

That's impossible with just one base.

In RoF arc, Freeza implied that he could handle Super Saiyan goku without going golden.

It's either a non-objective claim (i.e. an empty boast; Freeza thinking of a suppressed base Goku) or another piece of the puzzle that reinforces the idea the base form seen in ROF was intended to be a de facto stronger boost than Goku's Super Saiyan, at most.

Remember that Super Saiyan was still supposed to make the user at least some tens of times stronger than the base form per the FT arc, and it's pretty out of this world to believe ROF Final Form Freeza was that much stronger than base Goku; they're somewhat evenly matched with Freeza having an edge. (I'm also not completely if he really does, objectively, imply *that* or if he's just relaxed because he's factoring in that he can easily beat him with his Golden form).

That interesting idea, I mean I remember something like that being mentioned by frieeza, but it seems poor performance of gohan, and writters nerfing too much gohan or forgetting how powerfull could he be caused as fans to put base goku/vegeta as strong as even ssg as there was extra claim which was vague but would make sense with portreyal of characters. That remind me Frieeza mentioning buu as benchmark and being impressed with goku beating up buu and only after turning ssb frieeza said that he is even better and suprassed his all expections and that why it is good that he trained himself and managed to unlock new power (golden form). However we know that frieeza has never met buu in person so he has no idea how powerfull he could be(it could be solved if he ever meet him and if he reference goku from rof and compare to buu(at the best), (the worst) says something about being underpowering or overpowering buu to what he thought). We fans of course know so it depends if frieeza was guessing or no and if aim was to show to us or to scale goku to buu in show.

another interesting point is that when goku was shown powering up to ssb for first time, initially he went trough ss and ss2 at least(like ss aura and lightinings cracked a bit later before he turned blue). Frieeza also only become little worried when goku turned blue. Long story short:

Since rof: final form frieeza > ssj2 goku > ssj goku (idk about ss3, or ssg...)