Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

I'm back, with part 2 of my list.

Multipliers:

50x base for Super Saiyan
75x base for Super Saiyan Grade 2
130x base for Super Saiyan Grade 3
100X base for Super Saiyan 2

I don't consider FPSS a new transformation or new mutliplier- I consider it the form a Saiyan naturally gets when the base power gets high enough, and the base power can only get that high by truly mastering the Super Saiyan transformation.

Birth of Perfect Cell

Android 16- 1,900,000,000
Cell- 600,000,000
--Post-human meal- 1,900,000,000
--Semi-Perfect- 4,700,000,000
--Semi-Perfect (Full Power)- 5,200,000,000
--Initial Perfect- 10,000,000,000
Vegeta- 100,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 5,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade 2- 7,500,000,000
--Final Flash- 18,000,000,000
Trunks: 90,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 4,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade 2- 6,750,000,000
--Super Saiyan Grade 3- 11,700,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell completely godstomps Android 16, not even budging when punched straight in the face. However, Trunks and Vegeta completely outclass him. Trunks was stated to be slightly weaker than Vegeta, so that's that. Perfect Cell, on the other hand, godstomps again. Trunks' transformation supposedly lets him match Initial Perfect Cell in brute strength, but we all know the drawbacks present. Vegeta and Trunks got waaaaaaaaay stronger- Trunks is simply slightly below Vegeta, as stated. Semi-Perfect Cell at least forces Vegeta to use Grade 2.

Cell Games

Cell- 600,000,000
--Post-human meal- 1,900,000,000
--Semi-Perfect- 4,700,000,000
--Semi-Perfect (Full Power)- 5,600,000,000
--Initial Perfect- 10,000,000,000
--Perfect (against Goku)- 17,000,000,000
--Perfect (full power)- 30,000,000,000
--Buff- 50,000,000,000
--Super Perfect-- 60,000,000,000

Gohan- 440,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 22,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 44,000,000,000
--Enraged- 66,000,000,000

Goku- 280,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 14,000,000,000
--50% Power- 7,000,000,000
--Tired- 5,000,000,000

Vegeta- 230,000,0000
Super Saiyan Full Power- 11,500,000,000

Trunks- 207,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 10,350,000,000

Piccolo- 6,700,000,000

Cell Junior- 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 1: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 2: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 3: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 4: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 5: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 6: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior 7: 11,000,000,000
--Cell Junior that the humans actually hit in filler: 1,000,000

Okay. Looooooooong explanation, incoming.

As a Super Saiyan, Gohan had already surpassed his father's power. As a Super Saiyan 2, he was effortlessly demolishing Cell. Not much to say about him. Perfect Cell is significantly stronger than any of the Super Saiyans. Some people may think that SPC should be below SS2 Gohan, and I disagree, at least with normal Gohan; Cell casually crippled him with one uncharged blast and was winning that beam struggle until Vegeta distracted him, letting Gohan let loose his rage and win. Goku was fighting a losing battle against a suppressed Perfect Cell, mostly keeping up due to his skill. After he was tired out by that battle, a Cell Junior was too much for him to handle.

Piccolo got much stronger from the ROSAT, but he himself still acknowledges that he's weaker than 50% Goku. He pretty much hit his peak here. He was at least still standing after the Cell Juniors were ordered to kill everyone, unlike the tired Goku. Trunks and Vegeta got stronger from the ROSAT, enough that they thought they had surpassed the Initial Perfect Cell that destroyed them last time. The gap between them is still the same. Finally, the Cell Juniors are about even with Vegeta and Trunks, per Cell's statements. Gohan still one-shots all of them.

Note: If you'll notice, Cell's forms sort of match the Super Saiyan transformations. I like it that way.

Meanwhile, Back In The Future...

Future Android 18- 210,000,000
Future Android 17- 222,000,000
Initial Imperfect Cell- 600,000,000
Trunks- 207,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 10,350,000,000


M-M-M-M-MONSTER KILL

Movie 10: Screw The Rules, I Have Green... Skin

Gohan- 440,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 22,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 44,000,000,000

Vegeta- 230,000,0000
Super Saiyan Full Power- 11,500,000,000

Trunks- 207,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 10,350,000,000

Piccolo- 6,800,000,000

Bojack- 20,000,000,000
--"Super" Bojack- 30,000,000,000

Bido- 14,000,000,000

Zangya- 12,000,000,000

Bujin- 11,000,000,000

Kogu- 4,000,000,000
--"Super" Kogu- 6,000,000,000

Okay. Heroes are their Cell Games selves. Bojack's henchmen are a bit more complicated; Zangya managed to fight evenly with Future Trunks at points. You'd think that Kogu would be the strongest henchman, since he can transform, but he got taken out in one hit by Future Trunks, so he has to be the weakest. The other two don't really have many feats other than getting taken down in one hit by Gohan. Bojack I saw as this film's equivalent to Perfect Cell; he's able to dominate SS1 Gohan at full power, and Vegeta when holding back power, but gets insta-squashed by SS2 Gohan. And unlike Cell, he doesn't come back powered up.

And that's all of my power levels until the Buu Saga. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Saiga]

I don't think SPC should be stronger than Gohan. After all, he was barely winning a beam struggle where Gohan was using one arm and not using his full power because of his mental state.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think being blasted by Cell literally brought Gohan to half power, and I did make Cell weaker than an angered Gohan who's using his full power. But it's hard for me to accept Super Perfect Cell being weaker than normal SS2 Gohan when he nearly killed him with one weak, uncharged blast before he even declared his intention to go serious.

[Saiga]

I don't think being blasted by Cell literally brought Gohan to half power, and I did make Cell weaker than an angered Gohan who's using his full power. But it's hard for me to accept Super Perfect Cell being weaker than normal SS2 Gohan when he nearly killed him with one weak, uncharged blast before he even declared his intention to go serious.

I didn't mean Gohan was at half power, but he definitely wasn't using all his power according to Goku. So having the upper hand in the beam struggle isn't a point in Cell's favour.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Cell's blast was weak. It was intended to kill Vegeta, and Gohan took it off guard because he was jumping in the way. Without being able to properly brace himself, it's no surprise that he was hurt so much.

Oh I forgot to mention this before but Vegeta and Trunks didn't use Grade II at the Cell Games.

[RandomGuy96]

They didn't? I'll go back and change that then.

I don't really know what you mean by time to brace himself. It's not like it took him by surprise, he saw it coming, so it's not like that time Freeza got punted by Piccolo. And it was still a weak generic blast. The fact that that one weak generic blast did so much damage indicates to me that Cell is at least stronger than Gohan's "normal" Super Saiyan 2 form, but a bit weaker than his full power that came out near the end. I also doubt that Gohan would've HAD that defeatist state of mind had Cell not been really damn strong.

[Saiga]

How was it weak if it did so much damage? As far as the manga is concerned, most attacks are generic. Piccolo's Light Grenade is, for one. A generic blast from Nappa killed Piccolo when there was only a 500 point difference between them.

What I mean is that Gohan took it from a bad angle, he didn't raise his guard or anything of the sort. Even if he knows that attack is coming, it's far better to take it head-on with a guard raised.

[Kamiccolo9]

As for Trunks, I feel that he, being the most motivated due to actually knowing what the Androids were capable of, would have trained the hardest. Vegeta made pretty good gains during the 3 years without training with anyone else, so I think that Trunks could have as well. He wouldn't be as strong as Vegeta, but he shouldn't be less than half of his strength. As far as being one-shotted, there's still a really big gap, and he was sloppy, rushed in without thinking, got caught off guard, and hit from behind.

Hmmmm... but hadn't Trunks already trained a whole bunch? After Gohan died, he had a lot of time to train, yet only got relatively measly gains. I don't think that he'll suddenly become powerful from just doing that same training. In fact I think he'd gain significantly less than he did last time. Trunks also got a measly 8 months of training, everyone else got over three times as much time.

EDIT: I also put up the power levels for Movie 7. That's it for the Android Arc. On to the Cell Saga.

Well, before going to the past, Trunks was merely trying to survive. He had no chance of beating the Androids on his own, and this defeatist mentality might have stunted his growth. After meeting Goku, he realizes that there is a chance to save the future, and would be far more motivated to become strong enough to help. Also, since smaller gains in base forms equate to much larger gains in SSJ forms, he would only need an 70 or 80% boost to be around half as strong as Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

Shouldn't Tired MSSJ Goku be more weaker? hes too close to Piccolo. Also Cell stated USSJ2 Trunks surpassed him by a huge margin, they can't be equal.

[RandomGuy96]

How was it weak if it did so much damage? As far as the manga is concerned, most attacks are generic. Piccolo's Light Grenade is, for one. A generic blast from Nappa killed Piccolo when there was only a 500 point difference between them.

It was uncharged and meant to kill a very weak foe. Also, I know this might sound hypocritical, but that 3,500 figure for Piccolo is one of the few I don't buy; it makes no sense that Nappa knocked him out with one elbow to the head yet was surprised by the enraged Gohan firing a 2,800 blast. If he was really that strong, I honestly think he should've been able to beat Nappa alone.

What I mean is that Gohan took it from a bad angle, he didn't raise his guard or anything of the sort. Even if he knows that attack is coming, it's far better to take it head-on with a guard raised.

I doubt it would've made that much of a difference. And even so, I just really don't see any reason at all to put "normal" SS2 Gohan (the calm one) above Super Perfect Cell; his performance against him consisted of getting almost killed with one casual blast and losing a beam struggle. Enraged Gohan is stronger than Cell, but only a little, because he still needed Vegeta's help.

Also, I subscribe to the theory that SS2 Teen Gohan isn't any weaker than SS2 Kid Gohan, he just can't unlock his inner power well enough through anger. All Vegeta says is "he was much better when he beat Cell".

EDIT: Also, I checked, and your power level list makes Super Perfect Cell stronger than "regular" SS2 Gohan as well, so I'm not sure why you doubt that.

Shouldn't Tired MSSJ Goku be more weaker? hes too close to Piccolo.

I don't really see how he was THAT weak. Piccolo wasn't really doing well against the Juniors either, his only good point was that he wasn't on the ground.

Also Cell stated USSJ2 Trunks surpassed him by a huge margin, they can't be equal.

Surpassed by a huge margin? That seems odd considering the massive advantage he had before... got a quote?

Well, before going to the past, Trunks was merely trying to survive. He had no chance of beating the Androids on his own, and this defeatist mentality might have stunted his growth. After meeting Goku, he realizes that there is a chance to save the future, and would be far more motivated to become strong enough to help. Also, since smaller gains in base forms equate to much larger gains in SSJ forms, he would only need an 70 or 80% boost to be around half as strong as Vegeta.

Again, he had less time to train than the others and had already done regular training a whole bunch... maybe he raised his power level more than I give him credit for but it seems weird to place him at over half of Vegeta. If he was half of Vegeta, he'd be about as strong as anime Future Gohan- to much for either android individually but easily overwhelmed by both due to both numbers and stamina.

Remember, he's been training for years and it only brought him up to Namek Goku levels. Goku and Vegeta not only JUST unlocked the transformation, but they started with a way higher base power. Goku and Vegeta about tripled their levels, but once again they had way more training time and had just become Super Saiyans. In order to let Trunks keep up with them, he'd have to advance way faster than they did in the same time.

[ZombieVito]

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P1.3, P2.1-3
Context: as Trunks uses his Super Saiyan Grade III power
Trunks: “What you’re about to see now…is my true power!!!”
Cell: “I see…It truly is magnificent power…You easily surpass me…But you can’t win against me like that…Absolutely not…”

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 33&page=17

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 33&page=18

[Godo]

It was uncharged and meant to kill a very weak foe. Also, I know this might sound hypocritical, but that 3,500 figure for Piccolo is one of the few I don't buy; it makes no sense that Nappa knocked him out with one elbow to the head yet was surprised by the enraged Gohan firing a 2,800 blast. If he was really that strong, I honestly think he should've been able to beat Nappa alone.

Goku said it, Nappa was very tough, and the fight against him took a long time (with Nappa landing NO hits and Goku several). That's good enough for me to believe that Nappa was even as weak as half of Goku's power.
Even Vegeta was very tough to defeat, even though Goku was superior to him in terms to power.
So not being able to do much with being weaker works for me.
Their toughness is what kept them alive most of the time.

[RandomGuy96]

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P1.3, P2.1-3
Context: as Trunks uses his Super Saiyan Grade III power
Trunks: “What you’re about to see now…is my true power!!!”
Cell: “I see…It truly is magnificent power…You easily surpass me…But you can’t win against me like that…Absolutely not…”

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 33&page=17

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 33&page=18

Thank you. I think I'm just going to change the Grade 3 multiplier; it's the only way I can think of to have him godstomp their Grade 2 forms and still be moderately weaker than Grade 3.

Goku said it, Nappa was very tough, and the fight against him took a long time (with Nappa landing NO hits and Goku several). That's good enough for me to believe that Nappa was even as weak as half of Goku's power.
Even Vegeta was very tough to defeat, even though Goku was superior to him in terms to power.
So not being able to do much with being weaker works for me.
Their toughness is what kept them alive most of the time.

I have no problem with Nappa's level of 4,000. Piccolo's 3,500 is what irks me; like I said, if he was nearly identical to Nappa in power he wouldn't have been taken down in one hit.

I also realized I forgot to add Broly's movie. I've also decided not to add Broly's movie(s). Because I don't really like Broly.

[ZombieVito]

That why I have Piccolo at 2,000 and Nappa at 3000 (there's no way Gohan's Masenko will make Nappa's hand shake like that at 4,000).

[RandomGuy96]

Now that's just unnecessary changes to official numbers- 4,000 works absolutely fine.

[Saiga]

How was it weak if it did so much damage? As far as the manga is concerned, most attacks are generic. Piccolo's Light Grenade is, for one. A generic blast from Nappa killed Piccolo when there was only a 500 point difference between them.

It was uncharged and meant to kill a very weak foe. Also, I know this might sound hypocritical, but that 3,500 figure for Piccolo is one of the few I don't buy; it makes no sense that Nappa knocked him out with one elbow to the head yet was surprised by the enraged Gohan firing a 2,800 blast. If he was really that strong, I honestly think he should've been able to beat Nappa alone.

What I mean is that Gohan took it from a bad angle, he didn't raise his guard or anything of the sort. Even if he knows that attack is coming, it's far better to take it head-on with a guard raised.

I doubt it would've made that much of a difference. And even so, I just really don't see any reason at all to put "normal" SS2 Gohan (the calm one) above Super Perfect Cell; his performance against him consisted of getting almost killed with one casual blast and losing a beam struggle. Enraged Gohan is stronger than Cell, but only a little, because he still needed Vegeta's help.

Also, I subscribe to the theory that SS2 Teen Gohan isn't any weaker than SS2 Kid Gohan, he just can't unlock his inner power well enough through anger. All Vegeta says is "he was much better when he beat Cell".

EDIT: Also, I checked, and your power level list makes Super Perfect Cell stronger than "regular" SS2 Gohan as well, so I'm not sure why you doubt that.

What? My list has SS2 Gohan at 5 billion and SPC at 4.5 billion. The injured Gohan is at 3 billion, which is why he was losing the beam struggle.

Anyway, I still don't get where you're getting this "weak, uncharged blast" stuff from. There's nothing in the manga to distinguish it from any other ki attack other than named ones like the Kamehameha. Piccolo tore through Goku's shoulder with a generic, "uncharged" blast. It's not meaningful.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, here's one thing I'm having trouble with: was Gohan a SS2 against Dabura? What do the guidebooks say?

What? My list has SS2 Gohan at 5 billion and SPC at 4.5 billion. The injured Gohan is at 3 billion, which is why he was losing the beam struggle.

Anyway, I still don't get where you're getting this "weak, uncharged blast" stuff from. There's nothing in the manga to distinguish it from any other ki attack other than named ones like the Kamehameha. Piccolo tore through Goku's shoulder with a generic, "uncharged" blast. It's not meaningful.

Nevermind about that, I was looking at your older list. Anyway, Goku didn't see that beam coming, while Gohan did. There's just really nothing suggesting that SS2 Gohan (calm) is stronger than Super Perfect Cell (also, I consider his SP form to be twice as powerful as his normal form to match with the Super Saiyan theme, and FP Perfect Cell was stronger than calm Gohan), as the only things that happened between them was 1. Cell nearly killing him with one casual blast and 2. Cell winning a beam struggle. It wasn't until Gohan got angry AND Vegeta was helping that Cell actually lost.

[Kaboom]

Okay, here's one thing I'm having trouble with: was Gohan a SS2 against Dabura? What do the guidebooks say?

The guidebooks are conflicted. Dabra's bio in Daizenshuu #7 says he fought evenly against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, while Gohan's "growing up" bio in Daizenshuu #2 lists his teenage self as only using Super Saiyan 2 in Volume 37 (against Kibito at the tournament), while his battle with Dabra was in 38.

Generally, Toriyama's artwork (at the time, not nowadays) is considered more consistent and trustworthy than the vague dialogue or guidebooks, and that portrays Gohan as a Super Saiyan 1, in line with Daizenshuu #2.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, he can simply make errors. If the more recent guidebook states it, I'm probably going to go with that. It would make the statement about Dabura being comparable to Cell make more sense.

[Saiga]

The Daizenshuu #2 entry needs some explaining. It lists the Super Saiyan 2 form for Teen Gohan as appearing in "volume 37" which is where he uses it against Kibito. In most cases, where it shows a new form that has debuted but also shows up later, there is a "+" after the volume number. So, Goku's Super Saiyan form is listed as appearing in "volume 27+". Some take this as Daizenshuu #2 stating that Gohan didn't use the form after that point. However, Gohan's "Ultimate" form appears in both 41 and 42, yet is only listed in Daizenshuu #2 as "volume 41", rather than "volume 41+". Same error is made with adult Goku, I believe. So that should really be taken with a grain of salt.

Daizenshuu #7 is the only direct statement we've got on the matter from guidebooks/manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, finished up my power levels for the part of the Buu Saga that doesn't have Buu. Multipliers:

Super Saiyan 1- 50x base.
Super Saiyan 2- 100x base.
Super Saiyan 3- 400x base.

Tournament

Goku- 700,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 35,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 70,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3- 280,000,000,000

Vegeta- 600,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 30,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 60,000,000,000
--Majin Vegeta (SS2)- 70,000,000,000

Gohan- 440,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 22,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 44,000,000,000

Goten- 120,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 6,000,000,000
--Post-ROSAT- 6,600,000,000

Trunks- 130,000,000
--Super Saiyan- 6,500,000,000
--Post-ROSAT- 7,100,000,000

Piccolo- 8,000,000,000

Eastern Supreme Kai- 18,000,000,000

Kibito- 400,000,000

Goku's gotten a hell of a lot stronger. Vegeta later states that he surpassed Gohan from the Cell Games, but the way he says and the comments from Piccolo suggests that he's not THAT much higher. Vegeta's also gotten a lot stronger, exceeding "calm" Gohan. I've decided to make him slightly weaker than Cell Games Gohan (angry) because he still treats that power like it's a big deal. Goku's burst against Yakon is what apparently convinced him to sell his soul to Satan. What conclusion did he reach from seeing that burst? That Goku had gotten more powerful than Gohan was at the Cell Games. Personally, I don't think that Vegeta would make that comparison unless Gohan at the Cell Games was at least on-par with himself. The Majin boost basically made him dead even with Goku.

I don't believe Gohan got any weaker; like Saiga I just believe that he can't get angry and access his hidden power anymore. But still, he's flat-out stated to be the weakest of the three saiyans and hasn't really trained, so his power hasn't changed. Piccolo got stronger, but like I said, he kind of hit a stone wall; he's not making massive gains any more, he's still not even as strong as a Cell Junior. I don't think he's weaker than the base Saiyans like some because, as was pointed out on another thread, he and the Saiyans were all SUPPRESSED and judged by a guy who couldn't even sense energy. Kibito was stated in the guidebooks to be able to give a good fight to base Gohan, so this level works for me.

The Supreme Kai is a bit more complicated; I hear a lot of people say that he's weaker than the base saiyans, but I disagree highly. He didn't show any shock upon seeing SS2 Gohan (making his surprise at base Vegeta's power obviously not a good indicator of his own power) and was only scared of Babidi's minions because of the M's on their foreheads; if he could actually SENSE their energy, he wouldn't have suggested teaming up on Yakon. Maybe he thought that the energy they were putting out at the moment was their suppressed state, I don't know. Anyway, he's a lot stronger than Piccolo, and I like to think that a god is also a lot stronger than Cell's shit. I think he's pretty close to SS1 Gohan, since he had the ability to hold down SS2 Gohan with telekinesis, something that doesn't work if the target is just too powerful.

Babidi's Henchmen

Spovovitch- 31
Yamu- 36
Pui Pui- 58,000,000
Yakon- 9,100,000,000
Dabura- 50,000,000,000

These ones are simple. Per the kiri readings, Yakon is 26% of Super Saiyan Goku. Don't ask me how base Goku vs Yakon was supposed to work... just please don't. Maybe another invisible kaio-ken? I may consider revising that one if it's that big of a sticking point. I kind of just put in a random level for Pui Pui; his strength doesn't really matter as long as he's below base Vegeta, but I just decided to make him weaker than Freeza because I have a hard time believing some random alien was hanging around who was stronger than the emperor of the galaxy (Yakon at least has the excuse of living on an isolated planet). In fact I think he was even weaker than that prior to getting the Majin boost, which would still be absolutely beastly by normal galactic standards- only the royal family of the entire galaxy were stronger than him. Yamu and Spopovich are far above normal humans, but lower than even Dragon Ball-era tournament guys like Chappa, Nam, Pamput, et cetera. Even Chi-Chi would hand them their asses, no problem.

Dabura is moderately weaker than Super Perfect Cell; he was compared to Cell and seemed to be taking an advantage against SS2 Gohan (I'd say his magical powers and experience helped him there, since the gap is only about 10%), but Vegeta felt like he could take him. He didn't regard Dabura as being ultra weak or anything, he just said that Dabura wasn't as bad as Kaioshin made him out to be, and that he could probably manage something as long as he avoided the spit.

Anyway, once again, feedback appreciated. I haven't seen the Buu arc in a while, so I may very well have missed something.