Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Where's all this massive potential in stuff from beforehand, though? Why isn't Trunks Boohan tier from spending an entire life time with the Androids around? Why isn't he a lot stronger than Vegeta in Base when they exit the ROSAT with him?

I've a simpler answer for these questions: Super's anime writers are Trunks fanboys and as DB fanboys do when they write DB (see Episode of Bardock) their favorite gets magic bullshit power ups to make him look extra cool, logical sense be damned.

Well if Zenkais aren't a sufficient answer for you then we can also use what Toriyama said a few years back in an interview.

He said something like: The stronger the opponent is the stronger the Saiyan gets during the battle.

All 3 of those explanations combined is enough for me.

Which again, never happens. There is literally NO point at all where someone improves just by fighting. Goku never does it, Vegeta never does it, Gohan never does it. Hell, the only time it does kind of happen is when Goku fights Beerus and then the entire concept is never brought up again ever and was never a factor beforehand.

[Marlowe89]

Well I suppose it kinda is in a way. Super Saiyan God is Base Goku with God Ki and Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan Goku with God Ki.

I'm not sure if that's quite right -- Super Saiyan God is referred to as its own transformation on numerous occasions and the manga does show him powering up into that form from Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan 3, plus there's supplementary material for Super that treats SSG as a Super Saiyan form between SS3 and SSB.

Originally Blue was supposed to be the Super Saiyan form of an actual base that possessed the power of Super Saiyan God, but it seems that the writers have sort of streamlined all SS forms into being literal progressions of each other since then.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Hmmmmm, does anyone have any idea how strong Kunsi was in Episode 104? I put him at SSGod Tier.

Good question. Who knows? I mean, you see Roshi casually escaping his ki blasts as if their speed wouldn't faze him, but then you see him restraining Hit, surviving a punch from Blue Goku and apparently making Hit fear he could be damaged if he steps on one of his mines.
Rationally, I don't really think he's really intended to be a power-house among the contestants at all, unlike Dyspo, and I doubt they wanted to make him stronger than Kahseral (who looks to be pretty high-ranking among the Troopers), a guy who all in all couldn't k.o. #18 and easily dispose of Super Saiyan Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale.
I have him in the low billions (but to be honest, I feel like I could have him in the low millions without changing his role), with his feats generally being a product of questionable writing. In-universe, I think Dyspo covering for him in battle and Goku keeping SSB in his minefield for sureness - similar to the use of SSB against the Trio de Danger - simply made him look like a million bucks in the latest episode.

It's confusing because, essentially, Kunshi could not catch Roshi, but was able to catch Hit.

I think this stems from Hit being preoccupied with his battle against Dyspo. No one other than Goku has given him trouble before to this magnitude, so Hit probably had his mind focused on Dyspo.

That would put Kunshi below Roshi, which I am fine with.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I had a couple head-to-head battle ideas. I would be curious if people come up with the same answers as me.

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit

My thoughts:
[spoiler]1) SSBerserker Kale because I believe Goku was trying harder as SSBlue against her.

2) SSRage Trunks since he was able to keep up with SSBlue Goku at his peak, and Goku said he was holding back against #17.

3) SSGod Goku, as I think Ultimate Gohan and SSBerserker Kale are around SS3 Tier.

4) True Golden Frieza because I would put Android 17 with Gohan in the same tier.

5) Piccolo, probably, because he beat SS2 Gohan and Zamasu lost to SS2 Goku.

6) Dyspo would win, unless Vegeta used SSGod-Blue.

7) Toppo would win, but it would be close. I would love to see this fight in the anime.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black by a hair, based on power. Hit would win because of his abilities though.[/spoiler]

[avasatu]

For the people that use one base, please explain to me how SSR Black is comparable to SSB Goku when the former's base is 400 times stronger than the latter.

Base Black IS an SBG type base because it's a future Goku inhabited by a literal god, and a prodigy at that, and SSR is about a 10 times boost, similar to how SSB is about a 10 times boost from SSG. That's my explanation, and it works nicely. This doesn't work for the story of the manga, though, but it doesn't need to. However, I'm comfortable applying manga transformational scaling to the anime at this point, since it's clear the anime means to catch up conceptually.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

1) I think Kale is much stronger than Gohan, so it would be a one-sided battle.
2) While Trunks was weaker than Black, he still put up a good fight against him and Zamasu alone. I don't think #17 is quite on that level.
3) As strong as Gohan is, I don't believe he's Super Saiyan God tier. Goku could fight him well in Super Saiyan 2 alone.
4) Golden Freeza is about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku, so he wins with ease.
5) Goku's clash with the distracted Zamasu gave him a "tremble" he hadn't felt since fighting Beers. I doubt Piccolo would be anywhere near as impressive, so he loses.
6) Dyspo has great speed, but he's outclassed in everything else. Vegeta should win assuming he doesn't get too frustrated.
7) I think Toppo's true power is kinda above Super Saiyan Blue Goku's...and by extension, Golden Freeza's. Good fight that would probably end with Toppo as the winner.
8 ) I always thought about this battle. Hit was able to challenge a Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x10, while Black was superior to Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Good battle. I'd probably give it to Black because he can keep getting stronger, but Hit seems like he'd be superior. I dunno.

[avasatu]

I had a couple head-to-head battle ideas. I would be curious if people come up with the same answers as me.

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit

My thoughts:
[spoiler]1) SSBerserker Kale because I believe Goku was trying harder as SSBlue against her.

2) SSRage Trunks since he was able to keep up with SSBlue Goku at his peak, and Goku said he was holding back against #17.

3) SSGod Goku, as I think Ultimate Gohan and SSBerserker Kale are around SS3 Tier.

4) True Golden Frieza because I would put Android 17 with Gohan in the same tier.

5) Piccolo, probably, because he beat SS2 Gohan and Zamasu lost to SS2 Goku.

6) Dyspo would win, unless Vegeta used SSGod-Blue.

7) Toppo would win, but it would be close. I would love to see this fight in the anime.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black by a hair, based on power. Hit would win because of his abilities though.[/spoiler]

1) Ultimate Gohan with Kale as is. But if she continues to improve at the same rate she was in 100, Kale. I believe Ultimate Gohan is relative to a very high percentage of SSB Goku, and that SSB Goku was messing around vs. Kale, though he miscalculated.

2) We don't have enough on 17, but 17. He's below Gohan, but not by much, and SSRage Trunks is far below current SSB Goku (unless you mean current SSRage Trunks, who we have no data on, but could very well be the winner here. I doubt he's training much, living in peace at all, so 17).

3) Ultimate Gohan. Same reasoning as for #1 + using the fact that SSB is ~ 10 times SSG, from manga.

4) TGF. TGF is equal to or slightly stronger than 100% SSB Goku, and 17 is not, according to Toshio and logic.

5) Zamasu, barely, especially if future. Goku needed SS2 to be relative, and Piccolo is about equal to base Goku, maybe slightly weaker. Granted, this base Goku is stronger than he was at the beginning of the Black arc, but I doubt 50-100 times stronger.

6) Dyspo. Dyspo was beating SSG Goku, and avoiding SSB shots. I think a better question is SSB Vegeta vs Dyspo, but then Vegeta stomps.This is assuming Vegeta is near Goku, and Toshio believes this to be the case.

7) Toppo. He is relatively to somewhere between 100% SSB Goku and KK SSB Goku, and TGF is just a hair over SSB Goku.

8 ) Current Hit roflstomps SSR Black. Not sure which Hit you mean. Vegeta just before Zamasu fused with Black was still insanely stronger than Black. He and Goku were one shotting Black's clones, only being curbed by their sheer numbers and the stupidity of Black's antics. Well, they've gotten much stronger since, and are relative to Hit in either direction.

[ZombieVito]

For the people that use one base, please explain to me how SSR Black is comparable to SSB Goku when the former's base is 400 times stronger than the latter.

Base Black IS an SBG type base because it's a future Goku inhabited by a literal god, and a prodigy at that, and SSR is about a 10 times boost, similar to how SSB is about a 10 times boost from SSG. That's my explanation, and it works nicely. This doesn't work for the story of the manga, though, but it doesn't need to. However, I'm comfortable applying manga transformational scaling to the anime at this point, since it's clear the anime means to catch up conceptually.

But I said with one base.

With SbG the scenario is perfectly explained.

[Animelover5487]

I had a couple head-to-head battle ideas. I would be curious if people come up with the same answers as me.

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan Gohan wins. Kale is more powerful imo but she doesn't have much control over her power and won't last long in a prolonged battle which Gohan would take advantage of, plus Gohan is way more experienced than her and could blitz past some of her attacks.

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17 Trunks wins. 17 only needs to be above Super Saiyan God.

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan Gohan wins. I don't think SSB Goku was holding back much.

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17 Freeza stomps. 17 is only a little above SSG but considerably below SSB.

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu Zamasu stomps. Piccolo isn't even Base Goku level.

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo Dyspo blitzes and fucks Veggie's shit up.

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo Toppo was stated to be equal to Kaioken SSB Goku. He puts the hurting on Freeza.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit Going with Hit on this one since I don't think Black would be skilled enough to put Hit down for the count before he improves any further, plus Hit's killer techniques could be devastating.

My thoughts:
[spoiler]1) SSBerserker Kale because I believe Goku was trying harder as SSBlue against her.

2) SSRage Trunks since he was able to keep up with SSBlue Goku at his peak, and Goku said he was holding back against #17.

3) SSGod Goku, as I think Ultimate Gohan and SSBerserker Kale are around SS3 Tier.

4) True Golden Frieza because I would put Android 17 with Gohan in the same tier.

5) Piccolo, probably, because he beat SS2 Gohan and Zamasu lost to SS2 Goku.

6) Dyspo would win, unless Vegeta used SSGod-Blue.

7) Toppo would win, but it would be close. I would love to see this fight in the anime.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black by a hair, based on power. Hit would win because of his abilities though.[/spoiler]

There you go.

[avasatu]

For the people that use one base, please explain to me how SSR Black is comparable to SSB Goku when the former's base is 400 times stronger than the latter.

Base Black IS an SBG type base because it's a future Goku inhabited by a literal god, and a prodigy at that, and SSR is about a 10 times boost, similar to how SSB is about a 10 times boost from SSG. That's my explanation, and it works nicely. This doesn't work for the story of the manga, though, but it doesn't need to. However, I'm comfortable applying manga transformational scaling to the anime at this point, since it's clear the anime means to catch up conceptually.

But I said with one base.

With SbG the scenario is perfectly explained.

Nowhere am I saying anyone has two bases. The Saiyans have one, and Black has one, SBG base.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I had a couple head-to-head battle ideas. I would be curious if people come up with the same answers as me.

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan Gohan wins. Kale is more powerful imo but she doesn't have much control over her power and won't last long in a prolonged battle which Gohan would take advantage of, plus Gohan is way more experienced than her and could blitz past some of her attacks.

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17 Trunks wins. 17 only needs to be above Super Saiyan God.

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan Gohan wins. I don't think SSB Goku was holding back much.

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17 Freeza stomps. 17 is only a little above SSG but considerably below SSB.

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu Zamasu stomps. Piccolo isn't even Base Goku level.

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo Dyspo blitzes and fucks Veggie's shit up.

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo Toppo was stated to be equal to Kaioken SSB Goku. He puts the hurting on Freeza.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit Going with Hit on this one since I don't think Black would be skilled enough to put Hit down for the count before he improves any further, plus Hit's killer techniques could be devastating.

My thoughts:
[spoiler]1) SSBerserker Kale because I believe Goku was trying harder as SSBlue against her.

2) SSRage Trunks since he was able to keep up with SSBlue Goku at his peak, and Goku said he was holding back against #17.

3) SSGod Goku, as I think Ultimate Gohan and SSBerserker Kale are around SS3 Tier.

4) True Golden Frieza because I would put Android 17 with Gohan in the same tier.

5) Piccolo, probably, because he beat SS2 Gohan and Zamasu lost to SS2 Goku.

6) Dyspo would win, unless Vegeta used SSGod-Blue.

7) Toppo would win, but it would be close. I would love to see this fight in the anime.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black by a hair, based on power. Hit would win because of his abilities though.[/spoiler]

There you go.

6- Dyspo was very quick, but Goku himself said that his movements were predictable. It took some hits on SSG, but nothing serious.
He used the SSB to maximize power and speed only when he was surprised by Dyspo (when he could not teleport). But I see Vegeta SSG being able to match him yes, and overcome with SSB

7- It was never said that Toppo was level Goku SSB KK x10. In fact, Goku used it because he wanted to show Toppo what happens when he goes beyond his limits.
But he tells Vegeta that he did not know if he could defeat Toppo just with Blue. He does not even mention the Kaioken
So we could say that it is possible Goku SSB defeat Toppo without the Kaioken

[Bullza]

That doesn't sound right. Why even bother to train in base if that's true?

Well he fights using his Base and Super Saiyan forms all the time so he'd need them to be strong.

[JazzMazz]

That doesn't sound right. Why even bother to train in base if that's true?

Well he fights using his Base and Super Saiyan forms all the time so he'd need them to be strong.

Whis mentions in episode 18 the reason why they train in base(transforming would make them dependent on the form and would mask their shortcomings), though I'm not sure if it can really be applied to why they fight in their base nearly all the time out of training.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Thank you to everyone who was answering my head-to-head matches. It is nice that future episodes could allow for the bolded match-ups to be cleared away. We can infer the underlined match-ups, and then the rest can probably be calculated after this arc is over.

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit

[Bullza]

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit

1. Probably Ultimate Gohan. No way of knowing for sure yet but he held up well against a Super Saiyan Blue Goku who supposedly wasn't holding back. Kale on the other hand should be weaker than Hit as he's their "ace" and he himself is weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

2. Trunks probably. He was as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. All we know is that Android 17 matched a suppressed version.

3. Couldn't really say. We don't know how strong God is compared to Blue exactly nor how strong Ultimate Gohan is supposed to be. Ideally Super Saiyan God Goku would win because it'd be idiotic for Gohan to have gone from his strength during the Buu saga to God level in a couple hours.

4. Golden Frieza wins this one easily.

5. Zamasu should be stronger because he was strong enough that Goku had to turn Super Saiyan (2?). Again ideally Base Goku himself should be around Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan level already and Piccolo was not. This is all something of a mess though in itself.

6. Dyspo. He was beating Super Saiyan God Goku so he'd do the same to Vegeta. He was about on par with Hit really, Hit only had the upper hand in intelligence not necessarily power.

7. Toppo. Golden Frieza is equal to Super Saiyan Blue Goku but Toppo was said to be equal to Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken.

8. Probably Hit. Wouldn't he just kill Black like he did with Goku? Except Black wouldn't think to fire the chi blast into the sky. Would he figure out the Time Storage dimension trick? He's probably not as combat smart as Goku so he might not. I do think he's probably more powerful than Hit and could win but he just wouldn't know how to.

Then again could Hit even finish off Black or would the damage he gave him just continue to make him stronger and stronger? But then wouldn't Hit just continue to improve? So I don't know.

Hit vs Black is one of the most interesting hypothetical fights in my opinion.

[Marlowe89]

Just want to quickly note that Zamasu was recognized as a fighting prodigy and that Black was also capable of adapting quickly to disadvantageous situations on numerous occasions (in the manga he figured out Vegeta's God-Blue switching trick pretty quickly, in the anime he similarly figured out Vegeta was powering up through rage as opposed to the usual method, even mimicking that for his own benefit).

I think it's very much possible that Black is entirely capable of circumventing Hit's techniques. I suppose we'll never know for sure though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Just want to quickly note that Zamasu was recognized as a fighting prodigy and that Black was also capable of adapting quickly to disadvantageous situations on numerous occasions (in the manga he figured out Vegeta's God-Blue switching trick pretty quickly, in the anime he similarly figured out Vegeta was powering up through rage as opposed to the usual method, even mimicking that for his own benefit).

I think it's very much possible that Black is entirely capable of circumventing Hit's techniques. I suppose we'll never know for sure though.

Heck, he became so powerful that his new Ki scythe could casually cut a whole between dimensions.

Considering how Goku used a Kamehameha to bust up Hit's time dimension, I could see a swipe or two of that scythe doing the same.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Just want to quickly note that Zamasu was recognized as a fighting prodigy and that Black was also capable of adapting quickly to disadvantageous situations on numerous occasions (in the manga he figured out Vegeta's God-Blue switching trick pretty quickly, in the anime he similarly figured out Vegeta was powering up through rage as opposed to the usual method, even mimicking that for his own benefit).

I think it's very much possible that Black is entirely capable of circumventing Hit's techniques. I suppose we'll never know for sure though.

Goku Black not being in the Tournament of Power is an unfortunate result of the plot. It would have been amazing to add Goku Black into the battle royale, and I would personally feel, only then, would all of the strongest fighters from the eight universes be gathered together.

If somehow Buu, Frieza, Cell, and Goku Black could have all been in the tournament without it becoming a stale plot device I would have liked it. We may never actually get to see SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit, which is saddening.


I genuinely can't wait for Toppo vs. Frieza, maybe Frieza vs. Hit, and a few other fights.

[Nero<>Akira]

Goku is not god level whatsoever unless he is in SSG or SSB. He is still VERY strong now in his base, SS1, SS2, & SS3 levels. His base as well as Vegeta's are both way past Fat Boo in the Boo arc and likely past SSJ3 in the boo arc as well. The fact that he goes to SSG and SSB while still accessing his normal forms should be a clear indication that he's using god ki in those 2 forms otherwise he would never be able to use 1, 2, and 3 anymore.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku is not god level whatsoever unless he is in SSG or SSB. He is still VERY strong now in his base, SS1, SS2, & SS3 levels. His base as well as Vegeta's are both way past Fat Boo in the Boo arc and likely past SSJ3 in the boo arc as well. The fact that he goes to SSG and SSB while still accessing his normal forms should be a clear indication that he's using god ki in those 2 forms otherwise he would never be able to use 1, 2, and 3 anymore.

A weaker-than-usual Super Saiyan Gohan, #18, Piccolo, and Good Buu all had (more or less, let's leave Piccolo aside) better feats than Goku's base form in the latest episodes. The contention is highly debatable.

... It's become kind of a leitmotiv in this thread, hasn't it?