Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Nero<>Akira]

Without Saiyan beyond God that is sadly untrue. Goku was already god tier just in his regular Super Saiyan form by the end of the Battle of Gods arc.

That would seemingly be temporarily though. He was that strong as a Super Saiyan whilst the power of Super Saiyan God was still burning inside him and then afterwards in the Resurrection F saga he had to train to reachieved that power on his own.

It's odd how it all works I guess because Goku was far more powerful following the fight with Beerus than before it but still wouldn't be as strong as God.

There was nothing to ever suggest that the power-boost was temporary, thats why Vegeta took 6 months of the most intense training he had ever done under Whis to surpass Goku in his base form. Also, it was confirmed this episode that while SSG is definitely the more capable form due to it having a considerable speed advantage, it isn't all that much more powerful than SS Goku usually is.

This has all been changed by the U6 arc. Best not to cling on to it anymore. God Ki is a separate source of strength. There's no reason for Goku or Vegeta being able to access their basic forms if they were always using the power of god ki by default. SSG would be an inaccessible form like in the F arc if goku's base was god level already. It's the same as Gohan's ultimate form. Gohan can't go super saiyan once his ultimate power is unlocked because accessing that power is like going SSJ. I seriously cannot fathom how so much people cannot comprehend something like this.

SSB is going SS when you have the power of god ki already in this case Goku in his base form. Now, he's going SS, SS2, & SS3 without going SSB. Why? cause he's not using god ki when doing it. it's a retcon done through Goku & Vegeta training in the time chamber. This is something that I can't stand to be misunderstood by the community and have people like SethTheProgrammer thinking they're very knowledgeable in the series and doesn't even seem to comprehend what retcons are.

[pacz360]

Like many fights thus far in the Tournament of Power, it wasn't Dyspo's strength that was emphasized, it was incredible speed compared to everyone else.

Exchanging blows and taking hits is no longer an indicator of power levels to the degree that it once was, especially in this tournament.

I place him wherever I want to, since his abilities are what made him dangerous.

That doesn't change the fact he was able to send hit on his ass and push back Ssjg god
He isn't a monster compared to toppo and jiren but in strength he isnt no slouch
And hit definitely felt his punches

Because his speed was so great that both of them couldn't brace themselves.

This isn't Z anymore where you just take a shot and no-sell it. This is a martial arts tournament with martial arts dynamics, which means that getting hit AT ALL is gonna send you reeling unless you've blocked, dodged, or braced yourself.

Remember Obuni and Gohan? Ultimate Gohan let himself take hits to gauge how to read Obuni's movements, and the episode had Whis remind us that doing this was a double-edged sword because taking hits means you take damage.

And we have earlier examples too, like Krillin using his Solar Flare x100 to blind Gohan and get in enough hits to send him off their fighting area, Krillin faking out Goku by making him think he was gonna use a Solar Flare and getting in some free blasts, and many examples in the Tournament of Power where fighters are getting hit left and right by a wide assortment of attacks.

Not really comparable m8 dyspo still would need the strength to even hurt hit let send goku ass back in their fight

[Bullza]

There was nothing to ever suggest that the power-boost was temporary, thats why Vegeta took 6 months of the most intense training he had ever done under Whis to surpass Goku in his base form.

If it wasn't temporary then he wouldn't have need to train hard to learn how to become a Super Saiyan God on his own. That he had to means that somewhere between fighting Beerus and him going in Whis' staff he did not have that power.

Which is sort of what Whis said.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Not really comparable m8 dyspo still would need the strength to even hurt hit let send goku ass back in their fight

UNLESS.............. This is Dragon Ball Super logic we're working with, with tournament rules and martial arts dynamics.

Let go of your preconceived notions of how fighting works back in the old material, because they aren't in play right now.

Taking a hit hurts now regardless of who did it, which is something power-scaling enthusiasts need to factor in. Power scaling is no longer entirely linear and predictable. More examples include Slim Buu distracting Goku enough with his rapid-fire Ki blasts to get him in a punch combo before pushing him out of bounds, Roshi threw down with Goku in a pure exchange of blows, and fighters like Magetta and Murichim having exchanged hits with the likes of Toppo.

[Nickolaidas]

UNLESS.............. This is Dragon Ball Super logic we're working with, with tournament rules and martial arts dynamics.

Let go of your preconceived notions of how fighting works back in the old material, because they aren't in play right now.

Taking a hit hurts now regardless of who did it, which is something power-scaling enthusiasts need to factor in. Power scaling is no longer entirely linear and predictable. More examples include Slim Buu distracting Goku enough with his rapid-fire Ki blasts to get him in a punch combo before pushing him out of bounds, Roshi threw down with Goku in a pure exchange of blows, and fighters like Magetta and Murichim having exchanged hits with the likes of Toppo.

This guy gets it. Or at the very least, accepts it.

[supercat]

Here we go again with the whole downplaying of characters that were obviously portrayed to be powerhouses. If Dyspo could send both Hit and ritual form Goku flying back while causing them notable pain, it's pretty clear that he would at the very least absolutely wreck everyone from the Buu saga. Buuhan, SSJ Vegetto, Buutenks, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), SSJ3 Gotenks, or whoever, would all get one-shotted. Sure speed may be a factor here, but strength/power-wise Dyspo should still be leagues above anything the top-tiers of the Buu saga could only dream of.

We're seriously years past the Buu saga, and sagas and sagas beyond it, I'm not sure why people still think power levels from said time period are even relevant. I get that characters like Buu and SSJ Vegetto were top contenders for a long time before Super and the new movies, but it's strongly implied that's simply not really the case anymore.

[Doctor.]

Here we go again with the whole downplaying of characters that were obviously portrayed to be powerhouses. If Dyspo could send both Hit and ritual form Goku flying back while causing them notable pain, it's pretty clear that he would at the very least absolutely wreck everyone from the Buu saga. Buuhan, SSJ Vegetto, Buutenks, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), SSJ3 Gotenks, or whoever, would all get one-shotted. Sure speed may be a factor here, but strength/power-wise Dyspo should still be leagues above anything the top-tiers of the Buu saga could only dream of.

We're seriously years past the Buu saga, and sagas and sagas beyond it, I'm not sure why people still think power levels from said time period are even relevant. I get that characters like Buu and SSJ Vegetto were top contenders for a long time before Super and the new movies, but it's strongly implied that's simply not really the case anymore.

I haven't seen anyone downplaying Dyspo's strength here. Just people questioning how SSG fits into Goku's transformation tree.

This unreasonable bias you have against Boo and the Boo arc seriously needs to stop. I don't think I've seen you make a post in this thread without referencing the arc and its antagonist.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Here we go again with the whole downplaying of characters that were obviously portrayed to be powerhouses. If Dyspo could send both Hit and ritual form Goku flying back while causing them notable pain, it's pretty clear that he would at the very least absolutely wreck everyone from the Buu saga. Buuhan, SSJ Vegetto, Buutenks, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), SSJ3 Gotenks, or whoever, would all get one-shotted. Sure speed may be a factor here, but strength/power-wise Dyspo should still be leagues above anything the top-tiers of the Buu saga could only dream of.

We're seriously years past the Buu saga, and sagas and sagas beyond it, I'm not sure why people still think power levels from said time period are even relevant. I get that characters like Buu and SSJ Vegetto were top contenders for a long time before Super and the new movies, but it's strongly implied that's simply not really the case anymore.

The reason you're perceiving this to be the case is that the importance of power has been going down and down as more pure martial arts skill and strategy is brought back into the series.

Nobody is saying Dyspo is weak. Far from it.

We're just saying that that's not why he was doing so well. His power wasn't emphasized, his speed was. People like myself have been distancing power from performance for awhile now, because the latter is no longer entirely predicated on the former. Dyspo doesn't need to be super strong to be dangerous anymore. Maybe back in Dragon Ball Z he might've, but not now. Now sure, he certainly could be as strong as Hit or SSG, but he doesn't need to be to have the exact same performance as he did in the episode.

I'm gonna make it absolutely clear right now: Power =/= Performance. Not anymore it doesn't.

[pacz360]

Not really comparable m8 dyspo still would need the strength to even hurt hit let send goku ass back in their fight

UNLESS.............. This is Dragon Ball Super logic we're working with, with tournament rules and martial arts dynamics.

Let go of your preconceived notions of how fighting works back in the old material, because they aren't in play right now.

Taking a hit hurts now regardless of who did it, which is something power-scaling enthusiasts need to factor in. Power scaling is no longer entirely linear and predictable. More examples include Slim Buu distracting Goku enough with his rapid-fire Ki blasts to get him in a punch combo before pushing him out of bounds, Roshi threw down with Goku in a pure exchange of blows, and fighters like Magetta and Murichim having exchanged hits with the likes of Toppo.

And we have examples of lavender and co. Not being hurt by gohan crews attacks
Slim buu was able to trade blows with base goku thanks him training so trading blows with him and using that strategie isnt suprising to me
Dyspo shown multiple times last episode hes isnt a slouch in strength especially when he was fighting hit and ssjg goku hell goku himself stated u11 fighters were tough after getting push back by dyspo
So i dont see dyspo lacking in strength
Krillin pushing gohan out cause he blinded him and took advantage of it immediately
Dyspo traded blows with hit when both were serious before kunshi grabbed hit

[pacz360]

Here we go again with the whole downplaying of characters that were obviously portrayed to be powerhouses. If Dyspo could send both Hit and ritual form Goku flying back while causing them notable pain, it's pretty clear that he would at the very least absolutely wreck everyone from the Buu saga. Buuhan, SSJ Vegetto, Buutenks, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), SSJ3 Gotenks, or whoever, would all get one-shotted. Sure speed may be a factor here, but strength/power-wise Dyspo should still be leagues above anything the top-tiers of the Buu saga could only dream of.

We're seriously years past the Buu saga, and sagas and sagas beyond it, I'm not sure why people still think power levels from said time period are even relevant. I get that characters like Buu and SSJ Vegetto were top contenders for a long time before Super and the new movies, but it's strongly implied that's simply not really the case anymore.

So how u look at ssjg being back into the fray

[Doctor.]

I'm gonna make it absolutely clear right now: Power =/= Performance. Not anymore it doesn't.

I agree with this. It's why I never had any problem with future Trunks being able to block Black's attacks for a bit, since he's a much more skilled sword user than Black is. This isn't the way Dragon Ball Z handled things and it would be rightfully ridiculed there, but DBS has established since the start that power is no longer the most important thing anymore.

[ekrolo2]

I'm gonna make it absolutely clear right now: Power =/= Performance. Not anymore it doesn't.

I agree with this. It's why I never had any problem with future Trunks being able to block Black's attacks for a bit, since he's a much more skilled sword user than Black is. This isn't the way Dragon Ball Z handled things and it would be rightfully ridiculed there, but DBS has established since the start that power is no longer the most important thing anymore.

I'd sooner say it's the late Z movie system where characters pointlessly hold back so the story in question can have them power up/transform later to maximize the wow factor.

Supers also really inconsistent abou it's proposed system when some fights seem to apply it while others are classic Z power up fests.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm gonna make it absolutely clear right now: Power =/= Performance. Not anymore it doesn't.

I agree with this. It's why I never had any problem with future Trunks being able to block Black's attacks for a bit, since he's a much more skilled sword user than Black is. This isn't the way Dragon Ball Z handled things and it would be rightfully ridiculed there, but DBS has established since the start that power is no longer the most important thing anymore.

I'd sooner say it's the late Z movie system where characters pointlessly hold back so the story in question can have them power up/transform later to maximize the wow factor.

Supers also really inconsistent abou it's proposed system when some fights seem to apply it while others are classic Z power up fests.

I will admit, sometimes it's on and off. Often times, the classic system is prominent when a character's strength is specifically called on and noted in the narrative, such as Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F.

However, in later arcs like the Universe 6/7 Tournament and [Universal Survival Arc, where we have tournament settings where different fighters with different skills are pitted against each other with actual rules in place, the importance of skill, strategy, and special abilities grows in order to bring back more of the martial arts mentality that the original Dragon Ball had.

[Marlowe89]

I'd like to mention that Dyspo's strength is probably heavily modified by his speed, similar to The Flash. That would certainly explain why he wasn't doing so well after getting restrained by Aragney -- perhaps he's just not particularly strong when not using his ability.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku is not god level whatsoever unless he is in SSG or SSB. He is still VERY strong now in his base, SS1, SS2, & SS3 levels. His base as well as Vegeta's are both way past Fat Boo in the Boo arc and likely past SSJ3 in the boo arc as well. The fact that he goes to SSG and SSB while still accessing his normal forms should be a clear indication that he's using god ki in those 2 forms otherwise he would never be able to use 1, 2, and 3 anymore.

A weaker-than-usual Super Saiyan Gohan, #18, Piccolo, and Good Buu all had (more or less, let's leave Piccolo aside) better feats than Goku's base form in the latest episodes. The contention is highly debatable.

... It's become kind of a leitmotiv in this thread, hasn't it?

A base Goku that's not even using his full strength in base mode and messing around.

Again, highly debatable to say the least: if that was the case base Goku needed to heavily suppress himself already to face Super Saiyan Gohan, not turn Super Saiyan - and become the equivalent of Super Vegito - and then suppress himself comparatively some thousands of times to a level below his base (to handle a Gohan who's supposedly weaker than a regular Super Saiyan in the Buu arc).
#18's strength also exceeds Goku on an occasion in which he's completely cornered and has no reason not to get serious, his legs break under Tupper's weight and he's in visible pain. Goku's base form is depicted as helpless, while Tupper is helpless against #18.

Excluding the Gotenks' outlier, which was meant to reflect a time in which Goku's base was interpreted as comparable in power to the Super Saiyan God, Goku's regular base post-retcon could easily be intended to be around his Buu saga self, and just a notch or two stronger.

[supercat]

Theories and more theories are all I'm seeing here. Until we get actual confirmation that it was Dyspo's speed exclusively that helped him perform so well, we're left with nothing more than fan speculations that don't really add up to much.

Like I said in an earlier post, Dyspo should be leagues above all the top contenders of the Buu saga, with or without his ability to move quickly. I mean it probably does contribute quite a bit to his success in battle, but just going off of strength, he should still be able to effortlessly humiliate the likes of SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan, as would most of the other Pride Troopers.

Power (not factoring speed):
Hit: 100
Dyspo: 50
Dyspo (fast moving): 100 - 150
SSJ Vegetto: .5
Buuhan: .1
Super Buu: too low to even compare

So basically, Dyspo's speed giving him a 2-3x boost seems quite acceptable.

[pacz360]

A weaker-than-usual Super Saiyan Gohan, #18, Piccolo, and Good Buu all had (more or less, let's leave Piccolo aside) better feats than Goku's base form in the latest episodes. The contention is highly debatable.

... It's become kind of a leitmotiv in this thread, hasn't it?

A base Goku that's not even using his full strength in base mode and messing around.

Again, highly debatable to say the least: if that was the case base Goku needed to heavily suppress himself already to face Super Saiyan Gohan, not turn Super Saiyan - and become the equivalent of Super Vegito - and then suppress himself comparatively some thousands of times to a level below his base (to handle a Gohan who's supposedly weaker than a regular Super Saiyan in the Buu arc).
#18's strength also exceeds Goku on an occasion in which he's completely cornered and has no reason not to get serious, his legs break under Tupper's weight and he's in visible pain. However, Goku's base form is depicted as helpless, while Tupper is helpless against #18.

Excluding the Gotenks' outlier, which was meant to reflect a time in which Goku's base was interpreted as comparable in power to the Super Saiyan God, Goku's regular base post-retcon could easily be intended to be around his Buu saga self, and just a notch or two stronger.

No base goku is till far stronger than his z counterpart
There's no recton quit pushing it
Base goku kept up with golden Frieza right before there final clash
Base goku trading blows with slim buu who gotten stronger
Base goku surviving sidra energy ball long enough without getting instant killed
Base goku is far stronger than his buu saga counterpart trying to say he's around that level is retarded ssj3 gotenks is getting stomped was referenced in future trunks saga so it isn't a outlier

[LowRyder2005]

A base Goku that's not even using his full strength in base mode and messing around.

Again, highly debatable to say the least: if that was the case base Goku needed to heavily suppress himself already to face Super Saiyan Gohan, not turn Super Saiyan - and become the equivalent of Super Vegito - and then suppress himself comparatively some thousands of times to a level below his base (to handle a Gohan who's supposedly weaker than a regular Super Saiyan in the Buu arc).
#18's strength also exceeds Goku on an occasion in which he's completely cornered and has no reason not to get serious, his legs break under Tupper's weight and he's in visible pain. However, Goku's base form is depicted as helpless, while Tupper is helpless against #18.

Excluding the Gotenks' outlier, which was meant to reflect a time in which Goku's base was interpreted as comparable in power to the Super Saiyan God, Goku's regular base post-retcon could easily be intended to be around his Buu saga self, and just a notch or two stronger.

No base goku is till far stronger than his z counterpart
There's no recton quit pushing it
Base goku kept up with golden Frieza right before there final clash
Base goku trading blows with slim buu who gotten stronger
Base goku surviving sidra energy ball long enough without getting instant killed
Base goku is far stronger than his buu saga counterpart trying to say he's around that level is retarded ssj3 gotenks is getting stomped was referenced in future trunks saga so it isn't a outlier

Oh, that's absolutely not the type of post I'm going to give any kind of reply to.

[pacz360]

Again, highly debatable to say the least: if that was the case base Goku needed to heavily suppress himself already to face Super Saiyan Gohan, not turn Super Saiyan - and become the equivalent of Super Vegito - and then suppress himself comparatively some thousands of times to a level below his base (to handle a Gohan who's supposedly weaker than a regular Super Saiyan in the Buu arc).
#18's strength also exceeds Goku on an occasion in which he's completely cornered and has no reason not to get serious, his legs break under Tupper's weight and he's in visible pain. However, Goku's base form is depicted as helpless, while Tupper is helpless against #18.

Excluding the Gotenks' outlier, which was meant to reflect a time in which Goku's base was interpreted as comparable in power to the Super Saiyan God, Goku's regular base post-retcon could easily be intended to be around his Buu saga self, and just a notch or two stronger.

No base goku is till far stronger than his z counterpart
There's no recton quit pushing it
Base goku kept up with golden Frieza right before there final clash
Base goku trading blows with slim buu who gotten stronger
Base goku surviving sidra energy ball long enough without getting instant killed
Base goku is far stronger than his buu saga counterpart trying to say he's around that level is retarded ssj3 gotenks is getting stomped was referenced in future trunks saga so it isn't a outlier

Oh, that's absolutely not the type of post I'm going to give any kind of reply to.

Oh plz it's not the worst thing you heard especially on this site or anywhere else

[ekrolo2]

I agree with this. It's why I never had any problem with future Trunks being able to block Black's attacks for a bit, since he's a much more skilled sword user than Black is. This isn't the way Dragon Ball Z handled things and it would be rightfully ridiculed there, but DBS has established since the start that power is no longer the most important thing anymore.

I'd sooner say it's the late Z movie system where characters pointlessly hold back so the story in question can have them power up/transform later to maximize the wow factor.

Supers also really inconsistent abou it's proposed system when some fights seem to apply it while others are classic Z power up fests.

I will admit, sometimes it's on and off. Often times, the classic system is prominent when a character's strength is specifically called on and noted in the narrative, such as Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F.

However, in later arcs like the Universe 6/7 Tournament and [Universal Survival Arc, where we have tournament settings where different fighters with different skills are pitted against each other with actual rules in place, the importance of skill, strategy, and special abilities grows in order to bring back more of the martial arts mentality that the original Dragon Ball had.

It's not even present much there. Goku and Vegeta beat Frost and Canmbba by overpowering them, Hit almost loses to the same thing. Boo overpowers Basil, Goku oveepowers Toppo and Bergamo, the he and Vegeta overpower all of U9...

There are exceptions of course but the "new system" is vastly over shadowed by Z power trumps all.