Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[VegettoEX]

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[LowRyder2005]

No base goku is till far stronger than his z counterpart
There's no recton quit pushing it
Base goku kept up with golden Frieza right before there final clash
Base goku trading blows with slim buu who gotten stronger
Base goku surviving sidra energy ball long enough without getting instant killed
Base goku is far stronger than his buu saga counterpart trying to say he's around that level is retarded ssj3 gotenks is getting stomped was referenced in future trunks saga so it isn't a outlier

Oh, that's absolutely not the type of post I'm going to give any kind of reply to.

Oh plz it's not the worst thing you heard especially on this site or anywhere else

Other than a couple of glaring "netiquette 101-level" problems with your general reasoning (or, better yet, "general problems with your reasoning, period"), I've seen people getting temporary banned for less, now that I think 'bout it. On this very site. Jus' whaddayaknow, yo?

By the way, re-reading your previous post, it looks like you should also read the dictionary definition of an "outlier". Might help your understanding of the reply the next time someone else uses the term more than extrapolating meanings from the context (consequentially deducing it would mean something akin to "non-canonical filler y'all need to disregard", which is just pretty lulzy in itself).

I'd sooner say it's the late Z movie system where characters pointlessly hold back so the story in question can have them power up/transform later to maximize the wow factor.

Supers also really inconsistent abou it's proposed system when some fights seem to apply it while others are classic Z power up fests.

I will admit, sometimes it's on and off. Often times, the classic system is prominent when a character's strength is specifically called on and noted in the narrative, such as Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F.

However, in later arcs like the Universe 6/7 Tournament and [Universal Survival Arc, where we have tournament settings where different fighters with different skills are pitted against each other with actual rules in place, the importance of skill, strategy, and special abilities grows in order to bring back more of the martial arts mentality that the original Dragon Ball had.

It's not even present much there. Goku and Vegeta beat Frost and Canmbba by overpowering them, Hit almost loses to the same thing. Boo overpowers Basil, Goku oveepowers Toppo and Bergamo, the he and Vegeta overpower all of U9...

There are exceptions of course but the "new system" is vastly over shadowed by Z power trumps all.

Plot convenience, in general, and a disregard of establishing real consistency are the real causes of such a dissonance. "Gimmicky" tactics against brute force are mostly a way to diversify the action and will work unless the plot calls for it (while before they simply wouldn't, at least most of the time).

What I think should be clear, nevertheless, is that this kind of plot-ingrained mechanic started definitely around April, or the time the recruitment episode started, with Krillin's paving the way for it. The most we had before, even in Super, were two fighters who were almost impervious to conventional damage (Magetta and Botamo), but that at most would bring forth an impasse against physically superior fighters. I'm pretty sure every other fight followed the rules of the trademark, DB-esque, phenomenology of how combat was supposed to unfold in Z.

[Marlowe89]

Missed this post from earlier:

I do agree that SSG should be a power-up over the other SS forms, but what is suggested in that timeline is very different to what is actually being shown and told to us as viewers of the show.

To be completely frank, that's not really true at all. What was actually shown to us as viewers of the show is that Goku (in his base or even one of his first three Super Saiyan forms) struggled against characters we know for an absolute fact are beneath God tier, with some of those examples actually definitively establishing themselves as situations where Goku couldn't feasibly have been "holding back" -- the quoted phrase being an honestly flimsy argument that certain posters are so quick to rely upon whenever their own power-scaling views are questioned, in my own opinion at least.

What was actually told to us as viewers, at least prior to Super Saiyan God's reintroduction, is that Goku was demonstrating "the power of the gods" (or Kami no Chikara in Japanese) only upon transforming into Blue, the earliest known use of that term being from Beerus to describe SSG Goku's level of strength while they were fighting in space. This doesn't even include the countless other descriptions and examples within the series; most notably, the narrator directly stating that Super Saiyan Blue exceeded even Super Saiyan God in power (implicitly suggesting none of the other forms exceeded it) or better yet, Whis's own comments concerning Goku and Vegeta's strength while in base. It doesn't even intuitively make sense that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 would surpass Super Saiyan God in the first place, but it's also not really a logically coherent view when you take the available evidence into account either. It simply doesn't hold up anymore.

All of these points have been discussed and regurgitated so many times within this thread that it's basically a consensus among most of us that Goku's strength from base all the way to Super Saiyan 3 doesn't really cross the Super Saiyan God threshold, even if a lot of us still disagree on arguably smaller matters (such as whether base Goku is stronger than Gotenks, for example) -- the whole notion is essentially outdated at this point, based solely on comments from BoG that are wholly divorced from the current narrative in the show as well as everything else that consistently suggests otherwise. Additionally, the referenced supplementary scan is official material for the Super anime, so it certainly has precedence over any fanon interpretation.

[JazzMazz]

Missed this post from earlier:

I do agree that SSG should be a power-up over the other SS forms, but what is suggested in that timeline is very different to what is actually being shown and told to us as viewers of the show.

To be completely frank, that's not really true at all. What was actually shown to us as viewers of the show is that Goku (in his base or even one of his first three Super Saiyan forms) struggled against characters we know for an absolute fact are beneath God tier, with some of those examples actually definitively establishing themselves as situations where Goku couldn't feasibly have been "holding back" -- the quoted phrase being an honestly flimsy argument that certain posters are so quick to rely upon whenever their own power-scaling views are questioned, in my own opinion at least.

What was actually told to us as viewers, at least prior to Super Saiyan God's reintroduction, is that Goku was demonstrating "the power of the gods" (or Kami no Chikara in Japanese) only upon transforming into Blue, the earliest known use of that term being from Beerus to describe SSG Goku's level of strength while they were fighting in space. This doesn't even include the countless other descriptions and examples within the series; most notably, the narrator directly stating that Super Saiyan Blue exceeded even Super Saiyan God in power (implicitly suggesting none of the other forms exceeded it) or better yet, Whis's own comments concerning Goku and Vegeta's strength while in base. It doesn't even intuitively make sense that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 would surpass Super Saiyan God in the first place, but it's also not really a logically coherent view when you take the available evidence into account either. It simply doesn't hold up anymore.

All of these points have been discussed and regurgitated so many times within this thread that it's basically a consensus among most of us that Goku's strength from base all the way to Super Saiyan 3 doesn't really cross the Super Saiyan God threshold, even if a lot of us still disagree on arguably smaller matters (such as whether base Goku is stronger than Gotenks, for example) -- the whole notion is essentially outdated at this point, based solely on comments from BoG that are wholly divorced from the current narrative in the show as well as everything else that consistently suggests otherwise. Additionally, the referenced supplementary scan is official material for the Super anime, so it certainly has precedence over any fanon interpretation.

I will take this into account for later discussion. Thank you very much Marlowe89. For reference I think it's worth posting here just to be 100% clear about how Goku can go SSG as explained by Goku in episode 24 of the dub:"I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God and then tapped into that power on my own and is this is the Super Saiyan level of that."
Just to clear up any possible confusion about why Goku could go SSG(it was literally explained 80 episodes before-hand).
So the discussion now is that Goku could go SSG, he simply chose not to.

[Bullza]

Yeah I think that both he and Vegeta learned how to become Super Saiyan God's when they were thrown in Whis' staff in that dimension filled with God Ki.

That was surely the whole purpose of that being done in the first place. They didn't really explain how they learnt to do it specifically but I don't suppose it really matters.

Strange the form wasn't used ever since then up until just last week though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Yeah I think that both he and Vegeta learned how to become Super Saiyan God's when they were thrown in Whis' staff in that dimension filled with God Ki.

That was surely the whole purpose of that being done in the first place. They didn't really explain how they learnt to do it specifically but I don't suppose it really matters.

Strange the form wasn't used ever since then up until just last week though.

I've said it plenty of times before, but I'll repeat it myself.

My current headcanon is that learning to tap into SSG on their own was the key to Goku and Vegeta using SSB. By going SS instead of SSG, they get SSB, a form that has higher power, speed, Ki control, etc., all around than SSG, and only lacks in reduced stamina compared to its predecessor form of FPSS. A lot of fights beforehand have either required using full-power right off the bat, or have been brief enough to not have to worry about protracted fatigue.

[Hugo Boss]

I'd like to mention that Dyspo's strength is probably heavily modified by his speed, similar to The Flash. That would certainly explain why he wasn't doing so well after getting restrained by Aragney -- perhaps he's just not particularly strong when not using his ability.

Nice call. I remember watching an episode in which The Flash is clearly outmatched in raw strength by a "iron man", who he casually koed once he punched him apropriatedly using the speed of sound. For performance matters and considering his battle experience, I think Dyspo's ability overall is a little above SSG's, explaining why Goku switched between it and SSB.

[Helios518]

I had a couple head-to-head battle ideas. I would be curious if people come up with the same answers as me.

[spoiler]2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit[/spoiler]

2 - #17 hasn't shown any feats that put him in current God tier. So for right now, SSJRage Trunks stomps.

4 - Same reason as 2 except True Golden Freeza is stronger than SSJRage Trunks. So Freeza stomps.

6 -Considering Dyspo's abilities forced Goku to do the "instantly transform to Blue" thing and Dyspo was still on the winning side despite that, I'm going to say Dyspo wins 7/10 times.

7 - TG Freeza was said to be equals with SSJB Goku while Toppo took a Kamehameha point blank, only making him complain about his uniform getting scratched and on top of that, was powering up with SSJBKK Goku. Toppo wins 8/10.

8 - Hit adapts better than Black and was said to have gotten stronger since EP71/2. So w/o killing techniques, Hit wins 7/10 because Black may just adapt to time-skip & get stronger if Hit gets carried away (fat chance unless you're Goku). W/ killing techniques, Hit would shock-wave kill Black before he can adapt. Hit wins 11/10. I seriously don't know how Black was going to fight Hit without fusing.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah I think that both he and Vegeta learned how to become Super Saiyan God's when they were thrown in Whis' staff in that dimension filled with God Ki.

That was surely the whole purpose of that being done in the first place. They didn't really explain how they learnt to do it specifically but I don't suppose it really matters.

Strange the form wasn't used ever since then up until just last week though.

I've said it plenty of times before, but I'll repeat it myself.

My current headcanon is that learning to tap into SSG on their own was the key to Goku and Vegeta using SSB. By going SS instead of SSG, they get SSB, a form that has higher power, speed, Ki control, etc., all around than SSG, and only lacks in reduced stamina compared to its predecessor form of FPSS. A lot of fights beforehand have either required using full-power right off the bat, or have been brief enough to not have to worry about protracted fatigue.

I've also had another theory very similar to that.

The anime does all but state that Vegeta attained the power of Super Saiyan God while training with Goku and Whis. When Vegeta turns into a SSJB in Episode 27, Goku comments that unlike himself who needed the strength of other Saiyans to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God, Vegeta did it on his own with his own power. That would strongly imply Vegeta, at some point after Goku joined him to train with Whis, simply brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God.

Vegeta also got a 6 month head-start when it came to training with Whis. And when Goku meets up with Vegeta on Beerus' Planet with Whis, Goku is impressed with how much stronger Vegeta has grown since he last saw him, saying Vegeta might even be stronger than him now. So Vegeta by that point was certainly quite close to reaching the echelon of strength needed to become a Super Saiyan God at your own devices. Although, it wasn't enough for Vegeta to be possibly as strong or stronger than Goku when Goku fought Beerus. Vegeta needs the raw power of Super Saiyan God to become Super Saiyan Blue, and the power of Super Saiyan God innately has God ki. Goku himself states that when he explained the mechanics of how he attained Super Saiyan Blue when he transformed into the form in front of Freeza. Otherwise when Goku arrived on Beerus' planet to train with Vegeta, Vegeta would have already become a Super Saiyan Blue by that point, given Goku's comment about how impressed with how much stronger Vegeta has grown since he last saw him. But still wasn't a SSJB yet. Vegeta most likely became a SSJG while either training in Whis' staff, where Vegeta was exposed to God ki for the first time, or shortly after that.

It would actually work in a thematic sense given Vegeta often brute forces his way to new levels of strength, despite the previously stated criteria need to achieved that power in the first place. Like how he became a SSJ despite not having a pure heart.

[supercat]

I had a couple head-to-head battle ideas. I would be curious if people come up with the same answers as me.

1) SSBerserker Kale vs. Ultimate Gohan

2) SSRage Trunks vs. Android 17

3) SSGod Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan

4) True Golden Frieza vs. Android 17

5) Piccolo vs. Zamasu

6) SSGod Vegeta vs. Dyspo

7) True Golden Frieza vs. Toppo

8 ) SSRose Goku Black vs. Hit

My thoughts:
[spoiler]1) SSBerserker Kale because I believe Goku was trying harder as SSBlue against her.

2) SSRage Trunks since he was able to keep up with SSBlue Goku at his peak, and Goku said he was holding back against #17.

3) SSGod Goku, as I think Ultimate Gohan and SSBerserker Kale are around SS3 Tier.

4) True Golden Frieza because I would put Android 17 with Gohan in the same tier.

5) Piccolo, probably, because he beat SS2 Gohan and Zamasu lost to SS2 Goku.

6) Dyspo would win, unless Vegeta used SSGod-Blue.

7) Toppo would win, but it would be close. I would love to see this fight in the anime.

8 ) SSRose Goku Black by a hair, based on power. Hit would win because of his abilities though.[/spoiler]

1. Both Gohan and Kale should be comparable to SSB Goku, but the difference is, Goku got seemed to have struggled a lot more against Kale. Not only that, Kale appeared to have exerted little to no effort against Goku, so she would wreck this new and improved low SSB-tier Ultimate Gohan.

2. Both Android 17 and SSB Goku were holding back, but if anything, it seemed like Goku was the one putting in a bit more effort. I have Android 17 around low SSB-tier, around half a notch or so below SSB Goku. So Trunks probably takes this after a really good fight where a good portion of it would be evenly matched. However, it's probably worth noting that if Trunks tires out even a little, Android 17 would immediately secure his victory.

3.

4. If True Golden Frieza is on par with SSB Goku at full power, then he'd probably win. While Android 17 is presumably close to range himself, I don't quite see him being able to rival someone like True Golden Frieza yet. Could be close though. RoF Golden Frieza may be a better match for Android 17. And if it were the tired out version of RoF Golden Frieza, Android 17 would probably take it with a moderate amount of difficulty. Either way, Android 17 is far far above anything from the Buu saga, including SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan, so still an impressive jump in power for him.

SSB Goku: 250
True Golden Frieza: 250
Android 17: 235 - 240
RoF Golden Frieza: 235 - 245
RoF Golden Frieza (tired): 185
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 0.6
Buuhan: 0.2
Super Buu: too low to even compare at this point

SSB Goku = True Golden Frieza > (only by a little) RoF Golden Frieza > / = Android 17 > RoF Golden Frieza (tired) > Final Form Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First Form Frieza = SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu

5. Future Zamasu is presumably low SSB-tier so Piccolo probably gets wrecked without a chance at all. Present Zamasu did pretty well against a new and improved SSJ2 Goku, who at that point should be far above any of the top contenders from the Buu saga, so Piccolo again loses. At best, I have Piccolo in the whole Buuhan to SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) range. Maybe somewhere in the middle to high range of that. Both Zamasus could probably wreck anyone from the Buu saga without even trying, while Piccolo could probably only barely pull off the same feat.

Future Zamasu: 220
Present Zamasu: 50
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga): 0.6
Piccolo: 0.5 - 0.6
Buuhan: 0.2
Super Buu: again, too low to even compare

Future Zamasu >>> Present Zamasu >>>>> SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Piccolo >> Buuhan >>> Super Buu

[Lord Beerus]

- Caway was nothing compared to Roshi. Roshi stopped her ki (magic) infused trident/spear like it was nothing his his regular form. Caway then shit herself when Roshi bulked up and eliminated herself out of fear of what Roshi would do.
- Roshi used the Mafuba to seal and eliminate Dercori. Dercori's power was mainly to do with illusions so she didn't actually fight.
- Ganos power ups into a new form, and at first, Roshi schools him by dodging his attacks. But then Ganos keeps powering up and starts beating around Roshi.
- Roshi bulks up and hit Ganos with a Kamehameha and he is out instantly

[Animelover5487]

Ok this is a serious powerscaling problem. Base Ganos held his own against Base Goku but yet in his transformed state he's weaker than Base Roshi? Wtf?

[Zamasu55]

Roshi might even be First form Freeza (Namek) level.
Either that or Ganos is weaker than Saiyan arc Vegeta.

[Marlowe89]

Ok this is a serious powerscaling problem. Base Ganos held his own against Base Goku but yet in his transformed state he's weaker than Base Roshi? Wtf?

If by "held his own" you actually meant to say "ran away", then, uh, yeah. Sure.

[Krillin1994]

Roshi might even be First form Freeza (Namek) level.
Either that or Ganos is weaker than Saiyan arc Vegeta.

We need to consider everyone is on their home planets gravity, maybe earthlings are at an advantage here due to gravity.

[LowRyder2005]

Roshi might even be First form Freeza (Namek) level.
Either that or Ganos is weaker than Saiyan arc Vegeta.

Well, since Ganos' strength can apparently fluctuate a lot, one could assume that if he doesn't fight for some time he might fall back to his "weaker" native level that Roshi can handle?

Sounds pretty convenient, but if anything it could make more sense than what was shown; Ganos should've/could've entered the tournament at some gigantic, unstoppable level by exploiting his ability against someone in his universe, instead of peaking at the level of the likes of good ol' Roshi. I'm tempted to bump him up a little myself, though.

[Animelover5487]

Ok this is a serious powerscaling problem. Base Ganos held his own against Base Goku but yet in his transformed state he's weaker than Base Roshi? Wtf?

If by "held his own" you actually meant to say "ran away", then, uh, yeah. Sure.

Ganos blocked a lot of Goku's attacks and was able to mildly inconvenience him.

[Marlowe89]

Ganos blocked a lot of Goku's attacks and was able to mildly inconvenience him.

Again, semantically-speaking anyway: I'd agree that Ganos "held his own" in the sense that he clearly wasn't immediately stomped by Goku, although I'd say that really only reiterates my own point about base Goku's strength obviously not being over a hundred times stronger than whatever it was in Z. Ganos was still portrayed to be significantly weaker though -- that's exactly why he decided to retreat after realizing that his attacks were ultimately doing nothing to Goku aside from being a minor nuisance at best.

There's still a (probably considerable) gap between Roshi and base Goku, it's just not oceans and oceans apart as people believed and the episode did provide confirmation that Roshi exceeded his previous limit anyway. I'm afraid I don't see the issue here.

Roshi might even be First form Freeza (Namek) level.
Either that or Ganos is weaker than Saiyan arc Vegeta.

I'd say the first assessment is reasonable. If Roshi is going to compete at this level he'd need to be at least somewhere in that general ballpark.

[BlueBasilisk]

I wonder how much Roshi was held back in the past by his own mindset that his time was up? I've always felt like he could have given King Piccolo a fight and maybe even beaten him if he'd used his Max Power form, but as far as I can recall he never tried.

[precita]

I'd say Roshi is on Radditz level now, maybe Nappa at most. People are being bizarrely generous with the power scaling here, Roshi technically did not fight a single fighter until Ganos. He beat a weak parrot with one wave, he froze the robot guy, the first girl ran off the stage, and the second was trapped by the technique.

Ganos for all we know could be on Nappa's level.