Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Anyway considering the downplaying here is disgusting so heres my tier list
Above blue level:
Jiren
New form goku
Ssjb kk x10 goku
Toppo full power
Current blue level:
Top tier:Ssjb goku,ssjb vegeta,golden freeza, base toppo,Hit
Mid tier blue level:ultimate gohan,17,kale,dyspo,ribrianne amped bergamo
Ssjg to Low blue tier:current ssjg goku,Obuni,
Current powered up base and ssj forms 1-3
Ssj2/3 tier:
Ssj3 goku
Ssj2 vegeta
Ssj2 goku
Piccolo
Ssj2 caulifla
Maji
Ssj 1 tier:
Ssj goku
Ssj vegeta
Ssj caulifla
Ssj cabba
Ssj kale
Slim buu
Magetta
Khaseral
Bergamo damage soak in the beginning
Kunshee(durabilitiy should put him higher)
Base tier above ssj3 gotenks to unkown extent
Base goku
Base vegeta
Bergamo
Base gohan
Base cabba
Base caulifla
Rozie
Unknown at the moment tier
FF Frost
FF Freeza
Lavender
Basil
18
Ganos
Roshi
Decori
Caway
Narapapa
Murichim
Vikal
Krillin

How is Dyspo mid SSB tier when Hit was trolling him after he learned how Dyspo's technique works?

Dyspo still was able to hurt Hit multiple times during their brawl

Only because Hit didn't know about Dyspo's technique (while Dyspo knew about Time-Skip). Dyspo is SSG level, not SSB level.

[The gr]

They are close in power, there are just too many characters who have showcased they're above the base Saiyans while at the same time not showing enough for me to put them above android 18. So there's a huge list of characters between her and Kuririn when the gap between all of those characters is relatively small.

Ganos is a bit arbitrary but Roshi did say he'd become dangerous for Goku, plus he was U4's leader. He's certainly not as weak as everyone is saying just because he lost to Roshi, they made it a point that he's much stronger.

just my thought on #18/krillin power,I always see them close to each other but you have point. Ganos got defeated by a full power kamehameha of Roshi,just because your the leader that doesn't mean your the strongest,Roshi was only concern because his power is increasing to high level either that or Roshi is really close to #18

[Doctor.]

They are close in power, there are just too many characters who have showcased they're above the base Saiyans while at the same time not showing enough for me to put them above android 18. So there's a huge list of characters between her and Kuririn when the gap between all of those characters is relatively small.

Ganos is a bit arbitrary but Roshi did say he'd become dangerous for Goku, plus he was U4's leader. He's certainly not as weak as everyone is saying just because he lost to Roshi, they made it a point that he's much stronger.

just my thought on #18/krillin power,I always see them close to each other but you have point. Ganos got defeated by a full power kamehameha of Roshi,just because your the leader that doesn't mean your the strongest,Roshi was only concern because his power is increasing to high level either that or Roshi is really close to #18

Roshi's Kamehameha took away all his life force. Goku managed to hurt Raditz with a normal Kamehameha that didn't harm him and he broke both his arms doing a Kamehameha to harm Merged Zamasu. There's precedent for Kamehamehas to hurt stronger opponents. Imagine how powerful a Kamehameha that kills you is. Again, Ganos was stated to be much stronger than Roshi.

[pacz360]

How is Dyspo mid SSB tier when Hit was trolling him after he learned how Dyspo's technique works?

Dyspo still was able to hurt Hit multiple times during their brawl

Only because Hit didn't know about Dyspo's technique (while Dyspo knew about Time-Skip). Dyspo is SSG level, not SSB level.

Doesnt change dyspo trading blows with hit during their fight even factoring speed boost here

[TheDipDap1234]

I think krillin & #18 should be close in term of power meanwhile Caway is weaker than Comfrey because he tanked the z fighter attack & Hysopp/chappil could be relative to the trio & why Ganos is above #18?

I will do this list until mess of a tournaments finish

They are close in power, there are just too many characters who have showcased they're above the base Saiyans while at the same time not showing enough for me to put them above android 18. So there's a huge list of characters between her and Kuririn when the gap between all of those characters is relatively small.

Ganos is a bit arbitrary but Roshi did say he'd become dangerous for Goku, plus he was U4's leader. He's certainly not as weak as everyone is saying just because he lost to Roshi, they made it a point that he's much stronger.

When was it ever said that Ganos is the leader of Universe 4?

[Doctor.]

I think krillin & #18 should be close in term of power meanwhile Caway is weaker than Comfrey because he tanked the z fighter attack & Hysopp/chappil could be relative to the trio & why Ganos is above #18?

I will do this list until mess of a tournaments finish

They are close in power, there are just too many characters who have showcased they're above the base Saiyans while at the same time not showing enough for me to put them above android 18. So there's a huge list of characters between her and Kuririn when the gap between all of those characters is relatively small.

Ganos is a bit arbitrary but Roshi did say he'd become dangerous for Goku, plus he was U4's leader. He's certainly not as weak as everyone is saying just because he lost to Roshi, they made it a point that he's much stronger.

When was it ever said that Ganos is the leader of Universe 4?

Who else would it be?

[The gr]

Roshi's Kamehameha took away all his life force. Goku managed to hurt Raditz with a normal Kamehameha that didn't harm him and he broke both his arms doing a Kamehameha to harm Merged Zamasu. There's precedent for Kamehamehas to hurt stronger opponents. Imagine how powerful a Kamehameha that kills you is. Again, Ganos was stated to be much stronger than Roshi.

Oh I didn't think of that,your right Ganos is stated to be stronger than Roshi so that settle the debate here

[ZombieVito]

Since everyone's doing a list, I may as well do one too. A lot of these placements are arbitrary, especially towards the lower tiers. Characters in bold are for reference.

[spoiler]Tier A:
Jiren
SSBKK Goku
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Freeza / Toppo
Hit
SSBKKx2 Goku (Champa arc)
SSG Goku / Dyspo

Tier B:
Berserker Kale
Freeza
Ultimate Gohan
SS Vegetto (Boo arc)
Android #17
SS3 Goku
Obuni (U10)

Tier C:
Kunshi (U11)
SS2 Goku / SS2 Vegeta
SS Kale
SS2 Caulifla
Mr. Boo
Ribrianne (U2)
Frost
Piccolo

Tier D:
Magetta
Maji Kayo (U3)
Kahseral (U11)
Rubalt (U10)
Nink (U4)
SS Goku / SS Vegeta
SS Caulifla
SS Cabba
Perfect Cell
Bergamo
Basil
Lavenda
Murichim (U10)
Napapa (U10)

Tier E:
Powered-up Ganos (U4)
Narirama (U3)
Android 18
Majora (U4)
Kakunsa (U2)
Shosa (U4)
Jimeze (U2)
Cocotte (U11)
Tupper (U11)
Cheppil (U9)
Zoiray (U11)
Kettol (U11)
Base Goku (fuck you) / Base Vegeta / Base Gohan
Base Caulifla
Base Cabba
Rozie (U2)
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Ganos (U4)
Vuon (U11)
SS Goku (Namek)
Brianne / Su Roas / Sanka Ku (U2)
Nigrisshi (U3)
Darkori (U4)
Hysopp (U9)
Hop (U9)
Roselle (U9)
Roshi
The Preecho (U3)
50% Freeza
Vikal (U2)
Caway (U4)
Lilibeu (U10)
Murisam (U10)
Mechiop (U10)
Oregano (U9)
Dium (U10)
Comfrey (U9)
Sorrel (U9)
Base Kale[/spoiler]

Fuck, those lower tiers are messy.

But how do you explain base Goku and Vegeta being that low? They should be tier B.

Are people really going to ignore Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks?

There's also Freeza. He beat Napapa who gave SSJ Caulifla a little trouble. How do you explain that when Freeza should be weaker than Base Caulifla.

[Bullza]

Ganos was stronger than Roshi but wasn't Roshi stronger at the very end when he surpassed his limits or some such?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ganos was stronger than Roshi but wasn't Roshi stronger at the very end when he surpassed his limits or some such?

He did try to break his limits and used a Max Power Kamehameha, the strongest variation of the move seen short of Goku's Full-Power Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu. Roshi also expended enough energy that he was knocked out cold and Goku and Krillin seriously feared that he might've died.

I'm not surprised that it pushed Ganos out.

[Li'l Lemmy]

But how do you explain base Goku and Vegeta being that low? They should be tier B.

Are people really going to ignore Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks?

I think we've gotten /some/ information since then that contradicts that.

There's also Freeza. He beat Napapa who gave SSJ Caulifla a little trouble. How do you explain that when Freeza should be weaker than Base Caulifla.

Why would Freeza be weaker than base Caulifla? O_o

[ZombieVito]

But how do you explain base Goku and Vegeta being that low? They should be tier B.

Are people really going to ignore Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks?

I think we've gotten /some/ information since then that contradicts that.

There's also Freeza. He beat Napapa who gave SSJ Caulifla a little trouble. How do you explain that when Freeza should be weaker than Base Caulifla.

Why would Freeza be weaker than base Caulifla? O_o

That's not really a valid answer. Base Copy Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks still happened.

Because she is on par with base Goku and the latter is way stronger than Final Freeza in base.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But how do you explain base Goku and Vegeta being that low? They should be tier B.

Are people really going to ignore Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks?

I think we've gotten /some/ information since then that contradicts that.

There's also Freeza. He beat Napapa who gave SSJ Caulifla a little trouble. How do you explain that when Freeza should be weaker than Base Caulifla.

Why would Freeza be weaker than base Caulifla? O_o

That's not really a valid answer. Base Copy Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks still happened.

Because she is on par with base Goku and the latter is way stronger than Final Freeza in base.

Actually, Freeza and Goku seem to be portrayed as relatively equal in their natural forms, same with their strongest forms. Besides Kaio-ken, the narrative seems to support the two basically being equals in every way.

[ZombieVito]

Actually, Freeza and Goku seem to be portrayed as relatively equal in their natural forms, same with their strongest forms. Besides Kaio-ken, the narrative seems to support the two basically being equals in every way.

Not really. It's implied Freeza only increased his Golden form power with his meditation.

[LowRyder2005]

But how do you explain base Goku and Vegeta being that low? They should be tier B.

Are people really going to ignore Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks?

I think we've gotten /some/ information since then that contradicts that.

There's also Freeza. He beat Napapa who gave SSJ Caulifla a little trouble. How do you explain that when Freeza should be weaker than Base Caulifla.

Why would Freeza be weaker than base Caulifla? O_o

Yeah, I don't understand if after seeing all of what's happened recently: either you conclude everyone who's supposed to surpass base Goku or did better against Goku or his equals than SS3 Gotenks (i.e. a Gohan who's weaker than Gohan in the Buu arc, Piccolo, Mr. Buu, #18, Roshi and the list grows) somehow leapfrogged everyone in the original manga by randomly training a few days/weeks/months, or the strengths involved in the fight in were not what we'd normally assume they were. I mean, what kind of rationalizations are we looking for?

- Goten/Trunks/Gotenks got weaker over time, much like a rusty SS Gohan couldn't beat a guy who as far as we know had reached a power level of 1,300,000 (because let's forget one and not the other).
- Goku and Vegeta were Saiyans Beyond God, a form between SS3 and God. A form that's also probably been retconned/ put on the shelf.
- Base Vegeta beats Gotenks in Super for the same reason Yamcha can give Super Perfect Cell a fair fight in Z.
- The writer of the filler arc somehow thought the base form was supposed to be as strong as a Super Saiyan God after ROF.
- The writer of the filler arc was drunk.
- The writer of the filler arc was beaten up by a rowdy Gotenks' cosplayer at some fan convention.
- Copy Vegeta was actually Purple Super Saiyan and and went easy against Goku in his Purple Base form.
- Gotenks got the Fusion wrong, and in reality the guy we saw on screen Tentrunk, a form which divides Gotenks' power by a factor of 1,000,000.

There was the guy some pages ago who indirectly showed this kind of problem pretty much perfectly: instead of outright ignoring the supposed logic behind why Goku turned SS against Gohan, he was at least "coherent" enough to bump Ultimate Gohan as someone who was some hundreds of times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, promoting the reasoning that Buu's absorptions had therefore to absolutely follow some kind of strange, variable multiplication rule. Not like these didn't leave more and more headscratchers in the story as a whole, that's the kind of retroactive consequences we're talking about - and just a little part of 'em - by taking Googeta vs. Gotenks and what happens after, supposedly, at face value.

[JazzMazz]

Here's a list of how I rank the universes in terms of strength in comparison to the previous arc. Please reply with any suggestions or improvements.

Universe 2
Strongest level: Unknown
Upper level:Current Super Saiyan level
Middle tier: Unknown
Lower tier: Unknown

I have been Observing and Calculating Universe 2's Power Levels for Sometime Now and these are My findings.

So far most all all the characters Levels are unknown but I have to break it down like this for those that have been shown in battle;

Vikal ~~~ Likely Goku-Base Level, Maybe SS 1 at best.
Rozie ~~~ To Early To tell, right Now Goku-Base Level, Maybe SS 1, need more story to know.
Jimeze ~~~ To Early To Tell, Right Now Fought SS-1 Goku for a Moment, Maybe SS 1 Tier, need more story to know.
Kakunsa ~~~ Was Doing Well against 17, Lowest SS3 Tier, Highest Somewhere in the are SSG-Tier.
Ribrianne ~~~ Easly Fought SS-Vegeta and Went Even with 17 with no signs of Fatigue, So ~~~ High Point in a Fight is Lower SSBlue Tier, has Possibility to Go Higher cause of Limits not yet tested yet!

So Strongest Level so Far is Lower Level SS-Blue Tier For Ribrianne, but She has the Potential to go Higher, That is what I see might happen, it is Up to Toei.

I put allot of thought into this for Universes 2 so It goes by Much Observations of Them, Care and Respect to Both Universe 2 and the Other Fighters especially Universe 7.

So it might look like this

Universe 2
Strongest level: Lower Level SS-Blue ~ Limits not yet Truly Tested
Upper level: SS3 ~ SSGod
Middle tier: SS 1
Lower tier: Base Goku Level

For reference, though this isn't an uncommon claim, Goku didn't need to use SSB against most of the fighters of universe 7, he was mainly doing to show off and motivate the members so he could see what they could do at their best.

Thats not to say that their were some characters bordering Goku's God form, but the jump is simply too much to assume and there is really nothing substantial to make me believe that any of the universe 7 warriors(besides the obvious ones like Vegeta and Freeza), had reached that level. Even Gohan shouldn't be anything close to that, espicially after he was being given problems by SS2 Goku.

[Doctor.]

Since everyone's doing a list, I may as well do one too. A lot of these placements are arbitrary, especially towards the lower tiers. Characters in bold are for reference.

[spoiler]Tier A:
Jiren
SSBKK Goku
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Freeza / Toppo
Hit
SSBKKx2 Goku (Champa arc)
SSG Goku / Dyspo

Tier B:
Berserker Kale
Freeza
Ultimate Gohan
SS Vegetto (Boo arc)
Android #17
SS3 Goku
Obuni (U10)

Tier C:
Kunshi (U11)
SS2 Goku / SS2 Vegeta
SS Kale
SS2 Caulifla
Mr. Boo
Ribrianne (U2)
Frost
Piccolo

Tier D:
Magetta
Maji Kayo (U3)
Kahseral (U11)
Rubalt (U10)
Nink (U4)
SS Goku / SS Vegeta
SS Caulifla
SS Cabba
Perfect Cell
Bergamo
Basil
Lavenda
Murichim (U10)
Napapa (U10)

Tier E:
Powered-up Ganos (U4)
Narirama (U3)
Android 18
Majora (U4)
Kakunsa (U2)
Shosa (U4)
Jimeze (U2)
Cocotte (U11)
Tupper (U11)
Cheppil (U9)
Zoiray (U11)
Kettol (U11)
Base Goku (fuck you) / Base Vegeta / Base Gohan
Base Caulifla
Base Cabba
Rozie (U2)
Botamo
Kuririn
Tenshinhan
Ganos (U4)
Vuon (U11)
SS Goku (Namek)
Brianne / Su Roas / Sanka Ku (U2)
Nigrisshi (U3)
Darkori (U4)
Hysopp (U9)
Hop (U9)
Roselle (U9)
Roshi
The Preecho (U3)
50% Freeza
Vikal (U2)
Caway (U4)
Lilibeu (U10)
Murisam (U10)
Mechiop (U10)
Oregano (U9)
Dium (U10)
Comfrey (U9)
Sorrel (U9)
Base Kale[/spoiler]

Fuck, those lower tiers are messy.

But how do you explain base Goku and Vegeta being that low? They should be tier B.

Are people really going to ignore Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks?

There's also Freeza. He beat Napapa who gave SSJ Caulifla a little trouble. How do you explain that when Freeza should be weaker than Base Caulifla.

Base Goku's strength has been retconned.

Freeza was equal to F arc base Goku, he's not equal to current base Goku who's much weaker.

There's no in-universe explanation but people just need to accept that the writers never portrayed Goku's strength consistently.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Here's a list of how I rank the universes in terms of strength in comparison to the previous arc. Please reply with any suggestions or improvements.

Universe 2
Strongest level: Unknown
Upper level:Current Super Saiyan level
Middle tier: Unknown
Lower tier: Unknown

I have been Observing and Calculating Universe 2's Power Levels for Sometime Now and these are My findings.

So far most all all the characters Levels are unknown but I have to break it down like this for those that have been shown in battle;

Vikal ~~~ Likely Goku-Base Level, Maybe SS 1 at best.
Rozie ~~~ To Early To tell, right Now Goku-Base Level, Maybe SS 1, need more story to know.
Jimeze ~~~ To Early To Tell, Right Now Fought SS-1 Goku for a Moment, Maybe SS 1 Tier, need more story to know.
Kakunsa ~~~ Was Doing Well against 17, Lowest SS3 Tier, Highest Somewhere in the are SSG-Tier.
Ribrianne ~~~ Easly Fought SS-Vegeta and Went Even with 17 with no signs of Fatigue, So ~~~ High Point in a Fight is Lower SSBlue Tier, has Possibility to Go Higher cause of Limits not yet tested yet!

So Strongest Level so Far is Lower Level SS-Blue Tier For Ribrianne, but She has the Potential to go Higher, That is what I see might happen, it is Up to Toei.

I put allot of thought into this for Universes 2 so It goes by Much Observations of Them, Care and Respect to Both Universe 2 and the Other Fighters especially Universe 7.

So it might look like this

Universe 2
Strongest level: Lower Level SS-Blue ~ Limits not yet Truly Tested
Upper level: SS3 ~ SSGod
Middle tier: SS 1
Lower tier: Base Goku Level

For reference, though this isn't an uncommon claim, Goku didn't need to use SSB against most of the fighters of universe 7, he was mainly doing to show off and motivate the members so he could see what they could do at their best.

Thats not to say that their were some characters bordering Goku's God form, but the jump is simply too much to assume and there is really nothing substantial to make me believe that any of the universe 7 warriors(besides the obvious ones like Vegeta and Freeza), had reached that level. Even Gohan shouldn't be anything close to that, espicially after he was being given problems by SS2 Goku.

While I have indeed heard these views and well and I do give respect to them as well I have so have some Respectful disagreements. Lets just 1st say it has become a Far Harder task to figure out power levels these days anymore with how SSJBlue has been defined, from the next level to be clear ki control, it can be used with lower level fighters like Krillin to test levels better then any other form.

However while maybe to some degree it might not have been to Necessary go all the time, it was still justified in some of these fights by my observations. Not only that I do take into account others I have seen online both here and other places like YouTube that put 17 and Gohan on pretty good levels. They are not 100%, but at Best 17 by others account can achieve a level close to mid level and Gohan is knoking on that door. I can't give 100% but really no-one can, it has become hard to figure this out since the defines on Red and Blue have become muddy, even more so with the start of this arc.

But that does not make me nerf my accounts I have seen either, I believe their is something to both how 17 and Gohan performed. YES, they are Not all Full Goku Level, only Vegeta and Frieza are, but that does not mean by both my observations and my research they are not knocking on his Beginning levels of SSJBlue form.

So while I give you respect to that view I still stick to my views on their Levels and in turn with that I use it to Judge how Unvierse 2's Ribrianne and Kakunsa fought so I can judge their levels too. Again, this is based on much of my own obseravation and research.

So whether we agree or not on the exact definition of their levels, the least we can say, but I still say more, is that 17, Gohan, Ribrianne and Kakunsa's power levels are nothing to sneeze at.

[JazzMazz]

I have been Observing and Calculating Universe 2's Power Levels for Sometime Now and these are My findings.

So far most all all the characters Levels are unknown but I have to break it down like this for those that have been shown in battle;

Vikal ~~~ Likely Goku-Base Level, Maybe SS 1 at best.
Rozie ~~~ To Early To tell, right Now Goku-Base Level, Maybe SS 1, need more story to know.
Jimeze ~~~ To Early To Tell, Right Now Fought SS-1 Goku for a Moment, Maybe SS 1 Tier, need more story to know.
Kakunsa ~~~ Was Doing Well against 17, Lowest SS3 Tier, Highest Somewhere in the are SSG-Tier.
Ribrianne ~~~ Easly Fought SS-Vegeta and Went Even with 17 with no signs of Fatigue, So ~~~ High Point in a Fight is Lower SSBlue Tier, has Possibility to Go Higher cause of Limits not yet tested yet!

So Strongest Level so Far is Lower Level SS-Blue Tier For Ribrianne, but She has the Potential to go Higher, That is what I see might happen, it is Up to Toei.

I put allot of thought into this for Universes 2 so It goes by Much Observations of Them, Care and Respect to Both Universe 2 and the Other Fighters especially Universe 7.

So it might look like this

Universe 2
Strongest level: Lower Level SS-Blue ~ Limits not yet Truly Tested
Upper level: SS3 ~ SSGod
Middle tier: SS 1
Lower tier: Base Goku Level

For reference, though this isn't an uncommon claim, Goku didn't need to use SSB against most of the fighters of universe 7, he was mainly doing to show off and motivate the members so he could see what they could do at their best.

Thats not to say that their were some characters bordering Goku's God form, but the jump is simply too much to assume and there is really nothing substantial to make me believe that any of the universe 7 warriors(besides the obvious ones like Vegeta and Freeza), had reached that level. Even Gohan shouldn't be anything close to that, espicially after he was being given problems by SS2 Goku.

While I have indeed heard these views and well and I do give respect to them as well I have so have some Respectful disagreements. Lets just 1st say it has become a Far Harder task to figure out power levels these days anymore with how SSJBlue has been defined, from the next level to be clear ki control, it can be used with lower level fighters like Krillin to test levels better then any other form.

However while maybe to some degree it might not have been to Necessary go all the time, it was still justified in some of these fights by my observations. Not only that I do take into account others I have seen online both here and other places like YouTube that put 17 and Gohan on pretty good levels. They are not 100%, but at Best 17 by others account can achieve a level close to mid level and Gohan is knoking on that door. I can't give 100% but really no-one can, it has become hard to figure this out since the defines on Red and Blue have become muddy, even more so with the start of this arc.

But that does not make me nerf my accounts I have seen either, I believe their is something to both how 17 and Gohan performed. YES, they are Not all Full Goku Level, only Vegeta and Frieza are, but that does not mean by both my observations and my research they are not knocking on his Beginning levels of SSJBlue form.

So while I give you respect to that view I still stick to my views on their Levels and in turn with that I use it to Judge how Unvierse 2's Ribrianne and Kakunsa fought so I can judge their levels too. Again, this is based on much of my own obseravation and research.

So whether we agree or not on the exact definition of their levels, the least we can say, but I still say more, is that 17, Gohan, Ribrianne and Kakunsa's power levels are nothing to sneeze at.

Though I do think that those fighters are indeed powerful, I feel like they are only really in the current SS to SS3 range of power. For example, Ribrianne and 17 are slightly greater than Goku's SS, however, I would say that Kakunsa is weaker or on par with Goku SS due to her being no real match for 17 once he got serious.
Gohan's level of power is confusing. His greater than a SS2 Goku, but judging by his performance, he'd still probably only be in the SS3 range.

[HeroR]

Base Goku's strength has been retconned.

Freeza was equal to F arc base Goku, he's not equal to current base Goku who's much weaker.

There's no in-universe explanation but people just need to accept that the writers never portrayed Goku's strength consistently.

Retcon is thrown around willy-nilly around here, especially when there is no in or out of universe evidence that Goku's base form is much weaker other than downplay.