The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[In Brightest Day]

Also it appears to me that Piccolo is struggling more than Vegeta and Trunks in the battle. Personally I don't think he is far behind Vegeta or Trunks, but I don't think he is equal to them either.

I share this opinion. If Piccolo is in fact seen standing after the fight with the Cell Junior, then it's pretty clear he wasn't horribly out-matched by them. Judging by how he looks I'd say that eventually he would have lost. IMO, the only one who would have been successful against the Cell Junior would have been Vegeta, and he would have been completely exhausted at the end of it. Even then, another one of them could have jumped in at any time. I mean, the Earthlings & Goku probably would have been near death long before Cell said they were allowed to finish them off.

I'm not sure why it's hard to believe Piccolo was close to SSJ Vegeta & Trunks at the Cell Games anyway. Piccolo had a gigantic lead over both of them before they entered the Rosat.

[Rocketman]

I'm not sure why it's hard to believe Piccolo was close to SSJ Vegeta & Trunks at the Cell Games anyway. Piccolo had a gigantic lead over both of them before they entered the Rosat.

Because they dwarfed him after one go in the chamber.



To just toss some percentages out off the cuff, let's say Goku at his best is 100%.

Gohan - 110%. While everyone immediately notices he's stronger than Goku, it's apparently not by much. Despite sensing his powerup, Cell demands for Goku to fight him again after knocking Gohan away, so Gohan isn't so overwhelmingly strong as to get Cell to focus on him as a new challenge immediately.

Vegeta - 80%. Personally, I think it fits his total breakdown after the Games if he actually did surpass Goku (or what he felt after Goku left the HTC) by a large amount and then still got trumped.

Trunks - 65%. Trunks just isn't as good at this as the others, having neither the elder Saiyans' experience or Gohan's potential.

Piccolo - 50%. To a point, it doesn't matter what percentage I put. He's too weak to influence the Games, but is still improved a lot over the Piccolo who tied #17.


Cell Juniors - 75%. Vegeta is the only one who can land a blow on a Cell Jr. The Jr recovers quickly and hits back, but Vegeta also is the only one to shrug off a Jr's attack. Trunks' attacks are blocked, and Piccolo just gets punched, but has enough strength to keep standing.

[Saiga]

Wait, what does "Vegeta ya Trunks" mean? I thought Fox666 just misspelled "and" when he said that xD

And I agree with Rocketman's assessment.

[Michsi]

Wait, what does "Vegeta ya Trunks" mean? I thought Fox666 just misspelled "and" when he said that xD

No, it's taken from Cell's statement in japanese where he uses the particle "ya" when he lists Trunks and Vegeta. "Ya" basically implies that there are others like the nouns that were listed. If he wanted the reader to believe it's just Vegeta and Trunks he should have used another type of particle like "to".

I always had the impression that Trunks was actually a little stronger than Vegeta.

In any case, I believe none of them could have defeated one Cell Jr. Vegeta gets hit once and he seems to lose confidence right from the start, which doesn't happen often with him.

[Saiga]

Wait, what does "Vegeta ya Trunks" mean? I thought Fox666 just misspelled "and" when he said that xD

No, it's taken from Cell's statement in japanese where he uses the particle "ya" when he lists Trunks and Vegeta. "Ya" basically implies that there are others like the nouns that were listed. If he wanted the reader to believe it's just Vegeta and Trunks he should have used another type of particle like "to".

I always had the impression that Trunks was actually a little stronger than Vegeta.

In any case, I believe none of them could have defeated one Cell Jr. Vegeta gets hit once and he seems to lose confidence right from the start, which doesn't happen often with him.

Why'd you think Trunks was stronger?

[Michsi]

He is the one I see trading blows with his opponent and seems hurt the least. It's an impression I got, especially because I had seen Vegeta claim it's hopeless and I hadn't seen Trunks do the same.

[Rocketman]

Viz's Vegeta says "This is ridiculous! I can't be having this much trouble with these little shrimps!", which gives me the opposite impression.

Also Vegeta is the only one to trade blows that I saw.

[Michsi]

Karlsen Version has him say something like "they are too strong". I don't know what the original says.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Also, Piccolo Daimao, I'd like to point out that it was only Trunks/Vegeta that could hold their own against them, not Piccolo as well. Unless you're counting the anime, of course.

No, you're wrong, and I'm only counting the manga. Forgive me for my anger, but I don't know how the hell people always get this wrong.

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell: “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

Not to mention that Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were the only ones that were still standing after the fight with the Cell Juniors, not lying on the ground defeated like Goku and the Earthlings. And no, don't tell me that Piccolo looked as if he was faring worse than Vegeta and Trunks, because we don't even get a panel of him fighting against the Cell Junior, and he looks just as bruised up as Vegeta and Trunks.

Super Perfect Cell is SSj2-tier, meaning that he'd wreck Super Saiyan Goku.

Hmmm. So you never see Goku as a Super Saiyan making it into SSj2 tier? Even right at the end of the series? Fair enough.

Realistically, how powerful do you see SSJ Goku being by the 28th Budokai?

Nope, I don't see regular Super Saiyan Goku ever making it into SSj2-tier. In the 10 years after Boo's destruction, he wasn't training in increased gravity or the afterlife. It was just basic, routine training in the mountains or something, which wouldn't have been any different that he'd gone through before, so he'd only make negligible increases in power. That's perhaps part of the reason why he wanted a new challenge, in the form of Oob. Vegeta no longer matched up to him, so he needed a fresh fighter with whom he could train with to not only perhaps mix up his training regime, but reveal more potential in the fighter so that he could eventually become a match for him.

I don't know how powerful I see SSj Goku by the 28th TB. But I still think he'd barely be able to make even a scratch on the weakest Super Saiyan around that time, Super Saiyan Gohan in the Boo arc.

[Saiga]

In that case it's more subjective than me being flat out wrong.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Viz's Vegeta says "This is ridiculous! I can't be having this much trouble with these little shrimps!"

For reference, this is the original line.

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P6.5
Vegeta: “Wh-what strength…! A bunch of little squirts like this [is doing this] to me…”

In that case it's more subjective than me being flat out wrong.

Yeah, maybe, but I still don't know how anyone can interpret that as anything other than Piccolo being able to hold his own against the Cell Junior, just because Cell may not have explicitly mentioned Piccolo when he stated that Vegeta and Trunks were barely fighting evenly. I understand that this subtle nuance of the Japanese language (e.g. "Vegeta ya Trunks") can be lost in translation, but we're still given the visual evidence of the manga pages and that chapter title page that Piccolo was standing at the end of the fight, along with Vegeta and Trunks.

If Cell's line doesn't necessarily mean that nobody but Vegeta and Trunks are fighting evenly, just that they're the first examples to come to mind, then the only other possible person that could be fighting evenly would be Piccolo, since we're shown that he's the only other one that was standing alongside Vegeta and Trunks at the end. Only the fact that they're the first examples to come to mind would slightly suggest that Piccolo may've been fighting less evenly with the Cell Juniors than Vegeta and Trunks.

[Fox666]

If he wanted the reader to believe it's just Vegeta and Trunks he should have used another type of particle like "to".

Aren't you over-analysing it? It may not have any special meaning.

Only the fact that they're the first examples to come to mind would slightly suggest that Piccolo may've been fighting less evenly with the Cell Juniors than Vegeta and Trunks.

To think about it, Cell wording "Vegeta ya Trunks are barely fighting evenly" perhaps refers to them as a group, not as individuals. So "barely fighting evenly" means that only Vegeta is actually on par with the Cell Jr., while Trunks and Piccolo are already out-classed.

[Rocketman]

There is a difference between "holding one's own" as in "actually fighting evenly" and "holding one's own" as in "able to keep standing".

[Michsi]

Aren't you over-analysing it? It may not have any special meaning.

Or not, since that small particle changes the meaning and it's there for a reason. I think even Herms once mentioned the difference. especially for the people in versus debates.

[Saiga]

Considering that Piccolo is the only other person that could be implied to be included in "Vegeta ya Trunks", wouldn't it be better to say "Vegeta, Trunks & Piccolo" (well, the Japanese equivalent) because that's a lot clearer?

We see Piccolo standing, but that doesn't mean he's able to fight evenly with them at all. I don't see any reason for Cell to imply that there are others fighting evenly than Vegeta and Trunks when he could just say Piccolo is as well.

[Michsi]

Considering that Piccolo is the only other person that could be implied to be included in "Vegeta ya Trunks", wouldn't it be better to say "Vegeta, Trunks & Piccolo" (well, the Japanese equivalent) because that's a lot clearer?

We see Piccolo standing, but that doesn't mean he's able to fight evenly with them at all. I don't see any reason for Cell to imply that there are others fighting evenly than Vegeta and Trunks when he could just say Piccolo is as well.

Yes it would have been, but if one tiny word is enough to imply that it's not just them, why complicate it? Vegeta and Trunks were the strongest out of that group at the time, so they were named but it isn't limited to them. The point of that statement was to make Gohan fear for Goku's life anyway, not really to determine who is stronger than who. It's made clearer with that cover page.

[MasterVampire]

I was talking to a friend today who seems to think that Broly and beat Perfect Cell.

I know there are many factors but the main reason I think Cell could EASILY win is by just blowing up the planet like Freeza.
No air = Broly is dead.

And even if Broly managed to shield himself in some bubble there are no planets near by to go to and he doesn't know instant transmission to get to places quicker.
And even then Cell could just keep chipping away at him while stuck in space.

[CatouttaHell]

Cell would beat Vegetto by that logic so that doesn't mean anything...

[hleV]

Cell would beat Vegetto by that logic so that doesn't mean anything...

Vegetto would teleport or simply fly to another planet while he still has air. Hell, maybe his barrier would help him. Or hell, maybe he doesn't even need air.

[Silkman3003]

What about this.

Cooler+ Mecha Frieza+ King Cold vs Trunks. Basically, it's a "what if Cooler actually joined Frieza+King Cold to hunt down Goku, but fought trunks instead". Goku doesn't interfear at all.

And Cooler instantly transforms into his Final Form.

Would Cooler make a difference in the fight against Future Trunks(obviously pre rosat)? Or would he still get stomped like Frieza?