Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

What would the power scale look like if we ignored Goku and Vegeta's (including Copy Vegeta) feats, and just based the scale on the other characters? I think it would look pretty reasonable and consistent.
Try it out.

There has definitely been a silent retcon or something along those lines. Goku and Vegeta (especially their base forms) just aren't reliable measuring sticks.

If not for a retcon (which I still personally deem to be the most convincing theory), part of me wouldn't withdraw from the list at hand the possibility that, from an in-universe perspective, some retroactive change about their base strength's was made feasible because of Gotenks' possible status of out-of-shape slob. Without real in in-universe narrative wrinkles, in short. As far as I can recall, the most concrete implications lending credence to the theory they possessed strength far superior to Z Gotenks' were Vegeta steamrolling Super's Gotenks and:

- Vegeta reaching "a level (of strength? Of mental awareness? Then again, every other time it happened appeared to be because of strength)" that enabled him to sense the gods' ki in the post-BOG.
- The weak and battered Z-fighters - if not for the "really weak and battered" Super Saiyan Gohan - being unable to face Tagoma and stand up to first Form Freeza. Except for Piccolo, who's eaten a Senzu, but still doesn't attack Freeza. Which isn't exactly impossible to reconcile, but...

Of course, we'd be talking about an incredible decrease for Gotenks (or for Goten and Trunks) and some sybilline writing for ROF (actually, let's count BOG as well), if a Goku who was weaker than Z's #18 could tangle with Freeza; but it definitely looks less narrative-breaking, to me, than arguing that everyone else had literally miraculous increases which the plot doesn't even remotely address -- not even starting about how anyone who argues for the aforementioned increases cannot really rationalize Goku vs. Gohan in ep. 75 without assumptions that go all the way back to the Buu saga and which to me appear equally, if not even more, contrived and counter-intuitive. You could theoretically make a power level list that "works" in that regard from ROF to finish by "nerfing" Gotenks and the Z-fighters against Freeza (because of having no stamina left and such), with Piccolo overestimating non-Golden Freeza's true power. Then again, we could all agree there's a very thin line between a retcon and "connotations so subtle everyone missed or would have have almost surely never reached otherwise". Putting myself in the producers' shoes, however, I could see them not fretting over possible contradictions for some leeway like this they - possibily indirectly - gave themselves.

[Marlowe89]

Vegeta vs Hop was just due to teamwork hax, it says nothing about her power. Goku vs Gohan was an outlier. As Gohan even in SSJ2 was inferior to Piccolo, who even Base Goku was able to tank a heavily amped technique from (albeit with difficulty, but still).

"Teamwork hax" is just a cop-out argument that was thoroughly refuted the moment Goku and Vegeta went Super Saiyan and stomped everyone on the team. The scene says plenty about her power and how it relates to Vegeta's power because they were briefly engaged in a one-on-one encounter. If she was capable of putting Vegeta on the ropes, there's no reason to assume that someone like Gotenks -- a character who is demonstrably enormously stronger -- shouldn't do the same.

Hard to call Goku vs. Gohan an outlier if it's consistent with everything else that implies they're just not THAT strong. Therefore, that old ass scene in the Copy Vegeta arc being the outlier is the most reasonable conclusion.

Bergamo fought on par with Base Goku who is in turn stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Basil on the other hand was beaten mercilessly by Buu and still lost upon being powered up.

I've repeatedly acknowledged the Copy Vegeta scene and explained why I think it (and by extension RoF, for reasons I've made clear) is overrided by the current overarching scaling. My point though was that there's nothing in the show that suggests Bergamo vastly overshadows his brothers by means of direct comparisons, and even if we're using indirect comparisons then there's, well, literally everything in the tournament and episodes prior to the tournament where the base Saiyans are struggling with characters they should be just swatting away if they're as strong as you're implying.

Shosa being a "one and done" in the narrative doesn't automatically put him in the bottom tiers of the tournament.

[Bullza]

My point though was that there's nothing in the show that suggests Bergamo vastly overshadows his brothers by means of direct comparisons

Well they did say Bergamo was the strongest. By how much exactly of course they wouldn't specify but it makes it a possibility.

Shosa being a "one and done" in the narrative doesn't automatically put him in the bottom tiers of the tournament.

No but I can't really see random fighter #67 who had about 4 minutes of screentime being on par with Bergamo, Basil and Lavender together.

Goku held his own against three proper characters, the strongest actually in their universe. One of which gave Buu some trouble, one gave Super Saiyan Gohan some trouble and the other is even stronger still. Meanwhile Android 18 should have lost to the one off Shosa and needed help to beat him.


For about a year and a half people kept going around in circles with this two base theory and all it ended up being for nothing because it was never a thing apparently. I don't think people should be so quick to start up the retcon theory now, not when there's only a small handful of odd things in a Tournament where there's supposed to be more to it than power anyway.

[LowRyder2005]

As someone who leans towards the idea they simply retconned things, I've entertained a little the thought of making an argument for the "super-strong" base to see how high it might really stack. Trying not to contradict other clear-cut stuff or statements in the process, that is. Assuming Gotenks didn't change in strength and starting off the premises such as "the base is only one and its strength can only increase over time", carefully trying to keep everyone as high as possible we'd end up with something similar to this.

Piccolo (Buu arc): 0,5
Basil: 1 (assuming it's not, like, far lower)
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (Buu arc): 2
Drugged Basil: 2,5
Good Buu: 3
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 25
Super Buu: 25 ("he's equal to Gotenks")
Base Goku: 30
Super Saiyan Gohan (ep. 75): 40
Piccolo (current): 45 (?)
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (ep. 75 and at least before ep. 90): 80
Super Buu: 80 ("he's much stronger than Gotenks; concocted his plan by keeping the act together because he had sensed Gohan's growing power")
Ultimate Gohan (Buu Arc): 100
Super Buu + Gotenks: 150 (hypothesizing it's not a simple addition; alternatively, base Super Buu being actually overwhelmingly stronger than Gotenks, as long as he was inferior to Gohan)
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,500
Super Buu + Gohan: from around 1,200 to 10,000 (trying to make the increases linear, and depending on how Buu's absorptions work in general)

It still wouldn't really make sense with pretty much anything of what's happening in the tournament, since the current base Goku wants to get out of the pickle against Basil/Lavenda/Bergamo ganging on him he could have literally poked to death at the very least Basil, evening the odds a little. Before the tournament, it could hypothetically make sense if we start off the assumption Gohan (still, "somehow") became abnormally stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in general, augment the distance between Gotenks and Gohan, etc.

And, well, obviously there's Piccolo "somehow" becoming a monster by DB's standards through supposedly unimportant, off-screen training -- even though back in the Buu saga he wouldn't lift a finger to train by himself in the ROSAT and preferred to deputize Goten and Trunks with the task even before Fusion (this could be justified since we could easily assume Piccolo might have operated under imperfect information, but seriously: he could finger-flick Buu by training less than a year by himself and didn't know? Talk about convenient). Ditto for Gohan.
In short, not impossible, but already hard to believe (plus the tournament ends up indirectly being entirely comprised of everlasting PIS, and... well, I don't know if we wanted to go that far). Oh, and yeah, #18's case especially.

I honestly think even a hypothesis like the one above would only benefit (in turn, however, this makes the very same theory even more pronouncedly arbitrary as any: one could easily say Gotenks regressed much more) if we assumed Gotenks got weaker. Even if I had to make a theory about base Goku's and #18's power increasing manyfold, I'd probably set at most for Goku arriving to the level of a Mastered Super Saiyan in base (Cell Game), with #18 somewhat above that, and Gotenks and, well, Gohan regressing a lot. Would sound just a little more believable in general, instead of everyone amassing impossible gains and/or concluding the tournament should be entirely factored out.

Technically, though, the thing is that there's still a retcon, because Goku ends up being much weaker than SSG regardless (SSG > SS Vegito and Buuhan). Which leads me to think that it might be really impossible to claim they haven't silently retracted their word on many premises already (BOG SS Goku being almost as strong as Super Saiyan God), that had supposedly built the series' hierarchy up until the U6 arc, or after, all the same. So yeah, regardless, a retcon already took place. If anything, what should reasonably be open to debate is just the severity of it.

No but I can't really see random fighter #67 who had about 4 minutes of screentime being on par with Bergamo, Basil and Lavender together.

I can wholly understand this, but I just wouldn't know about that here. Following "base Cabba and base Caulifla = not that far off from base Vegeta = super powerful base", I'm pretty sure an equivalent of Napapa would already always end up above them (or, if not, around them). And Napapa is an afterthought of the tournament's character: someone whose high point is pushing Super Saiyan Caulifla to unceremoniously drop him with some minimum-mid effort (and who was used for some laughs against Final Form Freeza). Now that I think about it I even have Nink a little above them -- and the argument he might have been super-strong is not, well, at least completely devoid of merit from an in-universe perspective.

[Bullza]

So this is based on the summaries for Episodes 106-109. Better put it in a spoiler tag just encase though.

[spoiler]1. Frost goes after Roshi after he's ordered to beat a Universe 7 fighter. That probably means Roshi is the weakest because I could see Frost being a little cowardly like that. Roshi should be the weakest anyway.

2. Gohan has a tough fight with someone named Jemez? Is Jemez supposed to the Yadrat one? Makes sense I suppose as Goku was Super Saiyan when he was confronting him.

3. Ribrianne fights Goku at full power. Ribrianne looked like she was on par with Android 17 so depending on the form Goku uses to fight her then it might tell us how strong Android 17 really is.

4. Jiren hasn't been using his full power up to yet, which would include when he beat Kale instantly and he finally does and overwhelms Goku and the other warrior (Ribrianne?) with "unthinkably colossal Ki". Whether that does anything to suggest he's above Merged Zamasu or Beerus is anyone's guess.[/spoiler]

[dragon boss z]

Just to chip in my two cents. Though Trunks could have taken Freeza by surprise, there is no reason Cold could have been. Cold was stated to be comparable to Freeza but when he tried to attack Trunks he was instantly annihilated. I think that more than confirms that Trunks was a fair bit above Goku from Namek.

King Cold's power was compared to a highly suppressed Frieza. Also we don't know if King Cold can transform or not or if he was at full power. All we know is the King Cold we see is comparable to a mecha Frieza who can still get much stronger (Gohan's words) and both are weaker than ssj Trunks. I agree Trunks was a bit better than Namek Goku though. Maybe 10-20% stronger. I don't think any more than that though.

I could definitely see that, everyone was confusing Trunks ki with Goku's so it's not that hard to say they were at least comparable. Though later on Trunks does state that even the powered up Goku that Trunks spars against wouldn't stand a chance against the Androids from his future, which were far weaker than the Androids that actually appeared in the present timeline, who were way stronger than Trunks was as a Super Saiyan. I think it wouldn't be a stretch to assume 17(who is stated in the manga to be more powerful than 18), was at least 2-3 times more powerful than Freeza.

Trunks made it sound like he could put up a fight, at least in a 1v1 against the future androids, so those I would put lower than 2x Frieza. The current androids who are stated to be stronger could be over 2x Frieza.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I personally have the future androids around 200 mil and the current androids around 220 mil. Though anything around the 2-3x Frieza range makes sense.

[JazzMazz]

King Cold's power was compared to a highly suppressed Frieza. Also we don't know if King Cold can transform or not or if he was at full power. All we know is the King Cold we see is comparable to a mecha Frieza who can still get much stronger (Gohan's words) and both are weaker than ssj Trunks. I agree Trunks was a bit better than Namek Goku though. Maybe 10-20% stronger. I don't think any more than that though.

I could definitely see that, everyone was confusing Trunks ki with Goku's so it's not that hard to say they were at least comparable. Though later on Trunks does state that even the powered up Goku that Trunks spars against wouldn't stand a chance against the Androids from his future, which were far weaker than the Androids that actually appeared in the present timeline, who were way stronger than Trunks was as a Super Saiyan. I think it wouldn't be a stretch to assume 17(who is stated in the manga to be more powerful than 18), was at least 2-3 times more powerful than Freeza.

Trunks made it sound like he could put up a fight, at least in a 1v1 against the future androids, so those I would put lower than 2x Frieza. The current androids who are stated to be stronger could be over 2x Frieza.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I personally have the future androids around 200 mil and the current androids around 220 mil. Though anything around the 2-3x Frieza range makes sense.

Well, I'm glad we can reach some form of agreement.

[LowRyder2005]

So this is based on the summaries for Episodes 106-109. Better put it in a spoiler tag just encase though.

[spoiler]1. Frost goes after Roshi after he's ordered to beat a Universe 7 fighter. That probably means Roshi is the weakest because I could see Frost being a little cowardly like that. Roshi should be the weakest anyway.

2. Gohan has a tough fight with someone named Jemez? Is Jemez supposed to the Yadrat one? Makes sense I suppose as Goku was Super Saiyan when he was confronting him.

3. Ribrianne fights Goku at full power. Ribrianne looked like she was on par with Android 17 so depending on the form Goku uses to fight her then it might tell us how strong Android 17 really is.

4. Jiren hasn't been using his full power up to yet, which would include when he beat Kale instantly and he finally does and overwhelms Goku and the other warrior (Ribrianne?) with "unthinkably colossal Ki". Whether that does anything to suggest he's above Merged Zamasu or Beerus is anyone's guess.[/spoiler]

Yes, Jimeze is the Yardrat. So far we've only seen him circling around Super Saiyan Goku and getting kicked by base Caulifla, which isn't really revealing.

[Marlowe89]

I can wholly understand this, but I just wouldn't know about that here. Following "base Cabba and base Caulifla = not that far off from base Vegeta = super powerful base", I'm pretty sure an equivalent of Napapa would already always end up above them (or, if not, around them). And Napapa is an afterthought of the tournament's character: someone whose high point is pushing Super Saiyan Caulifla to unceremoniously drop him with some minimum-mid effort (and who was used for some laughs against Final Form Freeza). Now that I think about it I even have Nink a little above them -- and the argument he might have been super-strong is not, well, at least completely devoid of merit from an in-universe perspective.

Hell, you could even throw Maji=Kayo into that list. His showings in the tournament have been pretty damn solid so far, although it's clear that the writers aren't giving him a whole lot of importance in any sort of episodic context. He's just... there. Of course he's not down for the count just yet, but I don't foresee him getting any major treatment in the next episode either.

How "random" a fighter might seem doesn't really determine how strong or weak they actually are at all, especially in a wildly chaotic battle royale format like this one. Nothing suggested that 18 needed assistance to defeat Shosa anyway considering that it was the latter who resorted to cheap tactics in that fight after getting casually knocked around by the former.

[Miracles]

I haven't re-read my reply to you, honestly, but I don't understand what the point is really supposed to be.
Yes, Beerus is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks, enraged Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku. They are all commonly accepted staples and for pretty good reasons. Monaka-Beerus - which has also been discussed thoroughly in the very last pages - is still irrelevant: Beerus already needs to be operating some kind of extreme suppression, for starters (some 0,1% of his full power, since the old multipliers presumably still apply). The visual feats are intrinsincally ambiguous (since they always depend on the level of ki one is exerting: a suppressed Goku could "fight" on equal terms with Krillin, or even Chiaotzu) and there's no unambiguous indication, like a clear statement, that he's using more power than what he used against Super Saiyan 3 Goku or Super Saiyan Gotenks.

The most we have is the fact Earth was in jeopardy (so, Beerus' strength should be higher than or could easily reach the lowest planet-busters'), Beeru's laughing hysterically because of the fact he can't k.o. Goku at his current, extremely low power output, but it's hardly conclusive either. Beerus could k.o. a base Goku who's 1/400 of SS3 Goku by raising his power from ~0,1% to some ~0,2%; so the only rational conclusion is that something was forcing Beerus to keep his power under that treshold. Because of that he was unable to k.o. base Goku (who's weak compared to SSG Goku, a multiplier superior to SS3, in any scenario, the stronger than SS3 Gotenks-base some still adhere to included), which prompted him to throw a fit: I'd probably say the intended factor at play was that he couldn't get out of the costume or ruin it.

Besides, the power-scaling and authorial intent heavily implies base Goku today is weaker than #18 and Good Buu (among other stuff that should still change the hierarchy of those who start off the assumption that everyone above base Goku is above an untransformed Freza, like the same Freeza being almost surely above, if not far above, base Cabba).

Beerus just casually owns Gotenks, yet puts more effort against Base Goku and later Gotenks 3 gets beat by Base Vegeta whom base Goku equaled. It's logical.

[Marlowe89]

Beerus just casually owns Gotenks

Yeah, just like Beerus would casually own base Goku any day of the week. What's your point?

[Miracles]

Beerus just casually owns Gotenks

Yeah, just like Beerus would casually own base Goku any day of the week. What's your point?

Beerus used more energy to fight base Goku hence why Copy Vegeta beat Gotenks 3.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus just casually owns Gotenks

Yeah, just like Beerus would casually own base Goku any day of the week. What's your point?

Beerus used more energy to fight base Goku hence why Copy Vegeta beat Gotenks 3.

No. To be more precise, there's no statement that clarifies how much amount of power Beerus used, and most certainly there's nothing that clears the ambiguity regarding how the ki he's using there compares to the ki he used against SS3 Goku in the very beginning of Super. Freeza could karate-chop Goku one time, but he could also lower his power enough to get hurt or fight on equal terms with the much weaker base Goku if he wanted to (case in point: he could also karate-chop base Goku and fight on more equal-ish terms with the weaker Piccolo, if he wanted to). The only thing which would remotely suggest some extra effort on Beerus' part could be his purple ki, but as far as we know it's only an indication he's getting mad: he gets purple and fights against characters who are much weaker than Goku in the BOG movie.

In short, if you want to rely on visual feats, characters can lower their power to any level they want and trade punches; if you want to say Beerus used quite "some power", the fact is that he didn't: Beerus' power already needs to be pathetically low -- literally in the 0,1% range. The trouble he has in defeating and not-destroying a clueless base Goku is entirely a self-imposed limit or a byproduct of the circumstances, and there's no merit on Goku's part.

I don't really see the point of splitting hairs over it as for the most part the fight is a gag (in fact, I think it reminds me somewhat of that time when people started arguing an untransformed Goku and Piccolo had equal speed because they could farm some crops at the same time), but the scene is completely irrelevant from an in-universe perspective. If we want to argue it's supposed to fit with the ROF theme they probably had borrowed from the movie it's another matter and more understandable; however, it still wouldn't make the scene stand on its own as a separate proof, but just make it a dependancy of ROF. The scene in itself works in any scenario because the strength of the base Goku seen there is a non-factor.

P.S. "Hence why" is a pleonasm. It's better if you use one or the other.

[Miracles]

Yeah, just like Beerus would casually own base Goku any day of the week. What's your point?

Beerus used more energy to fight base Goku hence why Copy Vegeta beat Gotenks 3.

No. To be more precise, there's no statement that clarifies how much amount of power Beerus used, and most certainly there's nothing that clears the ambiguity regarding how the ki he's using there compares to the ki he used against SS3 Goku in the very beginning of Super. Freeza could karate-chop Goku one time, but he could also lower his power enough to get hurt or fight on equal terms with the much weaker base Goku if he wanted to (case in point: he could also karate-chop base Goku and fight on more equal-ish terms with the weaker Piccolo, if he wanted to). The only thing which would remotely suggest some extra effort on Beerus' part could be his purple ki, but as far as we know it's only an indication he's getting mad: he gets purple and fights against characters who are much weaker than Goku in the BOG movie.

In short, if you want to rely on visual feats, characters can lower their power to any level they want and trade punches; if you want to say Beerus used quite "some power", the fact is that he didn't: Beerus' power already needs to be pathetically low -- literally in the 0,1% range. The trouble he has in defeating and not-destroying a clueless base Goku is entirely a self-imposed limit or a byproduct of the circumstances, and there's no merit on Goku's part.

I don't really see the point of splitting hairs over it as for the most part the fight is a gag (in fact, I think it reminds me somewhat of that time when people started arguing an untransformed Goku and Piccolo had equal speed because they could farm some crops at the same time), but the scene is completely irrelevant from an in-universe perspective. If we want to argue it's supposed to fit with the ROF theme they probably had borrowed from the movie it's another matter and more understandable; however, it still wouldn't make the scene stand on its own as a separate proof, but just make it a dependancy of ROF. The scene in itself works in any scenario because the strength of the base Goku seen there is a non-factor.

P.S. "Hence why" is a pleonasm. It's better if you use one or the other.

Beerus just SPANKED Gotenks but he actually had to put up a fight against base Goku. That's how you tell the difference in strength used between the two.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus used more energy to fight base Goku hence why Copy Vegeta beat Gotenks 3.

No. To be more precise, there's no statement that clarifies how much amount of power Beerus used, and most certainly there's nothing that clears the ambiguity regarding how the ki he's using there compares to the ki he used against SS3 Goku in the very beginning of Super. Freeza could karate-chop Goku one time, but he could also lower his power enough to get hurt or fight on equal terms with the much weaker base Goku if he wanted to (case in point: he could also karate-chop base Goku and fight on more equal-ish terms with the weaker Piccolo, if he wanted to). The only thing which would remotely suggest some extra effort on Beerus' part could be his purple ki, but as far as we know it's only an indication he's getting mad: he gets purple and fights against characters who are much weaker than Goku in the BOG movie.

In short, if you want to rely on visual feats, characters can lower their power to any level they want and trade punches; if you want to say Beerus used quite "some power", the fact is that he didn't: Beerus' power already needs to be pathetically low -- literally in the 0,1% range. The trouble he has in defeating and not-destroying a clueless base Goku is entirely a self-imposed limit or a byproduct of the circumstances, and there's no merit on Goku's part.

I don't really see the point of splitting hairs over it as for the most part the fight is a gag (in fact, I think it reminds me somewhat of that time when people started arguing an untransformed Goku and Piccolo had equal speed because they could farm some crops at the same time), but the scene is completely irrelevant from an in-universe perspective. If we want to argue it's supposed to fit with the ROF theme they probably had borrowed from the movie it's another matter and more understandable; however, it still wouldn't make the scene stand on its own as a separate proof, but just make it a dependancy of ROF. The scene in itself works in any scenario because the strength of the base Goku seen there is a non-factor.

P.S. "Hence why" is a pleonasm. It's better if you use one or the other.

Beerus just SPANKED Gotenks but he actually had to put up a fight against base Goku. That's how you tell the difference in strength used between the two.

*sigh* You are not really following me, are you? Beerus could have also spanked base Goku at any time if he only wanted, since the full extent of base Goku's strength is literally much less than Beerus' 1%.

[Miracles]

No. To be more precise, there's no statement that clarifies how much amount of power Beerus used, and most certainly there's nothing that clears the ambiguity regarding how the ki he's using there compares to the ki he used against SS3 Goku in the very beginning of Super. Freeza could karate-chop Goku one time, but he could also lower his power enough to get hurt or fight on equal terms with the much weaker base Goku if he wanted to (case in point: he could also karate-chop base Goku and fight on more equal-ish terms with the weaker Piccolo, if he wanted to). The only thing which would remotely suggest some extra effort on Beerus' part could be his purple ki, but as far as we know it's only an indication he's getting mad: he gets purple and fights against characters who are much weaker than Goku in the BOG movie.

In short, if you want to rely on visual feats, characters can lower their power to any level they want and trade punches; if you want to say Beerus used quite "some power", the fact is that he didn't: Beerus' power already needs to be pathetically low -- literally in the 0,1% range. The trouble he has in defeating and not-destroying a clueless base Goku is entirely a self-imposed limit or a byproduct of the circumstances, and there's no merit on Goku's part.

I don't really see the point of splitting hairs over it as for the most part the fight is a gag (in fact, I think it reminds me somewhat of that time when people started arguing an untransformed Goku and Piccolo had equal speed because they could farm some crops at the same time), but the scene is completely irrelevant from an in-universe perspective. If we want to argue it's supposed to fit with the ROF theme they probably had borrowed from the movie it's another matter and more understandable; however, it still wouldn't make the scene stand on its own as a separate proof, but just make it a dependancy of ROF. The scene in itself works in any scenario because the strength of the base Goku seen there is a non-factor.

P.S. "Hence why" is a pleonasm. It's better if you use one or the other.

Beerus just SPANKED Gotenks but he actually had to put up a fight against base Goku. That's how you tell the difference in strength used between the two.

*sigh* You are not really following me, are you? Beerus could have also spanked base Goku at any time if he only wanted, since the full extent of base Goku's strength is literally much less than Beerus' 1%.

That's not true. Beerus powered up a few times against base Goku trading blows with him unlike Gotenks whom he spanked holding back much more.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus just SPANKED Gotenks but he actually had to put up a fight against base Goku. That's how you tell the difference in strength used between the two.

*sigh* You are not really following me, are you? Beerus could have also spanked base Goku at any time if he only wanted, since the full extent of base Goku's strength is literally much less than Beerus' 1%.

That's not true. Beerus powered up a few times against base Goku trading blows with him unlike Gotenks whom he spanked holding back much more.

Goku's Super Saiyan 2 already makes his ki flare up "many tens of times"; his Kaioken makes the power ten times that amount. Since Goku can't beat Beerus with that amount of power, Goku's base is already much inferior to Beerus' 1% even if we limited ourselves to stacking a rather conservatively low (and arbitrary) SS2 and KK * 10 on top of each other.

Realistically speaking, Goku's base compared to Beerus is astronomically lower than Beerus' 1%, since we're entirely factoring out Super Saiyan Blue and God, which are still inferior to Beerus. A more reasonable esteem would make Beerus many thousands of times stronger, thus making base Goku... well, some 0,0001%? Or something with a couple of extra sets of zeroes? Again, as little sense as it could make, this is just a matter of piecing together what Super tells you.

[Marlowe89]

Beerus just SPANKED Gotenks but he actually had to put up a fight against base Goku. That's how you tell the difference in strength used between the two.

I like how you keep making the same exact reply to a post that already addresses every point you've made over and over. Are you even reading or following anything in this discussion at all?

This is BASE Goku we're talking about. Just as, say, Super Saiyan Blue Goku stomps his base self, so too would Beerus using anything remotely close to his real strength utterly obliterate him with no effort on his part.

[Miracles]

Goku's Super Saiyan 2 already makes his ki flare up "many tens of times"; his Kaioken makes the power ten times that amount. Since Goku can't beat Beerus with that amount of power, Goku's base is already much inferior to Beerus' 1% even if we limited ourselves to stacking a rather conservatively low (and arbitrary) SS2 and KK * 10 on top of each other.

Realistically speaking, Goku's base compared to Beerus is astronomically lower than Beerus' 1%, since we're entirely factoring out Super Saiyan Blue and God, which are still inferior to Beerus. A more reasonable esteem would make Beerus many thousands of times stronger, thus making base Goku... well, some 0,0001%? Or something with a couple of extra sets of zeroes? Again, as little sense as it could make, this is just a matter of piecing together what Super tells you.

None of this changes the fact that Beerus had to use more energy and effort to battle base Goku [who has powered up due to god powers] unlike Gotenks.
Gotenks getting stomped by copy Vegeta is logical based on this fact alone.

I like how you keep making the same exact reply to a post that already addresses every point you've made over and over. Are you even reading or following anything in this discussion at all?

This is BASE Goku we're talking about. Just as, say, Super Saiyan Blue Goku stomps his base self, so too would Beerus using anything remotely close to his real strength utterly obliterate him with no effort on his part.

You're the one not following the discussion between Lowryder and I.
The convo has nothing to do with Beerus being able to smash Goku's base easily.
Only a goof would contend that Beerus couldn't.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus just SPANKED Gotenks but he actually had to put up a fight against base Goku. That's how you tell the difference in strength used between the two.

I like how you keep making the same exact reply to a post that already addresses every point you've made over and over. Are you even reading or following anything in this discussion at all?

This is BASE Goku we're talking about. Just as, say, Super Saiyan Blue Goku stomps his base self, so too would Beerus using anything remotely close to his real strength utterly obliterate him with no effort on his part.

Now that I think about it, if we're searching for more concrete evidence - or semi-conclusive proof about inconclusiveness - as a matter of fact, we do have some.
I mean, we already have a Beerus without aura who's supposedly stronger than the Beerus dressed as Monaka with the big, flashy aura. That's because Super Saiyan God has been confirmed as a separate state above base and Super Saiyan 3, and Beerus can fight him without needing to flash his purple aura for much of the fight.

In short, this Beerus:


Should be using much, much more strength than this Beerus.


I think this just goes to reconfirm yet one more time that there's no necessary correlation between aura and strength (as if the producers really cared about being consistent, for starters).
... Or even reinforce the retcon hypothesis in general, in my opinion, as things do technically fall at least a little more in line - as usual - if we assumed base Goku at that point was "stronger" than a Super Saiyan God by keeping the power and training more.

None of this changes the fact that Beerus had to use more energy and effort to battle base Goku [who has powered up due to god powers] rather than Gotenks.
Gotenks getting pwned by copy Vegeta is logical based on this fact alone.

The point is, like I already said many times by now, that even assuming that Goku did vastly "power up", Monaka-Beerus is irrelevant. Whatever Beerus does against him, or whatever Goku does is as relevant as base Goku doing something to final form Freeza on Namek and then a possibly weaker character doing better because Freeza is donning a a costume he totally can't break and/or goofing around.

Most importantly: the crucial point is that Beerus is not outright "using more energy". That's just an assumption. He could've just felt he needed to keep his ki at an even lower output for whatever reason; in which case he could've kept his ki lower than he did against SS3 Goku. We have also already clarified that flaring up his ki is either questionable or inconsistent, and that attacking Goku head-on and Goku surviving are as easily achievable as Freeza lowering his power to Roshi levels, fighting Roshi and then spanking the much more powerful Krillin out of a whim. Using in-universe logic instead of analyzing possible authorial intent, absolutely nothing of what Beerus does in that scene alone is really quantifiable in certain terms, not even in comparison to Beerus vs. Gotenks, Beerus vs. Goku or whatever. The only reason you're keeping this type of argument up is because your guts tell you they wrote the scene with the idea Goku had to be really strong (which I'm not really against, but that's beside the point).

Other than that, it's obvious that if you start off the premise that base Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, the scene can possibly work if both Beerus and Goku are hitting some "stronger than Gotenks" treshold. It still doesn't make the scenes "two proofs"; one is a possible "proof", and another one is just a possible logical consequence. "Proofs" need first and foremost to stand on their own, generally speaking, without logical dependency from other proofs (otherwise, at least one is not a proof, and just "part of a theory").

You're the one not following the discussion between Lowryder and I.

Just wanna leave a friendly remark here, in that I feel he's (at bare minimum) completely right when he implies I'm just being dragged (?) to reword the same concept over and over. I thought my entire stance should've been clear-ish at least about two posts ago, if not for the fact that Monaka-Beerus had already been analyzed at least half-a-dozen of times with the same arguments and respective, unchanging counter-arguments about its indeterminateness.